Thread: Melee in MoP

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ...
3
4
5
6
LastLast
  1. #81
    Warchief Anzen's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Ravencrest
    Posts
    2,140
    Quote Originally Posted by z4x View Post
    Ranged is superior in every single aspect of WOW, be it PVE (raiding, dungeons and EVEN SOLOING!) and PVP (RBG!!!! arena).

    There isnt any situation where you would want to replace ranged class with melee, EVER.
    I think basically any ranged would be swapped off an arena team in favour of a Warrior.
    I think basically any ranged would be swapped off an RBG team in favour of a Death Knight.

    Also melee are better at soloing (don't know why you brought that up) than ranged are, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

  2. #82
    It simply used to be that before Cataclysm, all the way back to Classic, melee did more damage than ranged in a majority of situations as compensation for BEING melee. Then some guys in the class and encounter design teams, I have no clue who (and it's not just Ghostcrawler, Blizzard decides things by forum vote), wondered why melee did more damage than ranged and thought it was a good idea to make all DPS equal on TOP of giving casting-while-moving/instant spells to ranged.

    The problem here isn't really the moving/instant spells because those are mostly weak relatively. The problem is that ranged does as much DPS as melee, which 100% negates any point to melee. Just the fact there's a hitbox is a handicap, no matter how small, that ranged never ever have to deal with unless the target moves behind them for some reason. I want to look forward to the next expansion as a Windwalker or Rogue or even maybe a Warrior, but I'm really discouraged by things only getting WORSE in Mists when Cataclysm showed how bad it is to make melee and ranged DPS equal. Maybe I'm masochistic and don't know it, but I just play melee now because it's fun to try to overcome this awful handicap, but... I think I've had enough.

    Edit: To be clear, I mean that if you design melee to do more DPS than ranged on a training dummy, then in an actual fight their damage should end up balanced and equal due to melee being forced to inevitably lose uptime where ranged doesn't.
    Slightly off-topic: It is funny to see an "amateur" (compared to Blizzard) modern MMO company like Square Enix understanding this and changing their melee classes to do more straight up damage in Final Fantasy XIV.

    Unfortunately, the whole thing is mucked up and made really complicated because the Blizzard devs have literally said they don't design classes to be totally equal in every situation (such as single target DPS) for the sake of keeping things interesting. I'm not one of those people that thinks the differences in the actual numbers are huge, but it does make it hard to know what's intended and what's just poor design when there's already a gap, or a perceived gap.
    Last edited by Senka; 2014-03-07 at 09:22 AM.

  3. #83
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    In a field, somewhere
    Posts
    7,361
    Quote Originally Posted by esoterickk View Post
    Because they're valuable and not as hindered as everyone is making out, as per my point. They fill roles/niches other classes can't, which is the same reason any variety of anything is brought along. Otherwise if everyone had access to all of the same abilities, yet there was one outlier stronger - it would only make sense to stack a raid 25x of that class (drops permitting).

    People are arguing that this is currently the state of raids at the moment in regards to melee. Saying that melee are such a hinderance that the majority of guilds aren't bringing melee to bring ranged because they're so much stronger; but this is incorrect. As said, top guilds are infact bringing melee and I pointed out the fights that melee could be considered sub-optimal.

    I'm not sure where you're going with this? You're agreeing that people bring melee and that's what I was saying.

    Melee have really not had that much of a difficult experience compared to their ranged counterpart this tier; because again as I said there were very few instances melee were considered suboptimal.
    I'm struggling to think of a fight where you would want a melee over a ranged outside of rogue cheese and an interrupt rotation - I find that disheartening as a melee dps and, to be frank, it just seems more fun to be playing at range these days.

    Melee essentially have to play the support role now of bringing viable raid cooldowns, I don't enjoy this solution.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  4. #84
    Couldn't bring myself to play a ranged class. It's just too convenient. Due to the ever shrinking pool of decent players even the best guilds don't have the luxury of bringing only the specs they would really want on a particular encounter anyways.
    Quote Originally Posted by Senka View Post
    Slightly off-topic: It is funny to see an "amateur" (compared to Blizzard) modern MMO company like Square Enix understanding this and changing their melee classes to do more straight up damage in Final Fantasy XIV.
    Blizzard has their own solution. Just make mechanics not target melees derpderp.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by laumex View Post
    Played every melee except for enha since i started wow
    You're missing out, we've been good all expac (speaking in general terms ofc, not just in pure dps)

    Quote Originally Posted by Horymir View Post
    Dark Shamans fight haha yea, I felt EXACTLY the same as the poster several posts above. Either die from all the fucking shit on the ground around bosses, and be made fun of on guild vent, or do NO dps for huge periods of the fight.

