Re: WW Monks doing it wrong

[Gethe88]

This is the post that started it all.

Here is the recent Twitter convo on this subject.

[blaqkmagick]

This is the post that started it all.

Here is the recent Twitter convo on this subject.

Thanks.
/10chars

[Tehterokkar]

I wish they would just tell us what the fuck they are smoking regarding WW monks. As mentioned before in thread, we have had personal tests with different reforging/talent setups and different rotations, none of them beat the 12-13k haste > Crit >>>>>>>>>>> Mastery build which pretty much never uses FoF.

[Totaltotemic]

No a ~12k haste build will still use FoF about once a minute, maybe more depending on how CB decides to proc. I just don't see how it could possibly have as much as an impact as they're claiming it does unless they're talking about using a heroic AoC to bring it down to like 18 seconds and having enough mastery to TEB every single time they use FoF, but in that case you're resigning yourself to the movement and cleaving conditions of FoF every 18 seconds. In that case, there are very few real fights where you can actually use FoF that often (energy considerations aside, talking purely fight mechanics that allow you to stand still and channel a spell for ~3.5 seconds that loses half of its damage if another enemy happens to be near) and it usually ends up being only every 20-30 seconds on average that it's used at that point which defeats the purpose of using an entire build dedicated to that.

When it comes down to it they seem convinced that every fight is Patchwerk and that things like movement, adds, target switching, and other mechanics during which spells cool down don't actually exist and that everyone should hamstring their DPS for real fights just based on a couple of target dummy bosses.

[Saltycracker]

A lot of times, the decision to use FOF is out of the hands of the monk and more in the hands of the tanks moving the boss and how the encounter mechanics are going to fall out. Using FOF on cooldown is incorrect, because that is not skill, it's more luck than anything. Blizzard is just trolling the monk community and giving everyone misleading information.

To claim that higher skill monks use EB/FOF more is a fallacy, and based on the devs not understanding the spec.

[Hinalover]

A lot of times, the decision to use FOF is out of the hands of the monk and more in the hands of the tanks moving the boss and how the encounter mechanics are going to fall out. Using FOF on cooldown is incorrect, because that is not skill, it's more luck than anything. Blizzard is just trolling the monk community and giving everyone misleading information.

To claim that higher skill monks use EB/FOF more is a fallacy, and based on the devs not understanding the spec.

Not so much trolling but I seriously think that they assumed that FoF would be used more often and provide a bigger dps boost than what the community has come up with. I just don't think they anticipated Haste being so valuable at consistant dps when you cannot use FoF due to movement or damage split. Either they are in neglect about the situation or they have something wrong in their own spreadsheets. FoF is still a powerful ability and it does help jump my dps when the procs align and I use it. But due to the fact that you have to plan 4-8 seconds in advance before using it, due to movement either by you or by the tank, lowers the effectiveness of the ability.

[Gulvan]

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...64801772482560

To me this tweet sums it up their thoughts on WW monks currently. The usage of words such as 'enough' and 'optimally' are where the ability for a player to maximize these two items, haste and FoF/EB usage is what will determine if a monk is doing good dps vs bad dps.

I am not the best at the formulas and I am at work, but could someone come up with how much mastery one would have to effectively have a 10 stack of brew every 13 seconds (HWF x2 upgraded FoF is about 13seconds).

[Hinalover]

It's 15 seconds but didn't we say it was something around 100% Mastery? I cannot remember from the PTR testing off the top of my head. In which case you would need 13,600 Mastery Rating.

[dennix]

A lot of times, the decision to use FOF is out of the hands of the monk and more in the hands of the tanks moving the boss and how the encounter mechanics are going to fall out. Using FOF on cooldown is incorrect, because that is not skill, it's more luck than anything. Blizzard is just trolling the monk community and giving everyone misleading information.

To claim that higher skill monks use EB/FOF more is a fallacy, and based on the devs not understanding the spec.

obviously top monks use it more, but not nearly on CD. Personally i use FoF a lot coz im still stuck with AoC. but lets be fair. On fights like garrosh HC i barely use the ability at all. Yes the 2e phase is good due to little movement (depending on tactic). But even then you need to watch out to not use it around MC's since you might stun your entire raid. It's so situational to use.

I do agree it is a strong ability. Using it on CD is just not realistic. I use a 13k haste build which makes it harder for myself to fit it in. but c'mon.. it sin't that significant for our rotation anyway.


Maybe they are still playing with our old mastery and use RoRo. Honestly i think they say: Less haste would allow you to use FoF/EB on CD. which is correct. However it makes your energy regen so low, that whenever you do not have these abilities you will lose more than the aforementioned gain.

[ravod]

"Better Usage" means during TEB + Trinkets + Potion etc like we should be doing now, not at random times. EB used during energy valleys. This is what all monks currently do so the Better Usage comment means that he is implying that less haste is the way to go. Yet all of the top monks (and numbers) are at least 29-30% haste (12.7k+ haste) and around 5k mastery. Evidence doesn't support his claim.

Saying all of the 'top monks' do it so it must be correct... not true. A ton of people even at the top just lookup what someone else is doing, or what the guides say to do. Not many will actually take the time or even know how to do the immense amount of math required to actually find out what is correct and what is not. And even if they do take the time to theorycraft, there are many times errors in Simcraft and differences compared to actual combat which are hard to pinpoint.
People need to stop putting these 'top' players on a pedestal and stop thinking they're infallible.

