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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by oldschoolrogueplayer View Post
    well pardon me all over the place but as it stands shadow clone is overpowered. Cloned double shadow dance anyone? and venom zest isnt that interesting at all. Then theres a crap AOE finisher move. None of those talents interest me from a pvp standpoint.
    Shadow reflection takes 8secs to do anything, it doesn't auto attack or any poison dmg its cc will dr honestly I think it will get changed simply because it sounds terrible for assassin/combat unless they work massively different. That crap aoe finisher sounds like it could be good for pvp. First for it to be a option over the other 2 talents its going to need to do some big dmg for its cd and energy cost and it does shadow dmg so it will do the same dmg across classes. To me it sounds like a 100% fw evis for pvp or maybe a even stronger than a 100% fw evis. CT is just a aoe dot finisher death from above from what was previewed looks like a single target move with some cleave with all the dmg upfront.

    But with it all we'll have to wait for beta and see with the health and healing and dmg changes its really to hard to tell what will be op or trash with this on top of if talents even make it to beta.
    Last edited by wow; 2014-03-18 at 07:25 AM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuyuli View Post
    I want Combo Points on Rogue
    removal of Anticipation and instead bake it in, or fix combo point scaling so that i can just do a 3-4point finisher anyway.
    removal of SnD and make it baseline instead, i have no idea why this is even a thing, this skill is far to important to maintain but it's not very newbie friendly or a very engaging skill either
    removal of Haste scaling for energy, i really really hate how massive the change from "bad gear" to "good gear", to little haste and a rogue plays VERY BORING, too much haste and it's a spamfast thanks to the button smashing to even keep up with all the regeneration.

    Anticipation, Redirect and Energy on Gear are Bandage stuff, should all go away.

    I hate my Rogue so much just because of how bad Haste makes it play and how combo points work, it's simply no fun which made me re-roll another class as main after so many years of rolling rogues.

    Eitherway as long as Combo Points are not on myself (seriously, this is a massive annoyance, it sucked years ago and it still sucks) and Haste scales so awkwardly i will certainly not bother making my Rogue a main again, these two things simply interact way to much in negative ways, there isn't even a damn pro use for combo points on target.

    I totally agree with everything you said its been a long time coming. I think it would be weird to be forced to use baseline anticipation however if I got use to it I hear its useful as mutilate because as Mut you frequently get stuck at 4 combo points and they removed ruthlessness from assassination which helped prevent the next combo building set from leaving you hanging on 4 pts.

    Its this RNG nature of seal fate and Blindside procs and venomous wounds that makes the spec suck total nuts in a pvp environment. Just make mutilate grant 3 combo points and get rid of seal fate and make VW a 100% chance to trigger or at least allow us to stack garrote and rupture for an increased chance instead of having rupture cancel garrote out.

  3. #43
    I would like to have cold blood back

  4. #44
    Keyboard Turner caikems's Avatar
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    ^ Cold Blood was def. a fun talent :-)

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Shanaqt View Post
    I would like to have cold blood back
    I would too however it was removed because most players macroed it into envenom which now without having to wait for 5 stacks anymore people would do it even more.

    Cold blood was for a time when a single crit could make a big difference especially in pvp. One envenom crit in todays game wont do much for you so it would just add to the button bloat.

    It was never interesting but it just had a really cool animation and sound effect.

    I want overkill back more.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I would rather have overkill than vendetta. Yes I would go without a dps cooldown if i could because thats how horrid vendetta is. With overkill I would benefit almost as much as a sub rogue offensively with re sets. Every Re set triggered the buff and made mutilate's openers fairly strong. It was removed because kids whined they didnt want to use vanish as a dps cooldown anymore and it was substituted by shadow blades and Dispatch/blindside.

    I know this whiny kid named edge on the wow forums and he only plays a rogue so he can not wipe with the rest of the raid and use vanish to save himself. thats literally his favorite aspect of playing a rogue and he started in cataclysm.

  6. #46
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    Overkill was a good talent, you really felt the benefit of using vanish in combat, something that I feel is probably quite lacking in rogues today. I'd prefer a modified version of this to replace something like Shadow Focus.
    I am the lucid dream
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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by lolpve View Post
    I like the approach of undoing a lot of the shite that was added to the game in the last 3 expansions. TBC was really the only time I feel this game was any good and I think a lot of people would agree with me.

    Regarding PvP and rogues, they really need to differentiate the specs. Revert mutilate back to TBC playstyle. Make the spec focus on MASSIVE mutilate and envenom damage and pooling energy for these bursts. Get rid of the passive poison-bot playstyle and stupid rupture mechanics.