    And Challenge Modes, oh yeah Challenge Modes. If anyone really thinks melee is fine in MoP, be they a clueless Blizz developer, or hardcore fanboi, go do 9/9 gold first as melee, then as ranged. Yup melee are fine and wanted in CM runs
    Or alternatively, just use the HC strat and split the two bosses...as long as you have enough ranged to handle the adds from Wavebinder it's fine.

    And melee are quite fine in CM's, all you need are decent players (that know utility as well as dps) and a few essential buffs (like hero) covered. I did all of my golds with a full melee group, even had a server best time on Scholo for a while.

    The only reason they're not wanted in CM's is because they require more skill to use effectively, and everyone trying to form a group has no patience or understanding. (it's not like early TBC where they were banned from 5-mans due to mob 360° cleaves and lack of CC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anzen View Post
    Careful, you'll have to actually learn the mechanics of each boss rather than the standard "stand still and tunnel for 6 minutes" that melee currently do.
    The last fight like that was Brutallus...we always have to move at some point. Plus we have utility to think about.

    Quote Originally Posted by NuLogic View Post
    Yeah they better do something about it. Things like suds, bombs in gotss, add cleave and that whirly thing adds did in msp where either ignored or simplified as range. The only time a melee had an advantage was dk in SM.
    So you didn't manage to burst down Lilian Voss before the soul phase with 3 melee then? (thus saving an entire minute)

    Not to mention all the utility that we can bring - stuns, grips, shroud, smoke bombs, primal earth ele, offheals etc. (but I guess none of that really matters nowadays, as learning how to get the most out of any class in 5-mans is pretty much a dead skill)

    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    I can solo Cinderfall on my Warlock, then I get on my Rogue and have to wait for others, so I can tag it while they kill it.
    I can solo it quite easily on this toon, in fact I even don't have to move out from the aoe...I just pop a defensive each time it happens. (until I have none left ofc)
    Last edited by Staticus; 2014-03-07 at 10:17 AM.

  6. #86
    Immortal Raiju's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    England
    Posts
    7,248
    Quote Originally Posted by esoterickk View Post
    Because they're valuable and not as hindered as everyone is making out, as per my point. They fill roles/niches other classes can't, which is the same reason any variety of anything is brought along. Otherwise if everyone had access to all of the same abilities, yet there was one outlier stronger - it would only make sense to stack a raid 25x of that class (drops permitting).

    People are arguing that this is currently the state of raids at the moment in regards to melee. Saying that melee are such a hinderance that the majority of guilds aren't bringing melee to bring ranged because they're so much stronger; but this is incorrect. As said, top guilds are infact bringing melee and I pointed out the fights that melee could be considered sub-optimal.

    I'm not sure where you're going with this? You're agreeing that people bring melee and that's what I was saying.

    Melee have really not had that much of a difficult experience compared to their ranged counterpart this tier; because again as I said there were very few instances melee were considered suboptimal.
    No, people do it because 1. Occasionally a better player will beat the 14th best warlock and more importantly 2. None of those warlocks are going to be very well geared if they're all competing for the same loot, dragging your dps down.

    Look at one of the most extreme examples of class stacking present in recent fights - spine of deathwing. People didn't WANT to stack because it's difficult to get that many of 1/2 classes with the appropriate gear, most guilds just couldn't do it and guilds like blood legion as I recall had to borrow people from other guilds to get the kill at all. People don't like it, but it is better.

    About melee soloing, it's not really true melee are better. Tanks are usually the best but even then warlocks/hunters can compete with them at times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  7. #87
    Bloodsail Admiral Ninaran's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,035
    Thought about rerolling on a mage, but then I remembered how horrible the questing and gearing up in MoP was so I sticked with the Rogue.

    For now.

