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  1. #21
    Also 10 man healing and 25 man healing. Two very different things.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Osheri View Post
    I am ranking and always will be ranking and I still stick by my point that it means absolutely nothing. It relies heavily on what composition you are running. We could solo heal garrosh heroic, but we arent, does that mean I am a bad priest because my guild decides to go with an additional healer? If I tell the other healer to lay off the healing will that make me any better? If im using dps cloak because we want to skip the whole 2nd intermission, im losing precious hps ranks, does this make me a bad healer? If im using attonement more than usual to push the boss dps as much as possible because we dont need more healing before phase 3, does this make me a bad healer? If im helping on both siege engineers so we dont have to send our lock (only one that can solo reliably) who can shadowburn 6 adds on garrosh to boost dps, im losing hps, am I a bad healer?

    I agree with you about the shields and all, but there are so many more factors that make a good healer than HPS ranks. It relies on your composition, how good people are at moving out of things... etc etc.. I could go on and on and show you more examples in other fights, but I think you get the picture.
    Which is why it's hard to define who the "best" player is. By no means would doing extra shit that costs you HPS but makes your raid have an easier time make you a worse healer - but you can't measure that. You don't have any way to indicate what it's "worth". The only thing you can define in this game is Win:Loss ratio (both against other players and against bosses), and output. I will keep valueing people on output, as I have seen far too many excuses from people "doing shitty jobs" that really doesn't cost them "a lot". One of the most used excuses I see are "raid leaders" of guilds with 20-50th percentile logs, who "has to focus on calling stuff out and leading the raid" so much that they forget to press their buttons (I'd come with examples and links to epeenbot if that wouldn't earn me a smack on the wrist for shit-talking players that has nothing to do with this, but yea :P).

    All in all, though, all the things you've mentioned are mostly a 10 man "concern", and not related to 25 man which I've been referring to. You wouldn't be sending discs to do engineers (need "real" dps), you wouldn't be making or breaking it depending on a cloak (and on that note, the dps cloak is argueably stronger on half the fights output wise in SoO than the healing cloak due to healing having 1K wasted stats in spirit and a near-useless proc - including garrosh), and if there's nothing more to heal before P3 (EG you've ended a whirl and need to push before next whirl), then there's no random AOE dmg going out anyway, and you'd *want* to atonement as it's smarthealing going 100% for the tank (and would thus be the highest output you can do during that situation). Just saying <.<.

    In any case - I look at the evidence I have. That's ranks, output, logs. One thing is for sure - to be a "great", or "the best" healer, you need to be able to push your class to the very edge. This is what can be measured, and that's my main gauge for a player's worth, untill I have seen him play/played with him myself to make an estimation of other factors.
    To round it off -
    Being a great player and being able to do stuff that is outside your "comfort zone" is a sign of exactly that - a great player. It is not the sign of a "great disc", "great hunter", "great warlock" or "great mage". Utilization of your specific chosen class and spec, and maximizing your potential output with that class is a sign of a "great <insert class here>".
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2014-03-06 at 05:34 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    All in all, though, all the things you've mentioned are mostly a 10 man "concern", and not related to 25 man which I've been referring to.
    Ye I realised this and posted above I can see your point in a 25 man situation but again droping a healer will make that hps go up..

  4. #24
    @Draco, the logs you linked were all stacked in his favour. How many Discs out there actually get to pad on IJ by 4 healing it, or have their guild completely ignore dispels on FP or Sha? Heck, look at the Innervates he was fed on Thok. On a side note, I beat his Thok parse despite being 8 ilvls behind him, go me! If you actually look at his Thok log carefully, you'd realize that he failed to optimize his ToF uptime by proccing it off the Cave Bats.

