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  1. #41
    I decided to do a little bit of math and find out what percentage of the time my pet would have to lose melee attacks to boss movement for me personally(in 578 average ilvl) to see a dps gain going from a hast>mast>crit build to a crit>haste>mast build. I don't have BiS gear so results may vary and all that. Here's what I got:

    Simmed on a 5min patchwerk fight with 10% variance


    So the difference in dps with my gear is 3,024.
    3,024 dps represents roughly 907,200 damage done in a 300 second fight.
    Then looking at the pet melee damage in the haste build:

    (moved the pet melee damage line to the top of the Abilities chart for convenience)
    With the pet swinging for an average of 51,412 it would need to lose ~17.6 hits durring the fight to account for that amount of lost damage. Which works out to losing ~5.6% of its attacks.

    That's actually a lot lower than I was expecting it to be. I'm not really sure how many times the pet loses attacks on a movement fight. Maybe someone who's good with logs can check and see how many swings pets lose for the heavy movement fights.

    Now to be fair any fight where a haste build pet is losing swings a crit build pet has to be losing swings as well right? I figure the best way to compare fairly is to just assume both builds lose the same percentage of attacks to boss movement. So then here's the crit build pet:

    (again moved the pet melee)
    The crit pet had 300 swings so assuming it lost 5.6% of them(16.8 swings) at 49,605 damage per swing its a total damage loss of 83,3364. That translates to 2,777 dps. That means that if I use a crit instead of a haste build I'd lose 247 less dps if the pet lost an average of 5.6% of its swings. That's not really what I was looking for, so its graph time to find out what percentage of the time my pet would have to lose attacks to make a crit build better than a haste build for me.

    Here's the pretty graph:


    And all the numbers for it:


    So with my current gear my pet would have to lose over 50% of its melee swings before the crit>haste>mast build became better than haste>mast>crit. Of course if the pet is losing 50% of its melee swings all sorts of other things are going wrong as well, like not getting off basic attacks and probably missing kill commands as well. At that point all stats would become heavily devalued. So far as I can tell the idea that haste is worse for BM because of missed pet attacks just doesn't work. At least that can't be the only reason for haste to be worse than crit. Before this is mentioned I should point out that a haste>crit>mast build would likely require more lost pet melees before becoming inferior to the crit build as the average pet melee would be lower. That's the logic as I see it, combined with some very, very rough math. There are also a few different ways to work through this, I chose the one that resulted in the most visuals. If someone wants to work through a different way that would be great. If my logic was flawed point it out and I'll see if I can correct it.

    MASSIVE DISCLAIMER: All of this is done with my gear and only accounts for the affects of losing pet melee attacks, in no way am I saying that a haste build will always be better than a crit build. You should always sim your own stat weights.

  2. #42
    Kissthebaby, I am normal mode - no progression as of yet on heroics. Apparently I am still too much of a noob to post links.
    Khirsa on Kil'jaeden
    564 equipped, 14/14N

    I find that I switch a lot between BM and SV - depending on fight/mood/etc. My damage is comparable in both specs, so I'm not really favouring one spec over another for better dps.

    I want to thank everyone for your discussion and opinions. Though it's been a little confusing to sort through (mostly because A) noob and B) math/computers are hard), it seems to me that because I have a lower ilvl/experience and am switching between two specs quite often that I should stick with crit.

  3. #43
    Herald of the Titans Azortharion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spareoh View Post
    Kissthebaby, I am normal mode - no progression as of yet on heroics. Apparently I am still too much of a noob to post links.
    Khirsa on Kil'jaeden
    564 equipped, 14/14N

    I find that I switch a lot between BM and SV - depending on fight/mood/etc. My damage is comparable in both specs, so I'm not really favouring one spec over another for better dps.

    I want to thank everyone for your discussion and opinions. Though it's been a little confusing to sort through (mostly because A) noob and B) math/computers are hard), it seems to me that because I have a lower ilvl/experience and am switching between two specs quite often that I should stick with crit.
    If you're switching stick to Crit, that has been said from the start. Crit is much better for Surv than Haste is for BM.
    Though, in that gear, you should just stick to Surv altogether unless the fight demands burst-AoE (which no fights really do.. Siegecrafter is miles away still).

    Azortharion#2528
    - Skype: azortharion - Stream - Hunter F.A.Q - YT - Hunter IRC - Twitter - AzorUI DL

  4. #44
    Bloodsail Admiral Kissthebaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spareoh View Post
    Kissthebaby, I am normal mode - no progression as of yet on heroics. Apparently I am still too much of a noob to post links.
    Khirsa on Kil'jaeden
    564 equipped, 14/14N

    I find that I switch a lot between BM and SV - depending on fight/mood/etc. My damage is comparable in both specs, so I'm not really favouring one spec over another for better dps.

    I want to thank everyone for your discussion and opinions. Though it's been a little confusing to sort through (mostly because A) noob and B) math/computers are hard), it seems to me that because I have a lower ilvl/experience and am switching between two specs quite often that I should stick with crit.
    Yeah stick with crit you will be fine and what azortharion said stick with surv, especially if its 10 man which im assuming.

    kissthebaby#1726

  5. #45
    Truly an amusing read, still has me wondering if Illana is trolling or actually that misinformed and stubborn. If you want to find stat weights for you current gear set, go with Simcraft. Very easy to use.

    To summarize this entire thread.

