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  1. #21
    Okay then. ;/

    Why can't we have nice things.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Azortharion View Post
    You're not really contributing anything but speculation or dramafood (as evident by how you insist on Crit > Haste > Mastery because it's not that much worse than a Haste-focused build). It's not really contributing anything useful and just makes for drama at this point (because it has been discussed extensively in this thread: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1448538-bm-bis-list which everyone worth their salt should check out because there's actually real data (omg) over there.
    real data is simming things over and over again until you get the results you want

    heard it here first guys

    Also please point out where I was wrong

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    real data is simming things over and over again until you get the results you want

    heard it here first guys

    Also please point out where I was wrong
    Please point out where you were right
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
    Please point out where you were right
    haste loses value at a higher rate than crit on movement heavy fights since pet autos reset if the boss is out of range at the time when it goes off.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    haste loses value at a higher rate than crit on movement heavy fights since pet autos reset if the boss is out of range at the time when it goes off.
    That is dumb in practice, in theory, and it is dumb-sounding and even if it was true (which someone explained to you in detail how it wasn't before yet you still insist on it) it would not be worth optimizing for any reason.

    1. Immerseus doesn't move.
    2. Protectors don't move that much.
    3. Norushen is stationary.
    4. Sha is stationary.
    5. Galakras adds are mostly stationary.
    6. Iron Juggernaut is stationary.
    7. Shamans move so little(edit: slowly) you hardly lose any attacks at all.
    8. Nazgrim generally doesn't move.
    9. Malkorok doesn't move.
    10. Spoils adds except the big ones are usually tanked where they spawned so the only pet movement is moving to actual mobs and not chasing anything.
    11. Thok moves, but only 30% of the time and until he's done Fixate a lot you don't lose attacks.
    12. Blackfuse isn't moved significantly.
    13. Paragon bosses are usually tanked stationary.
    14. Garrosh moves, but slowly. -Quite- slowly, actually, so slowly that your pet runs faster.
    Last edited by Azortharion; 2014-03-06 at 11:23 AM.

  6. #26
    The Patient Thotor's Avatar
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    Please don't feed the troll. That debate was already done before.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Azortharion View Post
    That is dumb in practice, in theory, and it is dumb-sounding and even if it was true (which someone explained to you in detail how it wasn't before yet you still insist on it) it would not be worth optimizing for any reason.

    1. Immerseus doesn't move.
    2. Protectors don't move that much.
    3. Norushen is stationary.
    4. Sha is stationary.
    5. Galakras adds are mostly stationary.
    6. Iron Juggernaut is stationary.
    7. Shamans move so little(edit: slowly) you hardly lose any attacks at all.
    8. Nazgrim generally doesn't move.
    9. Malkorok doesn't move.
    10. Spoils adds except the big ones are usually tanked where they spawned so the only pet movement is moving to actual mobs and not chasing anything.
    11. Thok moves, but only 30% of the time and until he's done Fixate a lot you don't lose attacks.
    12. Blackfuse isn't moved significantly.
    13. Paragon bosses are usually tanked stationary.
    14. Garrosh moves, but slowly. -Quite- slowly, actually, so slowly that your pet runs faster.
    None of the explanations given in that thread had any sound argument behind it. They were mostly: "look at ma sims" and "you're wrong cause I said so".

    1. Immerseus doesn't move but the adds sure do.
    2. Protectors don't move, correct.
    3. Norushen is stationary but if you're at the point where you can just leave your pet on the boss you've outgeared the encounter and the whole gearing thing is moot.
    4. Sha is stationary yes.
    5. If your job is to stand at the bottom and aoe then yeah I guess.
    6. Correct
    7. Shamans move sporadically because sometimes the tanks have to move while they are channeling spells, when they finish channeling they run at a speed where the pet cannot match.
    8. Same thing as norushen, if you're not switching your pet you're outgearing encounter and stat priorities become irrelevant.
    9. Yes
    10. Killing the big ones is half the fight, what about the other half?
    11. 30% of the time can easily make a 8.5k dps difference.
    12. Yes
    13. Switching to kunchongs, blood, locust running around like a madman
    14. Doesn't matter how slowly, if your pet is about to auto and he moves out of range, it gets reset and doesn't happen. Although he really doesn't move that much I agree.

  8. #28
    If you're saying haste loses value because of pet being out ranged, how can you say crit isnt just as effected? Auto attack timer being reset also means the lost attack didnt crit b/c it didnt happen.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimbot1 View Post
    If you're saying haste loses value because of pet being out ranged, how can you say crit isnt just as effected? Auto attack timer being reset also means the lost attack didnt crit b/c it didnt happen.
    Agreed. i couldn't figure out when pet misses an attack how haste lose values, but crit doesn't. in simple terms, a missed attack means a missed attack, all ur stats gone astray for that chunk of time.

    Being on haste build, pet damage is super awesome! and lets face it, as much master as u can be with ur rotation, u cant match ur pet's :P so even while u r down, pet will keep doing its works mindlessly.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    11. 30% of the time can easily make a 8.5k dps difference.
    Oh noes! 8.5k of the 400+k dps, which will be lost regardless of your haste point, since the pet is going to munch that attack regardless.

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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by anjan011 View Post
    Agreed. i couldn't figure out when pet misses an attack how haste lose values, but crit doesn't. in simple terms, a missed attack means a missed attack, all ur stats gone astray for that chunk of time.