    That being said, I know of quite a few excellent Disc Priests who will never rank very highly simply because a) their raid doesn't bother with healing parses and b) the raid runs with multiple Discs. Case in point - Undefiled, who was top last tier, hasn't gotten to parse much because I know Vigil doesn't underheal fights or ignore mechanics on bosses for healing parses (unlike certain other guilds). If you want a better gauge at how good a Disc Priest is, you're much better off looking at their progression logs whereby raids are much less inclined to approach fights with healing parses in mind. Even then, Disc Priests who are the sole Disc in the raid will typically parse better than those who have to compete with other Discs in their raid.
    Last edited by Basmothh; 2014-03-06 at 10:13 PM.

  5. #25
    Logs and rankings really only give you any sort of indication (albeit a stilled skewed and mostly pointless one) during the first 1-2 kills during heroic progression and then again, comp, strat, role and fellow healers make all the difference. At this point, especially for disc, it is all about having an assload of crit and just blanketing the raid in DA again, which is boring as fuck. So rather than do that, I'd rather just dps and get the fight over with. If I avoid mechanics, am reliable, complete my role, and the raid lives, I don't give a fuck how much hps I did because at the end of the day, we did our job and the boss is dead.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Basmothh View Post
    @Draco, the logs you linked were all stacked in his favour. How many Discs out there actually get to pad on IJ by 4 healing it, or have their guild completely ignore dispels on FP or Sha? Heck, look at the Innervates he was fed on Thok. On a side note, I beat his Thok parse despite being 8 ilvls behind him, go me! If you actually look at his Thok log carefully, you'd realize that he failed to optimize his ToF uptime by proccing it off the Cave Bats.
    Uh. Well, for the 4 people on juggernaut - that's just something that happens when healers gets geared. We take the people who need loot from a boss, so for awhile we were doing 6-7 healers on sha of pride (lol PPoP), when it really only needed 5. Now though, we just kinda go with what we have - if a dps needs in and a healer wants to sit, we 4 heal. This goes for most fights that we know the healers can handle - not to mention that they need their "fun" on farm, too. DPS can keep increasing their numbers, but if you don't drop healers and rotate them in/out, then you're in for a very, very boring raid as a healer. Do you guys not drop to fewer healers on farm? As an example from earlier, we've dropped 25% of the healers we used to have on thok (8->6), and I don't think dropping another would be "impossible" - heck, take a look at paragon's farm raid. They used 4 healers for everything but Thok this week as far as I recall (2x discs, 2x shamans - one undergeared) because well, they have 4 main spec healers.
    As for ignoring dispells on sha - can you send us some healers, please? Ours just flat out can't be fucking bothered dispelling on farm. It's not even that we're "setting it up" - they literally just are too lazy to dispell. Only one of them throws out any (the healing officer), the others need to be reminded at this point. Same on FP, unless our disc ends up taking pity on us and mass dispelling. If you guys are still actually performing those mechanics, I can understand why you think it's "rigged" - but personally, to me, it just shows the guild is comfortable with the raid at this point and ignores minor nuisances by powering through, not an intention to rank.
    As for looking more carefully at thok, It's been awhile since I did him, but I seem to recall the bats either dying too quickly sub-35% to do anything major to my ToF, or people (especially the tank) dipping sub-35 enough that my atonement / divine star etc would keep a decent uptime. Not to mention that we're usually pushing him to about 40% or so by the time the bat spawns anyway now (so ToF would come from boss before bats).