    Combat is ok I feel, they just need to take energy-regen off haste and increase base energy regen to 15/s.

    Subtlety is a mess. Find weakness makes the spec revolve around restealths and gay openers which isn't fun to play nor is it fun to play against. I'd reduce FW to 25%, increase backstab and hemo damage, and change the mechanics so that you don't have to drop combat to get an opener. Possibly a new finisher that grants a short-duration vanish (like the priest one) so rogues aren't constantly restealthing behind pillars, and getting an opener shouldn't be such a game-breaking damage boost if damage isn't tied to find weakness. I like the change to subterfuge for WoD.
    This is pretty much what I think. Especially about assassination, it was way more fun to play before in terms of "I used a skill and I did damage".
    If the above was done, combat would remain the only spec that needs more passive survival to be able to stand toe to toe with enemies and build bandit's guile. Mutilate and Subtlety would kite around and pool energy/setup burst, while combat needs to be striking enemies to setup burst.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Overkill was a good talent, you really felt the benefit of using vanish in combat, something that I feel is probably quite lacking in rogues today. I'd prefer a modified version of this to replace something like Shadow Focus.
    to be fair, I don't really know if I like this.
    While it would increase the value of Vanish, I am a bit reluctant to be using a defensive spell in an offensive way.

    They had said they wanted to get rid of Overkill, to avoid a defensive spell being used on cooldown (in PvE mostly, Vanish has a lot more value in PvP i.m.o.)
    just to get the offensively used energy regen (the energy regen was a DPS boost)
    But then they added the talent Shadow Focus which again made Vanish a spell to be used in an offensive way (1 free attack), basically countering their own argument for removing Overkill in the first place.
    Although Shadow Focus will only be for 1 attack and has less value than Overkill had, it means that Vanish will still be used on cooldown just to get that extra free attack.

    don't get me wrong: I think Overkill has a lot more value than our current Shadow Focus talent and it defi, but I'd like Overkill as a cooldown for which you don't need to use Vanish.
    People can be whoever they choose to be on the internet - It is strange that so many people choose to be stupid.

    every time I see someone mentioning the word "rouge" I get the urge to say "yes, we are overpowdered"...

  9. #49
    I just want us to be balanced from start to end, as opposed to terrible in the first tier but good in the last.

    The way to do this is to give us more non-haste-based energy regen, and make us scale less with haste.

    That is all I really wish for.

    Other things like differentiating the three specs more, and cps on the rogue would also be great.

  10. #50
    Brewmaster Lazuli's Avatar
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    COMBO POINTS ON ROGUEEEEEEEEEEEEE, ffs why is WoW the only MMO that still uses this ancient fucking mechanic of CP on target
    Quote Originally Posted by KungFuFanta
    Oh my god, a company tries to put some lore flavor into the game mechanics, all is lost, whatever shall we do without a whole 1% of crit or haste.

    Quick, call Ukraine and Russia, let them know to put their conflict on standby because Touch of Elune is BULLSHIT!

  11. #51
    Legendary! Luko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtstormrage View Post
    I just want us to be balanced from start to end, as opposed to terrible in the first tier but good in the last.

    The way to do this is to give us more non-haste-based energy regen, and make us scale less with haste.

    That is all I really wish for.

    Other things like differentiating the three specs more, and cps on the rogue would also be great.
    It's weird seeing someone actually acknowledge this. Most of the time people like to pretend its not an issue by the end of the expansion, completely forgetting those 7 month limbos every expac where we're underwhelming as hell.

    I dunno. More than anything, I want something that I'm well aware isn't going to happen: Fun and engaging PVE gameplay. My rogue, my main of almost a decade, went mostly untouched this expansion.
    Listen kiddos, trust Handsome Jack. You want every part of this insanity.
    So many people are gonna die.

    Formerly Ryngo Blackratchet

  12. #52
    My most wanted changed:

    1. Daggers for every specc. ONLY daggers! Make it work for Combat and make it mandatory for all 3 speccs.
    2. Slice and Dice passive! Or auto-refreshed with finishers for Combat and Subtlety as well.
    3. Anticipation made into baseline!
    4. Bandit's Guile and Revealing Strike removed.
    5. AoE CC of some kind!
    6. Shadowstep made into baseline ability!
    7. Cheat Death made into baseline too.
    8. New AoE Damage attack, or improved Fan of Knives (currently FoK damage sucks).
    9. Sap working on targets in combat, as long you are in Stealth/Vanish yourself.
    10. Remove Feint, give rogue more base toughness of some kind.