    Being on haste build, pet damage is super awesome! and lets face it, as much master as u can be with ur rotation, u cant match ur pet's :P so even while u r down, pet will keep doing its works mindlessly.
    Actually damage is pretty much 50/50 for me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrysia View Post
    Oh noes! 8.5k of the 400+k dps, which will be lost regardless of your haste point, since the pet is going to munch that attack regardless.
    Just gonna pre-emptively call out Illana if she says something like "8.5k DPS is a big deal in parses" when she makes a point of only talking about progression so this is a very valid point.

  12. #32
    The Lightbringer Tharkkun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    haste loses value at a higher rate than crit on movement heavy fights since pet autos reset if the boss is out of range at the time when it goes off.
    Please stop. If this was truly the case then we should avoid Mastery 100% because it only benefits our pet. Yet at the heroic gear levels they are reforging haste/mastery/crit and doing better DPS. Besides, pets don't have problems following bosses like humans do unless there's a pathing issue in the bosses room.
    Last edited by Tharkkun; 2014-03-06 at 06:37 PM.

  13. #33
    Bloodsail Admiral Kissthebaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spareoh View Post
    Okay, so what IS the current BM stat priority?

    First I ran with crit > haste > mastery. I did quite well with it, kind of felt like a casual raiding god, even (oh nostalgia of Dragon Soul). Then got yelled at that I was a bad hunter and need to reforge to haste = crit > mastery. Then talked to another hunter whose progression far outshines mine and said haste > crit > mastery. Now I'm hearing mastery > haste > crit? Hunters of the world, so confuse, what actually IS the TOP build for pve hunter currently?

    **Obviously agility is king and hit/exp caps are being met over and above these stats.
    The answer is how is your gear? link your armory or something. going crit>haste>mastery is fine in say normal mode or flex gear. But haste and mastery become better which higher item levels. Overall secondary stats are so bad that it really doesnt matter and if you switch specs a lot then just stick with favoring crit. If your gear is decent and are a BM lord then switch it up.

    kissthebaby#1726

  14. #34
    The Patient Alvarie's Avatar
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    Crit > Haste > Mastery in average raiding gear as both Surv and BM.

    When you get a near full Heroic BiS gear you can go Mastery = Haste > Crit for BM ONLY and it outshines Surv and Crit>Haste>Mastery build.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azortharion View Post
    Looking forward to correct it with your advanced, groundbreaking theorycraft.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Alvarie View Post
    When you get a near full Heroic BiS gear you can go Mastery = Haste > Crit for BM ONLY and it outshines Surv and Crit>Haste>Mastery build.
    Please stop with the misinformation. Haste is above Mastery, not equal to it, any sim can reflect this (also by equaling 2 of your top stats you'll get super low Crit which is a DPS loss as you don't want very low on one stat when they're all so close to equal).

    As for Mastery vs Crit.. Don't even get me started.

  16. #36
    Gem spirit, profit.

    Nah but seriously, everything has been covered. At higher ilvls BM only, you want to start rocking Haste > Mastery > Crit.

    With higher ilvls and you frequently switch specs on fights just stay Crit > Haste > Mastery.

    With lower ilvls, Crit > Haste > Mastery should be fine.

    Oh, and ignore anything Illana says.
    Last edited by Alth; 2014-03-06 at 10:48 PM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimbot1 View Post
    If you're saying haste loses value because of pet being out ranged, how can you say crit isnt just as effected? Auto attack timer being reset also means the lost attack didnt crit b/c it didnt happen.
    because crit affects what the hunter does as well. Haste barely does anything for the hunter itself as I pointed out in that other thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    Please stop. If this was truly the case then we should avoid Mastery 100% because it only benefits our pet. Yet at the heroic gear levels they are reforging haste/mastery/crit and doing better DPS. Besides, pets don't have problems following bosses like humans do unless there's a pathing issue in the bosses room.
    at heroic gear levels "they"

    who are they?

    Are they even right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azortharion View Post
    Just gonna pre-emptively call out Illana if she says something like "8.5k DPS is a big deal in parses" when she makes a point of only talking about progression so this is a very valid point.
    The 8k difference was from the other thread when someone posted sims of haste>crit and crit>haste at BiS gear levels.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    because crit affects what the hunter does as well. Haste barely does anything for the hunter itself as I pointed out in that other thread.



    at heroic gear levels "they"

    who are they?

    Are they even right?



    The 8k difference was from the other thread when someone posted sims of haste>crit and crit>haste at BiS gear levels.
    It's ok. Every hunter, including ones able to play their class to a high standard are wrong. You are right. Feel safe in this knowledge.

  19. #39
    Bloodsail Admiral Kissthebaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    because crit affects what the hunter does as well. Haste barely does anything for the hunter itself as I pointed out in that other thread .
    I used to be a big supporter of "well haste just doesnt benefit the hunter as much as crit", but the reason haste is so good is pet auto attacks and focus regain it has nothing to do with the hunter itself. The whole point which you arent listening too is that you want all stats to be about equal with haste being a little bit more favored. That doesnt mean crit sucks or mastery sucks and only stack haste. You want them to be around the same level with a bit more haste. Crit loses value the more you have just like all our shit secondary stats. Now will you see a big difference favoring crit or haste? yes and no. Rng is still Rng. If you want to play BM the majority of fights, then you would be foolish not to change your stats from favoring crit to what I explained. If you want to play survival then stick with the crit>haste>mastery priority. Look at logs don't just argue because its how you feel. Its a noticeable difference that I have experienced changing my reforging as BM. I am ofc in pretty much bis thought so take my words with a grain of salt.

    kissthebaby#1726

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Alth View Post
    It's ok. Every hunter, including ones able to play their class to a high standard are wrong. You are right. Feel safe in this knowledge.
    so why not give a counter argument instead of just being insufferably snide?

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