    That being said, I know of quite a few excellent Disc Priests who will never rank very highly simply because a) their raid doesn't bother with healing parses and b) the raid runs with multiple Discs. Case in point - Undefiled, who was top last tier, hasn't gotten to parse much because I know Vigil doesn't underheal fights or ignore mechanics on bosses for healing parses (unlike certain other guilds). If you want a better gauge at how good a Disc Priest is, you're much better off looking at their progression logs whereby raids are much less inclined to approach fights with healing parses in mind. Even then, Disc Priests who are the sole Disc in the raid will typically parse better than those who have to compete with other Discs in their raid.
    And I'm sure there is. The issue is, there's no evidence to look at, so no conclusions can be drawn. As for progress kills, it'd be swell if the top end guilds weren't paranoid, but that's just not the case, so we can't see the first few kills. Also - gear is a much bigger factor as far as I'm concerned in the first few kills than anything. Get a normal PPoP and a warforged normal weapon first week? Gz, you're now 15% stronger than every other disc priest in the world that's stuck with ToT trinket/weapon. In that regard, farm is by far the best time to judge a person's potential output - sure, there's gear differences, but people will largely have full heroic sets at this point, putting most at +576-7 ilvl, at the very least. It "evens the field". Don't forget the vast difference in tactics guilds applies - Method vs Midwinter on Siegecrafter, anyone?
    I also have to disagree that "not underhealing fights" is an issue for a disc priest. I don't care how many healers you have - your absorbs goes first. If you're not ranking as a disc on a fight like Thok, it's sure as fuck not because you're still 7-8 healing it and there isn't enough damage going out. It's because you're not absorbing damage effectively enough.
    Also, more of an afterthought because you picked defiled and the fact that his guild wouldn't underheal etc - how the fuck did he get ranked so well last tier, if the guild does stuff "by the book", then? A lot of the fights became much, much harder to rank on as a healer the more gear you got (to a much bigger extent than most fights this tier) - off the top of my head:
    Horridon had less war god cries that added a big HPS boost, poison was less likely to end on the raid as killed faster.
    Council never got to shadow-phases, khazra pushed before he did any real dmg.
    Primordious less stacks = less chance for AOE dmg and hit weaker.
    Animus less jolts (heavy boost towards the end of the fight).
    Iron qon less smashes (we'd barely get 2-3 towards the end, he used to do like 8).
    Ra Den less time in P2.
    Lei shen less dmg from winds.

    To counter that, the fights in this tier that are largely affected by quicker kills dmg wise would be...
    Galakras (less time spent with dragon/AOE).
    Spoils (big bosses die much faster, they deal the major part of the AOE dmg).
    ...And that's it, really. There's a lot of bosses where you can end up skipping heavy damage phases, but that doesn't neccessarely hurt your HPS - for example, you're much better off HPS wise, ending thok right as the ice-door ends, than you are fighting another 3-4 minutes and doing the fire door - even with cds back up it'll be far less aoe dmg (as you'll be spending a ton of time kiting, then very little stacked up due to fire, then more kiting) and will lower healing significantly. Same goes for juggernaut (you skip an AOE phase, but you end the fight so close to the end of the first AOE phase that it's better than going to enrage) and Malkorok (same as before).
    So how come he's getting such low ranks now vs then? Did the guild shift mentality? Did he just stop trying? Doing things "by the book" was far more devastating to healer ranks last tier than this.

  7. #27

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  8. #28
    Cant believe theres still people out there that look at healing ranks, most pointless measurement i have ever seen. If you really wanna judge someone as a healer take a look at spellbreakdown, buff uptimes, and TIMING is key especially as a disc the main thing you need to do is heal when healing is needed, or obviously absorb, if the other healers can take care of it then you should really just fuck off the healing and smite, i have always seen disc priests that max their dps as the "better" disc priests because that is a much better way to actually kill bosses, seeing a lot of priests esp in 25 man aswell doing less than 50k dps on every fight is kinda sad, as an example i did 130k dps on my first garrosh heroic kill while the healing was never a problem and it would be pointless saying how much hps i did because me and the Hpally i healed with always planned exactly who would pop cds and heal what to max the dps output from me since i was a disc. Doing stuff that makes you kill progression bosses faster = being a good healer (or discpriest as this topic was)
    And if i personally would have to pick a best priest its an obvious one, jhazrun, he has so much experience that it isnt even funny + he is a true progression healer not one of those bullshit whores like the 25 man rankings are filled with now a days.
    Discmeedel of Ascendance on EU-Draenor
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