  13. #53
    High Overlord Sativ's Avatar
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    Backstab positional requirement removed.

    I'm a easy man to please.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    It's weird seeing someone actually acknowledge this. Most of the time people like to pretend its not an issue by the end of the expansion, completely forgetting those 7 month limbos every expac where we're underwhelming as hell.
    The even weirder thing about this is those same people say things like rogues just scale really so they are only good in the last tier. If rogues scaled good then they wouldn't need to be buffed almost every patch of every expansion lol. If a class has be buffed again and again throughout an expansion its means the opposite of good scaling...

    They pretty much always come out of betas bad and get buffed every patch and main reason for that is they rarely work on rogues in betas. Its pretty messed up they only fix things on rogues beta to beta meaning like something the original bandits guile rogues all said it was terrible in cata beta but it took until mop beta to be "fixed". Around 4.06 they made a post about rogue ramp up being to much and wanting to lower deadly stacks took until 5.0 (mop)....

    If rogues look like crap when beta starts you can bet on them looking like crap when 6.0 hit live. They like to make whatever changes they are going to make to rogues at the start of betas and then barely touch them for the rest of it. And sadly the last 3 betas are evidence of what I've been saying. Maybe gc being gone will change somethings but I won't be shocked if it goes the same as all the other betas.

  15. #55
    Rogue since vanilla. These are my dreams.

    Assassination = Poisons: DoTs

    The whole point here is to bring poison vials to the rogue's arsenal and create a new niche of slow but heavy DoTs and effects. Skillful rogues can line up these powerful DoT effects with other abilities for big damage.

    Also has the most self-healing out of any rogue spec.


    Combat = Weapons: Sustained DPS

    This spec is all about physical damage. The fastest of all the rogue specs and is king of sustained DPS in PvE and PvP.

    This spec also has numerous active defensive abilities as well.


    Subletly = Shadow: Burst

    This spec is all about shadow magic and cooldowns. No more bleeds, those are for Feral Druids.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Sativ View Post
    Backstab positional requirement removed.

    I'm a easy man to please.
    They have announced this change as of Blizzcon. There are no more positional abilities on any class. I think you now get a damage bonus when behind the target, but it's not so much that you can't reasonably fight from the side. Also, you still have to worry about parry from front.

    Honestly, I don't mind if the combo points stay on me or the target, but that could just be Battered Player Syndrome talking.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Edlarel View Post
    They have announced this change as of Blizzcon. There are no more positional abilities on any class. I think you now get a damage bonus when behind the target,
    Nothing was said on bonus dmg from the back, we don't know if there will or won't be but it would be pretty retarded if they put one in. Hey we removed the positional and added another one enjoy...

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    My most wanted changed:

    1. Daggers for every specc. ONLY daggers! Make it work for Combat and make it mandatory for all 3 speccs.
    2. Slice and Dice passive! Or auto-refreshed with finishers for Combat and Subtlety as well.
    3. Anticipation made into baseline!
    4. Bandit's Guile and Revealing Strike removed.
    5. AoE CC of some kind!
    6. Shadowstep made into baseline ability!
    7. Cheat Death made into baseline too.
    8. New AoE Damage attack, or improved Fan of Knives (currently FoK damage sucks).
    9. Sap working on targets in combat, as long you are in Stealth/Vanish yourself.
    10. Remove Feint, give rogue more base toughness of some kind.
    So, you want almost every choice removed, and the skill floor+cap lowered.

    1. Why do you want to restrict our weapon options? Combat is the only spec that really has this luxury of choice right now, and it helps us cope with bad loot RNG. Personally, I'd prefer all specs being able to use all weapons with a DPS difference similar to dagger vs 2.6 for Combat's OH currently.
    2. If Slice and Dice goes completely passive, they should just remove it and make more of our damage active. Too much passive damage is a very common complaint, and making the source of that damage completely passive would just make our rotation even more boring.
    3. Yes. Then they need to add something like MfD that generates CPs to the tier. This would be a good change.
    4. BG and RvS are a big part of optimizing Combat (especially at low gear levels) and add a lot of depth. This would make the spec incredibly boring for those of us that like to optimize beyond the basic rotation. As a side note, this change with passive SnD would make combat literally SS to 5 CP > Evisc with no extra thought. That's literally a 2-button rotation.
    5. We already have AoE CC: Smokebomb. With their WoD CC model, they won't be adding any new CC.
    6. Yes. One of our serious weaknesses in PvP right now is mobility.
    7. No. The choice of a passive "I'm stupid and I should have died" ability vs a better, active ability already has precedence across a number of specs, and it's a good choice to have to make.
    8. We already have good AoE. Multi-Rupt/FoK+Multi-Rupt/Env+FoK (Mut), BF/CT (Combat), FoK/CT (Subt). The only thing that should be changed is CT so it's worth using more often (or at all for Mut).
    9. Most of the skill of using Sap is getting your target out of combat. It's unlikely they'll make CC easier to use with the WoD model too.
    10. Nooooooooo! No. No. No. Feint is a big part of what makes raiding rogues awesome right now: we don't die. Giving us passive DR just makes the difference between a bad rogue and a good rogue smaller. It also removes choices and stops rewarding awareness.