    I'll have to decide come WoD, which class I level up first.

    //Edit:
    What's with all the people complaining about Challenge Mode as melee? I didn't really have any problems there.
    Last edited by Ninaran; 2014-03-07 at 11:02 AM.
    Ex-Rogue; Ex-Paladin
    Mastery will fix it.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninaran View Post
    What's with all the people complaining about Challenge Mode as melee? I didn't really have any problems there.
    You would have even less problems as ranged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anzen View Post
    I think basically any ranged would be swapped off an arena team in favour of a Warrior.
    Warrior is so 2013.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anzen View Post
    I think basically any ranged would be swapped off an RBG team in favour of a Death Knight.
    DK is grip-bot, theres no need for more than one. They could not do anything but grip and still be taken - does it mean melee is strong?
    Its just one melee thats needed in rbg AT ALL. Now boomkins, locks, mages, eles (basically whole World of Castercraft) in other hand...

    Quote Originally Posted by Anzen View Post
    Also melee are better at soloing (don't know why you brought that up) than ranged are, so I have no idea what you're talking about.
    Hunter, Lock - do I need to say more?

    Bah, show me ONE ranged that is worse soloer than say Rogue? ONE

  9. #89
    Warchief Anzen's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Ravencrest
    Posts
    2,140
    Quote Originally Posted by z4x View Post
    DK is grip-bot, theres no need for more than one. They could not do anything but grip and still be taken - does it mean melee is strong?
    So having a role in a battleground is no longer good enough? You act as if other classes are not brought for the quirky perks they bring. Off the top of my head rogues have a solid spot in any RBG team, DK's are fundemental, Guardian/Ferals or Monks will always have a spot in case they need to MT for FC bg's.

    Quote Originally Posted by z4x View Post
    Warrior is so 2013.
    If you're going to use silly, un-constructive responses, I'm not going to give you constructive replies.

    Quote Originally Posted by z4x View Post
    Hunter, Lock - do I need to say more?

    Bah, show me ONE ranged that is worse soloer than say Rogue? ONE
    I see what you did there, "say Rogue", pretty coincidental you picked the worst soloing class out of all of them. ALL the other melee are great solo'ers and can easily offspec tank and be the best soloers in the game. It's not as if I'm lacking proof that DK's, Monk's, Prot's etc are great soloers, there's thousands of examples (off the top of my head, a DK has soloed Sha of Fear and Dark Animus, a Monk soloed Stone Guards and a Prot Pally soloed Elegon at what level 80-85? This isn't even really a debate, if you are seriously trying to argue that those classes are worse at soloing than casters, you have no idea what you're talking about.

    Try not to be so subjective in your replies, I actually personally feel melee are less valuable in a lot of settings over ranged, but the way you put your points across make them too easy to counter.
    Last edited by Anzen; 2014-03-07 at 01:36 PM.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Senka View Post
    Slightly off-topic: It is funny to see an "amateur" (compared to Blizzard) modern MMO company like Square Enix understanding this and changing their melee classes to do more straight up damage in Final Fantasy XIV.
    Yep, Square Enix is an "amateur" modern MMO company. Not like they have been in the MMO business LONGER than Blizzard with a game called Final Fantasy XI.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Anzen View Post
    So having a role in a battleground is no longer good enough?
    ONE melee having ONE slot reserved for grip-botting does make melee a hell of usefull indeed. Bah put there even feral or monk, thats 2/10 slots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anzen View Post
    I see what you did there, "say Rogue", pretty coincidental you picked the worst soloing class out of all of them. ALL the other melee are great solo'ers and can easily offspec tank and be the best soloers in the game. It's not as if I'm lacking proof that DK's, Monk's, Prot's etc are great soloers, there's thousands of examples (off the top of my head, a DK has soloed Sha of Fear and Dark Animus, a Monk soloed Stone Guards and a Prot Pally soloed Elegon at what level 80-85? This isn't even really a debate, if you are seriously trying to argue that those classes are worse at soloing than casters, you have no idea what you're talking about.
    Please stop giving me tanks examples, the topic is about dps. Its obvious that tank is core of pve gameplay, in the same way as healers. I havent brought healers, you dont bring tanks.
    If we are talking about dps (and we do), theres no competition, really. And by soloing I obviously didnt mean questing.