One example is Thek, for Paladins this guy is a god....if Thek says to do it, every paladin will do it without question (no offense to any paladins).
Another example is shadowpriests were overvaluing crit(or mastery, can't remember) for the longest because of a bug in Simcraft.
I've seen plenty of times where the wow community all agrees that a certain spec is shit until one person comes along and figures out some trick to push that spec beyond the rest, and then everyone then starts playing that spec. (like holy priests in pvp a few months ago)
Not many think for themselves.

[Pennoyer]

It's been well known for awhile that they believe optimal FoF usage would be higher dps. However, many have found that properly using the skill is simply too difficult on soo fights compared to its alternative.

So Lore must be talking about something new or he's an idiot for telling us what we already know and further confusing the issue.

[PetersenIII]

I seriously think that they assumed that FoF would be used more often and provide a bigger dps boost than what the community has come up with.

Then they're who haven't a clue about their own damned game. Melee can't afford to sit still like ranged can and channel an ability. They killed slam's cast time (and even made it 'cast-while-moving' before that!), but then saddle monks with a "stand still and cast" ability. In the melee spec. It's absurd.

Infracted. Also removed harsh language.

[Totaltotemic]

Honestly i think they say: Less haste would allow you to use FoF/EB on CD. which is correct. However it makes your energy regen so low, that whenever you do not have these abilities you will lose more than the aforementioned gain.

Right and we could see why they would think that. After all, having the exact amount of haste that lets you FoF and EB on CD while being able to constantly generate and spend chi otherwise is the maximum DPS. However, that's only a pie in the sky vision of Windwalker. In reality all you have to do is play the spec in Siege of Orgrimmar to tell that using FoF on CD doesn't very often play nice with stuff you have to do to kill a boss that doesn't just include maximizing damage. It seems like in their twisted vision of class design Windwalkers would gear around that optimal case and then suddenly be terrible DPS on fights like Paragons, Protectors, Garrosh, Spoils, Galakras, and Sha of Pride (for the worst cases) unless you go reforge back up to 12k+ haste just for that fight. No one is actually going to drop their DPS like a rock to try to make the enrage timer of something as silly as Iron Juggernaut.

[Pennoyer]

Edit: meant to quote above post but it failed on my tablet

Unfortunately, Blizzard has been pretty shallow on this point. We've gotten past the point of recognizing that (1) FoF use might be better, to which players have responded with (2) saying that they don't think it's practical in SOO with how most fights are done as a raid group. Blizzard has failed to get to the next stage of the discussion where they (3) explain why they think it's feasible to use FoF effectively, and instead just falls back on the "there's a better way to do it" (I.e. They fall back on (1)).

It's really unfortunate that a CM who constantly preaches about making discussions constructive, where people can build on a discussion, utterly fails to do so here (and, in fact, does the opposite by intentionally confusing and misleading people). It just shows how easy it is to fall back on such an excuse when you have some minor position of authority without having any serious intent on giving the term any substantive meaning.

Of course, they could be talking about some other rotation change entirely, which is unlikely, or considering WW dps under the lens of solo/TI or dungeon content, which would be silly but I wouldn't be surprised.

[dennix]

Right and we could see why they would think that. After all, having the exact amount of haste that lets you FoF and EB on CD while being able to constantly generate and spend chi otherwise is the maximum DPS. However, that's only a pie in the sky vision of Windwalker. In reality all you have to do is play the spec in Siege of Orgrimmar to tell that using FoF on CD doesn't very often play nice with stuff you have to do to kill a boss that doesn't just include maximizing damage. It seems like in their twisted vision of class design Windwalkers would gear around that optimal case and then suddenly be terrible DPS on fights like Paragons, Protectors, Garrosh, Spoils, Galakras, and Sha of Pride (for the worst cases) unless you go reforge back up to 12k+ haste just for that fight. No one is actually going to drop their DPS like a rock to try to make the enrage timer of something as silly as Iron Juggernaut.

Well on fights (where you dont waste FoF) you can quite easily use it on CD. The thing is, with AoC, you are locked in your spot for about 20% of the time, which just isnt gonna cut it for doing tactics. So use, if you wanna do DPS, you can. Just tell your raiding team not to count on you for tactics (gl 10man monks). Also on some fights it is indeed impossible to utilize this correctly and reforging so much is just ridiculous

[Vexilius]

Not many think for themselves.

It's sad how true this is.

[Saltycracker]

It's 15 seconds but didn't we say it was something around 100% Mastery? I cannot remember from the PTR testing off the top of my head. In which case you would need 13,600 Mastery Rating.

@Gulvan It depends on how much haste you have. I had 100% mastery and 9k haste when I did my mastery build and I didn't have anywhere close to 100% TEB uptime. My spreadsheet says that you would need close to 150% mastery/9k haste to have true 100% TEBx10 uptime.

[Khorm]

@Gulvan It depends on how much haste you have. I had 100% mastery and 9k haste when I did my mastery build and I didn't have anywhere close to 100% TEB uptime. My spreadsheet says that you would need close to 150% mastery/9k haste to have true 100% TEBx10 uptime.

Were you using Ascension or CB?

[Saltycracker]

Were you using Ascension or CB?

Chi Brew.

TEB uptime calculations are actually pretty simple to calculate:

(((((Energy Generation) * Haste / 40 * 2.6 + 4/1.5)/4) + 4/1.5) * Mastery) / 40 = TEB Uptime

or something along those lines.

[Deleted]

You also have to keep in mind that when a CM says "WW Monks are doing it wrong", he is most likely not talking about the top monks. These said top monks DO often outperform most of the raid they are playing in. Not to the point where the class actually needs a nerf, but still.
And when it comes to the dps possibilities of a class, the fact that an ability (or the whole rotation) is hard to use properly does not really matter.