  19. #59
    High Overlord Sativ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edlarel View Post
    They have announced this change as of Blizzcon. There are no more positional abilities on any class. I think you now get a damage bonus when behind the target, but it's not so much that you can't reasonably fight from the side. Also, you still have to worry about parry from front.

    Honestly, I don't mind if the combo points stay on me or the target, but that could just be Battered Player Syndrome talking.
    I like Redirecting Combos for Kidney and MFD Kidney at focus randomly.

    Combo points on the rogue is 'annoying' but not as annoying as backstab + a bit of MS

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    So, you want almost every choice removed, and the skill floor+cap lowered.

    1. Why do you want to restrict our weapon options? Combat is the only spec that really has this luxury of choice right now, and it helps us cope with bad loot RNG. Personally, I'd prefer all specs being able to use all weapons with a DPS difference similar to dagger vs 2.6 for Combat's OH currently.
    2. If Slice and Dice goes completely passive, they should just remove it and make more of our damage active. Too much passive damage is a very common complaint, and making the source of that damage completely passive would just make our rotation even more boring.
    3. Yes. Then they need to add something like MfD that generates CPs to the tier. This would be a good change.
    4. BG and RvS are a big part of optimizing Combat (especially at low gear levels) and add a lot of depth. This would make the spec incredibly boring for those of us that like to optimize beyond the basic rotation. As a side note, this change with passive SnD would make combat literally SS to 5 CP > Evisc with no extra thought. That's literally a 2-button rotation.
    5. We already have AoE CC: Smokebomb. With their WoD CC model, they won't be adding any new CC.
    6. Yes. One of our serious weaknesses in PvP right now is mobility.
    7. No. The choice of a passive "I'm stupid and I should have died" ability vs a better, active ability already has precedence across a number of specs, and it's a good choice to have to make.
    8. We already have good AoE. Multi-Rupt/FoK+Multi-Rupt/Env+FoK (Mut), BF/CT (Combat), FoK/CT (Subt). The only thing that should be changed is CT so it's worth using more often (or at all for Mut).
    9. Most of the skill of using Sap is getting your target out of combat. It's unlikely they'll make CC easier to use with the WoD model too.
    10. Nooooooooo! No. No. No. Feint is a big part of what makes raiding rogues awesome right now: we don't die. Giving us passive DR just makes the difference between a bad rogue and a good rogue smaller. It also removes choices and stops rewarding awareness.

    you defended Elusiveness I was going to agree with you...

    Elusiveness is a huge reason I hate playing my rogue. So your happy having 2 not viable talents on that tier and only feint spam?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sativ View Post
    I like Redirecting Combos for Kidney and MFD Kidney at focus randomly.

    Combo points on the rogue is 'annoying' but not as annoying as backstab + a bit of MS

    redirect was a band aid fix. Rogues have been asking for points on them for years and they gave it to monks. IF there was no redirect and they were on us it would save binds and you can kidney someone else whenever the hell you feel like it without restriction. It would be a huge buff and quality of life improvement.

    It would take a little getting use to but I could get on board quickly

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    My most wanted changed:

    1. Daggers for every specc. ONLY daggers! Make it work for Combat and make it mandatory for all 3 speccs.
    2. Slice and Dice passive! Or auto-refreshed with finishers for Combat and Subtlety as well.
    3. Anticipation made into baseline!
    4. Bandit's Guile and Revealing Strike removed.
    5. AoE CC of some kind!
    6. Shadowstep made into baseline ability!
    7. Cheat Death made into baseline too.
    8. New AoE Damage attack, or improved Fan of Knives (currently FoK damage sucks).
    9. Sap working on targets in combat, as long you are in Stealth/Vanish yourself.
    10. Remove Feint, give rogue more base toughness of some kind.
    I agree with removing feint in favor of desperately needed more passive survivability and they should just make cheat death baseline theres no way to buff it enough to be good unless its OP and heals us and puts us back into stealth.

    I do not agree with anything else.

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