    Haste > Mastery > Crit at high gear levels for max damage output in BM only.

    Crit > Haste > Mastery if you switch specs alot or find yourself lacking gear.

    95% of hunters will do perfectly fine with going for full crit. If you are unsure about if your gear is suited for a Haste build, it probably isn't.

  6. #46
    The Patient
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    There are two single target fights in SoO (counting malkorok here also, those blobs are critters that die in two seconds). So I suggest you also try simming cleave fights. Notice how much crit loses its value compared to haste, while mastery still holds its position?

    Try that for survival too and be amazed.

  7. #47
    Herald of the Titans Azortharion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soviett View Post
    There are two single target fights in SoO (counting malkorok here also, those blobs are critters that die in two seconds). So I suggest you also try simming cleave fights. Notice how much crit loses its value compared to haste, while mastery still holds its position?

    Try that for survival too and be amazed.
    This is the only reason why I go Haste > Mastery > Crit - because Mastery is more "generally" useful.

    The last time I checked C>M reforges over C>H for Surv, C>M was a DPS loss even though Mastery did indeed show to have more value.

    Azortharion#2528
    - Skype: azortharion - Stream - Hunter F.A.Q - YT - Hunter IRC - Twitter - AzorUI DL

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldarana View Post
    I decided to do a little bit of math and find out what percentage of the time my pet would have to lose melee attacks to boss movement for me personally(in 578 average ilvl) to see a dps gain going from a hast>mast>crit build to a crit>haste>mast build. I don't have BiS gear so results may vary and all that. Here's what I got:

    Simmed on a 5min patchwerk fight with 10% variance


    So the difference in dps with my gear is 3,024.
    3,024 dps represents roughly 907,200 damage done in a 300 second fight.
    Then looking at the pet melee damage in the haste build:

    (moved the pet melee damage line to the top of the Abilities chart for convenience)
    With the pet swinging for an average of 51,412 it would need to lose ~17.6 hits durring the fight to account for that amount of lost damage. Which works out to losing ~5.6% of its attacks.

    That's actually a lot lower than I was expecting it to be. I'm not really sure how many times the pet loses attacks on a movement fight. Maybe someone who's good with logs can check and see how many swings pets lose for the heavy movement fights.

    Now to be fair any fight where a haste build pet is losing swings a crit build pet has to be losing swings as well right? I figure the best way to compare fairly is to just assume both builds lose the same percentage of attacks to boss movement. So then here's the crit build pet:

    (again moved the pet melee)
    The crit pet had 300 swings so assuming it lost 5.6% of them(16.8 swings) at 49,605 damage per swing its a total damage loss of 83,3364. That translates to 2,777 dps. That means that if I use a crit instead of a haste build I'd lose 247 less dps if the pet lost an average of 5.6% of its swings. That's not really what I was looking for, so its graph time to find out what percentage of the time my pet would have to lose attacks to make a crit build better than a haste build for me.

    Here's the pretty graph:


    And all the numbers for it:


    So with my current gear my pet would have to lose over 50% of its melee swings before the crit>haste>mast build became better than haste>mast>crit. Of course if the pet is losing 50% of its melee swings all sorts of other things are going wrong as well, like not getting off basic attacks and probably missing kill commands as well. At that point all stats would become heavily devalued. So far as I can tell the idea that haste is worse for BM because of missed pet attacks just doesn't work. At least that can't be the only reason for haste to be worse than crit. Before this is mentioned I should point out that a haste>crit>mast build would likely require more lost pet melees before becoming inferior to the crit build as the average pet melee would be lower. That's the logic as I see it, combined with some very, very rough math. There are also a few different ways to work through this, I chose the one that resulted in the most visuals. If someone wants to work through a different way that would be great. If my logic was flawed point it out and I'll see if I can correct it.

    MASSIVE DISCLAIMER: All of this is done with my gear and only accounts for the affects of losing pet melee attacks, in no way am I saying that a haste build will always be better than a crit build. You should always sim your own stat weights.
    This is a nice analysis and obviously a lot of work has been put on it.

    I think you've failed to take into account that the gearing would be different for both builds (for example using more pieces with haste/mastery on them instead of crit/haste) and simmed both on just your own gear which is likely to be optimised for haste/mastery

    As far as I can tell the logic is sound behind what you've written though and I commend you on actually taking the time to do some decent analysis (something that cannot be said for many other posters on this forum).

    As I could not find a decent way to import gear sets into simcraft I used femaledwarf instead.



    The DPS difference ended up at about 1k in favour of haste/mastery.

    I think that in the end: all this shows is that we need to balance our stats instead of stack one particular thing since the weights of crit went up massively in the haste/mastery setup and vice versa in the crit/haste setup. I would still favour crit+haste over mastery because of issues with pets but balancing your crit and haste seems to be the way to go.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zirke View Post
    Truly an amusing read, still has me wondering if Illana is trolling or actually that misinformed and stubborn. If you want to find stat weights for you current gear set, go with Simcraft. Very easy to use.

    To summarize this entire thread.

    Haste > Mastery > Crit at high gear levels for max damage output in BM only.

    Crit > Haste > Mastery if you switch specs alot or find yourself lacking gear.

    95% of hunters will do perfectly fine with going for full crit. If you are unsure about if your gear is suited for a Haste build, it probably isn't.
    SimC is a decent tool but you shouldn't just blindly follow it.

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