    You seem to quickly skip group pve content. Have doubts in usefulness of melee there or too shy to admit?

    Melees are simply trash of this game, an useless fillers, they are getting worse every expansion and nothing seems to be going to change it anytime soon.

    [edit]

    Slightly off-topic: It is funny to see an "amateur" (compared to Blizzard) modern MMO company like Square Enix understanding this and changing their melee classes to do more straight up damage in Final Fantasy XIV.
    And this^

  12. #92
    Pandaren Monk Of-the-horde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Frankfurt am Main
    Posts
    1,949
    Deathknight for tank as usual and hunter for dps most likely.

  13. #93
    Mechagnome Nyshade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Deimos
    Posts
    613
    I've been raiding as a ranged in MoP so I don't have much to complain about in boss encounters, I do however chuckle every time we get to Dark Shamans. You can hear groans, curses and all sorts of whining from our melees.

    Big thanks to Shyama for the sig <3

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Staticus View Post
    Or alternatively, just use the HC strat and split the two bosses...as long as you have enough ranged to handle the adds from Wavebinder it's fine.
    You can get by with having melee, but this is the crux of the issue. Melee simply cannot fulfil some duties in a raid, while ranged can do all of them. Combine that with better target switching, less downtime and competitive dps and I can easily see why many consider melee shit.

  15. #95
    I'll stick with melee but fights like cinderfall are really disheartening as a melee on TI. I mean maybe if there was like a turret or an equippable water gun so I could be relevant on that fight but he's just a walking repair bill waiting to happen.

    With less instant casts in WoD for ranged hopefully things will balance out but we'll have to wait and see.
    Jake: My mom always gets me the weirdest gifts for my birthday, I wonder what she got me this year?
    Ben: Dude you're getting Adele

  16. #96
    Field Marshal
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    86
    Melee is more fun and challenging compare to ranged where as you just sit and the back and cast fireballs or what. Put it this way Melee are the Marines, Ranged are the pansy Air Force and Navy.

    Yours truly,
    Melee (Warrior) since 2004
    Last edited by Igby; 2014-03-07 at 03:23 PM.
    We didn't wipe 100 times. We just found 100 ways how not to down a boss.

  17. #97
    Legendary! muto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Inside a Bubble
    Posts
    6,347
    Quote Originally Posted by z4x View Post
    You would have even less problems as ranged.


    Warrior is so 2013.


    DK is grip-bot, theres no need for more than one. They could not do anything but grip and still be taken - does it mean melee is strong?
    Its just one melee thats needed in rbg AT ALL. Now boomkins, locks, mages, eles (basically whole World of Castercraft) in other hand...


    Hunter, Lock - do I need to say more?

    Bah, show me ONE ranged that is worse soloer than say Rogue? ONE
    Pretty sure he was referring to the tank classes.

  18. #98
    Herald of the Titans Geminiwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Demon Realm
    Posts
    2,772
    I find fun in both so I'm back and forth a lot. Although I will say that recently I have been more interested in playing my mage only because sometimes fighting in melee combat tends to get annoying after a while mainly because you have to be up close to them and if they move out of melee range you have to make sure you keep up with them. When your ranged you hardly ever have to worry about being in range or having the enemy move around you just plant yourself somewhere and shoot your magic occasionally having to run around to dodge stuff. Melee is fun too though it just depends on my mood.
    “Ever wonder why ice cubes taste so boring? It’s cuz you make ‘em outta stupid water, you bimbo! Put some fruit juice in there and freeze it into ice cubes, and put THAT in your milk.”
    "One small mankind and I'm gonna leap the heck outta this moon rocket." - Kneel Aurmstrang
    For your health.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by thatmikeguy View Post
    Nope. These are the same people that made things the way they are now. Take away melee raid utility, why would anyone ever want melee at all? Can't stand with the healers or anywhere out of the boss hit box. Why have them?
    Meanwhile the top guilds still bring warriors.

  20. #100
    I changed from a Warrior since TBC, to a Hunter in 5.4.

    I love it.

    It's like a whole new game going from so many years of melee, not only to a new class, but a different role.
    Last edited by Toiran; 2014-03-08 at 06:56 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •