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  1. #61
    High Overlord Sativ's Avatar
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    I agree with removing feint in favor of desperately needed more passive survivability and they should just make cheat death baseline theres no way to buff it enough to be good unless its OP and heals us and puts us back into stealth.

    I do not agree with anything else.
    Having to manage a 4 second duration buff to stay alive is pretty lame, i'll agree.

    One thing i would like to see is each spec have a choice in weapons.

    Subtlety for example, could use Backstab with Daggers Dealing lets say 150% weapon damage. Backstab could 'morph' into Hemorrhage and deal 100% weapon damage + 50% Weapon damage as a bleed, a rolling bleed like I

    That sort of thing (I know the %'s dont add up with Top end on swords vs daggers. Just an example)

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by oldschoolrogueplayer View Post
    you defended Elusiveness I was going to agree with you...

    Elusiveness is a huge reason I hate playing my rogue. So your happy having 2 not viable talents on that tier and only feint spam?
    For PvP, Elusiveness is definitely lame. It's too good and too much of a pain to keep rolling. I agree with you in that respect.

    For PvE, you don't put it up all the time. You make the choice of when to apply it most efficiently. You also use it to stand in stuff that would otherwise kill you for additional uptime.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sativ View Post
    Having to manage a 4 second duration buff to stay alive is pretty lame, i'll agree.

    One thing i would like to see is each spec have a choice in weapons.

    Subtlety for example, could use Backstab with Daggers Dealing lets say 150% weapon damage. Backstab could 'morph' into Hemorrhage and deal 100% weapon damage + 50% Weapon damage as a bleed, a rolling bleed like I

    That sort of thing (I know the %'s dont add up with Top end on swords vs daggers. Just an example)
    No. Just make BS usable with a non-dagger and adjust the weapon damage portion accordingly. If you remove Hemo/BS, it takes away one more thing for the spec to juggle, which is entirely what the spec is about and what makes it fun.

  3. #63
    I think I'll be happy if the expac starts and we have at least a three button rotation. Gods only know what else this nega-expansion will subtract.

  4. #64
    I wouldnt mind it replacing vendetta as assassination's burst cooldown. 1 min cd Increases energy regeneration by 30% for 30 seconds.

    However if i had my way I would just restore old passive overkill for Muti spec and dump shadow focus for a weaker version of cloak and dagger like 25 yards to use openers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I think I'll be happy if the expac starts and we have at least a three button rotation. Gods only know what else this nega-expansion will subtract.
    just dont play mutilate then its the only spec thats really going to have its rotation simplified. SND will be passive at least we are led to believe so far but only for mutilate. Combat and Subs rotation isnt likely to change. Also I find all the rogue rotations for damage already incredibly simple the exception being Sub. Combat has the most braindead rotation of them all. Maintain snd and RS spam sinister strike and otherwise eviscerate.

    Mutilate will be even more incredibly easy to play without having to manage SND. I hate using boring abilities like slice and dice in pvp and it frees up T for me to use for something else.

    Passive SND constant is kind of huge buff it will save me energy and a global and increase sustained damage and the rate of poison procs at all times. It will take much more than that to make mutilate viable in a pvp setting though which is not even on the list of blizzard's intentions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sativ View Post
    Having to manage a 4 second duration buff to stay alive is pretty lame, i'll agree.

    One thing i would like to see is each spec have a choice in weapons.

    Subtlety for example, could use Backstab with Daggers Dealing lets say 150% weapon damage. Backstab could 'morph' into Hemorrhage and deal 100% weapon damage + 50% Weapon damage as a bleed, a rolling bleed like I

    That sort of thing (I know the %'s dont add up with Top end on swords vs daggers. Just an example)
    glad you agree also sativ u are aware its already confirmed sub is losing its positional requirements? wish granted. Oh and btw I have watched some of your videos in the past you do good work and your a great rogue player. Im sure like me you know rogues have had much more convenient times more in our favor in past expansions.

    I feel Rogues have only gotten harder and harder to play because we do less damage than other classes and have not gained more CC while others have and we are still fairly squishy.

    However recently in my time on wrath private servers even in full wrathful Rogues take an extroardinary amount of damage and die amazingly faster than any other class from a few direct hits. All we had for defense was 25 % passive dodge chance, evasion and cloak which was only a 90% chance at the time to resist spells. Evasion of course triggered Overpower which was deadly back then from warriors.

    We had no self healing whatsoever and very low hit points and armor but we did have Stunlocks and we could spam shiv even through deterence.

    Rogues just use to be the kings of CC and now we are not you could easily trade a rogue for a hunter or something. All we offer is damage bonuses to the other dps and they are taking one away in WOD>
    Last edited by oldschoolrogueplayer; 2014-03-20 at 04:36 AM.

  5. #65
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    1. Combo points on the rogue.
    THAT IS IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    That is all I have ever wanted on rogues. Every other MMO does it and I can't work out why wow hasn't yet.
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  6. #66
    I am Murloc! Luko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    THAT IS IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    That is all I have ever wanted on rogues. Every other MMO does it and I can't work out why wow hasn't yet.
    Because they've apparently been collecting Rogue requests over the past ~8 years to implement onto Monks.
    Listen kiddos, trust Handsome Jack. You want every part of this insanity.
    So many people are gonna die.

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  7. #67
    Why the hell did they nerf assassin's resolve at the beginning of this tier? Did blizzard just want to completely kill one of our specs so they put in this idiotic nerf and forced everyone to go combat or sub?

    I would like some accountability in the next expansion, I'm sick of devs getting away with complete bullshit like what happened this tier with needlessly killing one of our play style options and then linking any hope of competitiveness to getting one item (AoC).

    The only good thing about current rogue pve design is that rogues are good at surviving, but then again this might be a balance issue because it is generally not worth wasting a battle res on a dead rogue.
    Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
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  8. #68
    Bloodsail Admiral Lazuli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Because they've apparently been collecting Rogue requests over the past ~8 years to implement onto Monks.
    Hahahahahahahaha

    *silent tears.....*

    Don't forget paladins ^_^
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  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Venant View Post
    Why the hell did they nerf assassin's resolve at the beginning of this tier? Did blizzard just want to completely kill one of our specs so they put in this idiotic nerf and forced everyone to go combat or sub?

    I would like some accountability in the next expansion, I'm sick of devs getting away with complete bullshit like what happened this tier with needlessly killing one of our play style options and then linking any hope of competitiveness to getting one item (AoC).

    The only good thing about current rogue pve design is that rogues are good at surviving, but then again this might be a balance issue because it is generally not worth wasting a battle res on a dead rogue.
    yea they buffed it for a week only to take it away flat out 5% damage nerf that was really unnecessary. I think combat needs an eviscerate buff and mutilate needs dps buffs to envenom and 5% more resolve.

  10. #70

    Thumbs up Some stuff id qreally like to see happen in wod:

    My wish list is:

    1- Remove haste increasing energyy so there is no more "haste will fix it".
    2- Remove the energy cost of finishing moves, they should only cost combo points.

    Finishers and mobility:
    3- Merg rupture and crimson tempest so rupture does free mini ruptures as aoe.
    4- Baseline Shadowstep instead of preparation, but a talent tier dedicated to reducing cooldowns: choose between double charges, prep, or half cooldowns.
    5- Cloak and dagger is passive.

    Assassinations:
    6- Mutilate without daggers/with swords sounds amazing. Very much hope that change goes live.
    7- Replace vendetta without something fun.
    8- Deadly Poison vials as a throwable aoe like death and decay, targetable like distract and applies poison to those hit and dots them rather than being a ground debuff.
    9- Poisons/envenom granting energy, rather than rupture.

    Combat:
    10- Change bands guile. It's dull and doesnt affect game play, feels punishing when it isn't up, it's mostly ignored anyway.
    11- Clean up revealing strike. Make it hit harder or do "more".

    Subulety:
    12- Reduce dependency on shadow dance and find weakness.
    13- Introduce subterfuge as part of the rotation, not necessarily on a proc as that's too much rng, but bake it into an ability.
    14- Introduce a mechanic that reduces the GCD of finishers by 0.2 per combo points (off GCD at 5 combo points)
    15- An ability "Hit and run" that returns you to the previous destination of your Shadowstep.

    Glyphs:
    16- Glyph of Shadowstep: Shadowstep is now targetable, you can click a location to Shadowstep to.
    17- Glyph of Shadowbomb: Smoke bomb Is now targetable and can be thrown to a target location.

    That's all I can think of for now. Any thoughts on these ideas? Feel free to add your own.
    Last edited by Murdeh; 2014-03-20 at 10:54 PM.

  11. #71
    Do we need yet another WoD wishlist?

    I'll assume you meant another thread, and that you're not just spamming. Regardless, do remember there's that nice little "report post" button you can use in the future... -Kael
    Last edited by Kael; 2014-03-21 at 06:38 AM.
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  12. #72
    Stood in the Fire DrArtorius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Do we need yet another WoD wishlist?
    Certainly not... But BTW...
    Quote Originally Posted by Murdeh View Post
    10- Change bands guile. It's dull and doesnt affect game play, feels punishing when it isn't up, it's mostly ignored anyway.
    I agree that it could be changed, but it does affect gameplay and it's not ignored at all...

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Murdeh View Post
    My wish list is:

    1- Remove haste increasing energyy so there is no more "haste will fix it".
    2- Remove the energy cost of finishing moves, they should only cost combo points.

    Finishers and mobility:
    3- Merg rupture and crimson tempest so rupture does free mini ruptures as aoe.
    4- Baseline Shadowstep instead of preparation, but a talent tier dedicated to reducing cooldowns: choose between double charges, prep, or half cooldowns.
    5- Cloak and dagger is passive.

    Assassinations:
    6- Mutilate without daggers/with swords sounds amazing. Very much hope that change goes live.
    7- Replace vendetta without something fun.
    8- Deadly Poison vials as a throwable aoe like death and decay, targetable like distract and applies poison to those hit and dots them rather than being a ground debuff.
    9- Poisons/envenom granting energy, rather than rupture.

    Combat:
    10- Change bands guile. It's dull and doesnt affect game play, feels punishing when it isn't up, it's mostly ignored anyway.
    11- Clean up revealing strike. Make it hit harder or do "more".

    Subulety:
    12- Reduce dependency on shadow dance and find weakness.
    13- Introduce subterfuge as part of the rotation, not necessarily on a proc as that's too much rng, but bake it into an ability.
    14- Introduce a mechanic that reduces the GCD of finishers by 0.2 per combo points (off GCD at 5 combo points)
    15- An ability "Hit and run" that returns you to the previous destination of your Shadowstep.

    Glyphs:
    16- Glyph of Shadowstep: Shadowstep is now targetable, you can click a location to Shadowstep to.
    17- Glyph of Shadowbomb: Smoke bomb Is now targetable and can be thrown to a target location.

    That's all I can think of for now. Any thoughts on these ideas? Feel free to add your own.
    I really like your ideas.

  14. #74
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murdeh View Post
    My wish list is:

    1- Remove haste increasing energyy so there is no more "haste will fix it".
    2- Remove the energy cost of finishing moves, they should only cost combo points.

    Finishers and mobility:
    3- Merg rupture and crimson tempest so rupture does free mini ruptures as aoe.
    4- Baseline Shadowstep instead of preparation, but a talent tier dedicated to reducing cooldowns: choose between double charges, prep, or half cooldowns.
    5- Cloak and dagger is passive.

    Assassinations:
    6- Mutilate without daggers/with swords sounds amazing. Very much hope that change goes live.
    7- Replace vendetta without something fun.
    8- Deadly Poison vials as a throwable aoe like death and decay, targetable like distract and applies poison to those hit and dots them rather than being a ground debuff.
    9- Poisons/envenom granting energy, rather than rupture.

    Combat:
    10- Change bands guile. It's dull and doesnt affect game play, feels punishing when it isn't up, it's mostly ignored anyway.
    11- Clean up revealing strike. Make it hit harder or do "more".

    Subulety:
    12- Reduce dependency on shadow dance and find weakness.
    13- Introduce subterfuge as part of the rotation, not necessarily on a proc as that's too much rng, but bake it into an ability.
    14- Introduce a mechanic that reduces the GCD of finishers by 0.2 per combo points (off GCD at 5 combo points)
    15- An ability "Hit and run" that returns you to the previous destination of your Shadowstep.

    Glyphs:
    16- Glyph of Shadowstep: Shadowstep is now targetable, you can click a location to Shadowstep to.
    17- Glyph of Shadowbomb: Smoke bomb Is now targetable and can be thrown to a target location.

    That's all I can think of for now. Any thoughts on these ideas? Feel free to add your own.
    I'd be pretty happy with these changes, only thing I'd add is that I think we could use an extra rotational or short cd ability for Combat and assassination - not enough going on with those specs to keep things interesting.

    For combat, an ability I saw a few weeks back that I really liked the idea of was an attack that has the same energy cost as Sinister Strike, does more damage but doesn't advance BG.

    With that suddenly BG becomes a lot more interesting and actually has to be managed (sort of) - BG is important now, but it's one of those nuances to the spec, I think it's got potential to be interesting and could certainly be improved.
    Last edited by Ryme; 2014-03-21 at 09:31 AM.
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  15. #75
    My wishes for assassin would be:

    1. Make Rupture and Garrote tick both at 2s decreasing with haste -> making garrote a viable opener and not to be forgotten about (apart from pvp obviously). Make CT tick at a 3-4s rate decreasing with haste and also make it proc Venomous Wounds.

    This way you would get a fast applied AoE. I know we do fine AoE damage in SoO at least in some cases. But in other cases, such as dungeons, such as solo stuff, or in general fast dying adds we lack of real aoe burst.

    2. As SnD refreshes with Envenom I would make it applied by it, too. Usually you can ignore it after the first application anyway. Would also make sense. I mean as an assassin you sneak in and stab someone. You don’t sneak in and tickle someone while you prepare your weapons.

    3. As assassin rogues need to rely on their deadly poison for damage. Wound Poison is simply never ever used. I’d make deadly poison a separate poison – possibly passive – and group up wound poison together with leeching poison (so you can choose between healing yourself and decreasing healing on your enemy) and mind numbing together with crippling and paralytic.

    4. Rogue’s selfheal has to be buffed dramatically. Recup does not do enough selfheal to be seriously considered. 4% of health every 3 secs. With 600k health it’s 24k per tick. Every 3 seconds. Not funny because most other dots tick shorter and higher. In addition it costs combo points.

    Also it’s a hot – a very long hot. Making it useless in most situations. A nice burst heal would make much more sense. In addition. Leeching poison is not that good either.

    I’d make a synergy. Leeching poison poisons an enemy for 15sec healing 4% of health every 3 seconds. Subsequent weapon strikes against the target grant a stacking buff (up to 3-5 times) called Recup. Recup instantly heals the Rogue for [xxx] scaling with the buff.


    Oh and the talents reworked, too.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by D-angeL View Post
    4. Rogue’s selfheal has to be buffed dramatically. Recup does not do enough selfheal to be seriously considered. 4% of health every 3 secs. With 600k health it’s 24k per tick. Every 3 seconds. Not funny because most other dots tick shorter and higher. In addition it costs combo points.
    Seriously considered for what? Maintanking a raid?
    Most DPS abilities do more damage then most of the HoT abilities. It's by design. On top of that, we're no healer, we are not competing in the "heal yourself" spot with anyone, because noone does. Selfhealing by nonhealer classes is a minor concern in every corner of the game. And yes, i've seen arena games being decided by tactical application of health recovery but that's not a question numbers but brains. I've seen raid encounters being defeated by the last man standing, but that's neither a question of numbers but pure luck.
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  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by D-angeL View Post
    My wishes for assassin would be:

    4. Rogue’s selfheal has to be buffed dramatically. Recup does not do enough selfheal to be seriously considered. 4% of health every 3 secs. With 600k health it’s 24k per tick. Every 3 seconds. Not funny because most other dots tick shorter and higher. In addition it costs combo points.

    Also it’s a hot – a very long hot. Making it useless in most situations. A nice burst heal would make much more sense. In addition. Leeching poison is not that good either.

    Oh that was something else I forgot to add to the list, a passive recuperate. Tie it to energy regeneration, regenerate 10 energy and 1% health per second even during combat.

    OR

    Every time you cap energy, instead of gaining 10 energy, you gain 1-2% health per second.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Because they've apparently been collecting Rogue requests over the past ~8 years to implement onto Monks.
    Monks might seriously have a killing spree talent that makes them invincible during it, by the way.


    2- Remove the energy cost of finishing moves, they should only cost combo points.
    So, I have a bit to blab on this one. First, I mostly disagree. Second, only mostly.

    On live, the finishers tend to be straight proportions- a four combo point eviscerate is twice as strong as a two combo point eviscerate. This is ok, but the system should reward you for using 5 combo point finishers. The way it does this is by first giving these finishers an energy cost, and then decreasing it down to zero based on combo points used.

    I think there's so much design space in the rogue resource system- more than enough to be explored with three specs. But instead, they just get closer and closer together, with talents like relentless strike becoming first easy to reach, then baseline for all rogues.


    Imagine a finisher that costs 50 energy and 5 combo points, and no, there's no refund. In this case, the finisher would actually be pretty cool, right? It would represent a meaningful pause in your rotation under most situtaions, and it would be powerful.

    Now pretend you also have a weaker one that costs 0 energy. Maybe that one is more beneficial under certain conditions.


    I think we'd do well to see more of that.



    16- Glyph of Shadowstep: Shadowstep is now targetable, you can click a location to Shadowstep to.
    17- Glyph of Shadowbomb: Smoke bomb Is now targetable and can be thrown to a target location.
    You can't glyph talents, but we almost had that teleport to ground talent. Remember that we seriously have only two options on our stupid mobility tier, so we should get something nice in there. The devs are too busy deleting your cool powers and moves that you just earned to actually fill this out, however. I will say this: that's a solid idea.

    The smokebomb glyph you have there is absolutely aces. It should be implemented posthaste. Give it like a 15 yard range, that would be super.


    Merg rupture and crimson tempest so rupture does free mini ruptures as aoe.
    I dislike this. I think tempest just needs to be buffed a whole damned lot. Also it needs to stack, not clip, like every other dot. If you have an aoe finisher, it shouldn't be worth using "only if you have 8 mobs, and only if they live 8 seconds each" or what the heck ever is wrong with this cool and flavorful move.

  19. #79
    Just a quick note on energy-less finishers:
    Damage finishers scale 1:1 with combo points. In general, if we prefer to cast finishers at 5cp, it's because they are more efficient energy-wise; without the energy cost, the cp size would not matter: the resource to care for would be the gcd rather than the energy/cp system, and we would think of finishers as the 'filler spell' which is... unappealing.

    So, doable?: absolutely; in several different ways: super-linear scaling per cp, size-fixed (ala monk), or cooldown restricted finishers, etc.
    Interesting?: I doubt it, but I'm yet to see any idea that advocates zero cost finishers and actually deals with the design consequences (I would love to see some, though).

    The energy/cp system probably has potential to be more interesting than it already is, but I doubt we can do it with one-liners. I'm fully aware that it's a common theme on these forums to equate monks/paladins/rogues. I think that line of thought ignores the nuances that make the rogue resource system feel exclusive.
    Last edited by nextormento; 2014-03-21 at 07:49 PM.

  20. #80
    High Overlord Raic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    This is ok, but the system should reward you for using 5 combo point finishers. The way it does this is by first giving these finishers an energy cost, and then decreasing it down to zero based on combo points used.

    I think there's so much design space in the rogue resource system- more than enough to be explored with three specs. But instead, they just get closer and closer together, with talents like relentless strike becoming first easy to reach, then baseline for all rogues.


    Imagine a finisher that costs 50 energy and 5 combo points, and no, there's no refund. In this case, the finisher would actually be pretty cool, right? It would represent a meaningful pause in your rotation under most situtaions, and it would be powerful.
    I would really like to see something like this. Hard hitting finishers that cost more, but feel like they matter when they hit rather than just part of a damage priority list. It would probably be the easiest way to transition from mostly passive damage to a healthy dose of active damage.

    Maybe it's just me, maybe I'm playing the wrong class, but finishers just feel too "weak" right now. In the current state of things though, it's justifiable...all three specs in N/HC SoO gear have moderate to high haste/energy regen, and at times can be flooded with CPs (maybe not flooded exactly, but reaching 5 CPs is a relatively short process, especially with t16-2p), on top of it, finishers are nearly free @5cp (recup has a 5 net cost, evis/envenom/DT/CT have a 10 net cost). Unfortunately they can't really buff finishers (in a vacuum) without making rogue damage over-the-top, they'd have to adjust CP generation and energy regen along with it.

    I've picked up Sub lately and I am enjoying some of the mastery-enhanced finishers with procs and FW. Combat, not so much. Looking over one of my recent logs, I was getting an 80k avg hit/180k avg crit on SS with 130k hit/280k crit on Evis. That just feels bland to me, when a 5cp finisher hits around 50-60% harder than a single CP generating ability. Sub seems to be roughly 100%+ for backstab/5cp evis.

    Maybe I've just played my destro lock too much, where I slowly build up embers to unleash a punishing Chaos Bolt with procs up. I'd like to see at least one rogue spec with slow CP generation and high-powered instant finishers.

    I understand that not every spec is meant to have high damage finishers. Assassination revolves around poison application, Envenom's instant damage is only part of its purpose. Combat revolves around cooldowns, finishers are mainly focused on advancing restless blades. Sub revolves around burst, and excessively hard hitting finishers would probably bring out all the QQ in PvP. But surely Blizzard could think of something?

    Is it too much to ask to have a #1 damaging ability that's not auto-attacks, poisons, CP generators, or mastery procs?

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