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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by FruitBat69 View Post
    Cata released - Worgen females look the same - "FFS its beta! Chill let them finish!!"
    MOP released - Pandaren look the same - "FFS its beta! Chill let them finish!!"
    WOD in development - ALL faces look the same - "FFS it's not even beta! Chill let them finish!!"

    How about no and we actually voice our opinions without assuming everything will be sorted out.

    If you want this changed voice your opinion NOW. Blizzard wants to hear critical feedback.
    The thing is PLENTY of people bitched and offered good criticism on these issues then. This "we must act now" thing is just romanticized thinking. Our concerns are already overwhelming regarding this issue feedback wise and they've been noted by the lead art team dev already. I'm not saying to be silent, but this "let's rally everyone" attitude is not really going to change anything barring something on par with the Real ID backlash or the Cata launch heroic difficulty backlash. And too many people in the community do not care for that to be possible IMO.
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  2. #162
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    They just need to make multiple ears (or other distinguishing feature by race, like tusks) and noses just like they did for Goblins. It really is the missing piece to all this.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Superman-BladesEdge View Post
    Before TBC went into Beta - "Draenei and Blood Elves look like shit!" - Blizz didn't care
    Before Cata went into Beta - "Worgen and Goblins look like shit!" - Blizz didn't care
    Before Pandas went into Beta - "Pandas are fat, stupid, and look like shit!" - Blizz didn't care

    Wanna wager if they will care or not after redoing most of the races? I bet I'll win
    What? First, Blizzard is free to disagree and not be called apathetic. Second, there was never any backlash about so and so looking like shit as you frame here. Blood Elves were complained about for being too frail and late in beta they were beefed up, it's unknown if the community did that as it was a divided issue. I don't recall anyone saying the Draenei looked like shit, until after they came out and you start seeing the people who don't like them calling the males fat for having exaggerated heroic cartoon musculature that is anything but fat.

    I think Pandaren and Goblin are the only race that were released pretty much as they were originally debuted. THough Goblins lost some facial options.
    But who the hell said Goblins looked like shit? That's been extremely rare in my anecdotal experience.
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  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by snuzzle View Post
    I'm going to assume that by "you" you mean a "general you" because I just hopped into this thread last night and have made all of three posts.

    But another voice saying "Yes, this concerns me" or "No, this doesn't bother me" is always useful, even if it's not new insight. Because it shows how another person feels about the issue, and I'd hope that Blizzard cares about what people think. If everyone said "I don't have anything new to say about Real ID on the forums" it wouldn't have blown up and made Blizz back down like it did and they did.
    At this point? No, it's not useful. If Blizzard had yet to acknowledge the issue then sure, pile on the complaints I guess. But they have acknowledged the issue. You've reached the amount of people necessary to get Blizzard's attention so further contribution is to be quite frank pointless. It would be like continuing to complain about Real ID after Blizzard announced they weren't going to go through with it, to continue with your metaphor.

    So please, just wait for the artcraft unless you actually have anything new to say.
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  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    Which was exactly the case with people complaining about sameface, whether people complained or not, WoD would have launched with no issue of sameface. Because so many people were concerned after seeing the Alpha/Beta footage, they decided to dedicate an Artcraft blog to alleviate everyones concerns. Once that artcraft launches and people's fears of sameface are shot into the sun, people are just going to find something else to complain about anyways. And so the cycle has been for the last 10 years and so it will continue for the next 10 years.
    I like to see things from every possible angle. I could see Robinson's artcraft telling us why what we've seen is close to what we will get, but I hope it's something like you're speculating on. Personally I can see a number of simple ways to do this better than what we've seen so far so I'm more optimistic Once beta is 2 months in, that's when it's time to start getting vocal despite the fact I'm personally uncertain it has ever made a single difference in the slightest.

    Sindorei males being bulkier could have been Blizzard's own decision. Worgen males were I think definitely intended to be updated to their current look long before the 21 days or so of beta forum arguments we had about the issue of "feral worgen" went down in between beta's launch and the new model's patched in beta release, I don't think Worgen female came from complaints either. The original Worgen male and female were clearly despite your opinion over their aesthetic design a generation apart in model and animation fidelity. I think aesthetic preferences are blinding some people to that disparity. Even though despite female worgens model generation being a step forward it had lots of sloppy loose ends in the animation and arguably questionable design fundamentals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    but I've got my torch and pitchfork ready in case the Artcraft on the subject is spent justifying samefaceing the new models.
    If it is, I think the saving grace will be the aforementioned and confirmed expanded customization being patched in later in WOD's life cycle.
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  6. #166
    Scarab Lord snuzzle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protar View Post
    At this point? No, it's not useful. If Blizzard had yet to acknowledge the issue then sure, pile on the complaints I guess. But they have acknowledged the issue. You've reached the amount of people necessary to get Blizzard's attention so further contribution is to be quite frank pointless. It would be like continuing to complain about Real ID after Blizzard announced they weren't going to go through with it, to continue with your metaphor.

    So please, just wait for the artcraft unless you actually have anything new to say.
    I'm going to go ahead and disagree. Blizz has said "We're going to acknowledge it," but they haven't officially done so yet because the artcraft hasn't been released. They know some people are unhappy, but if we all shut up about it until the official post, it might look like not as many as it is.

    I didn't see Blizzard say anywhere "We're not going to have sameface" like you're implying with your attempted continuation of my metaphor. It's more like they said "We hear your concerns about Real ID and are going to address them in the future." In fact that's pretty much exactly what they've said about the faces of the new models. So, no, you're wrong.

    Here's the thing: every time people have an issue with something in the game, there are always people there to tell them to stop posting. That's something I just don't get. It's not hurting anyone if we do post, and it might be useful, so what's the issue? What do you, or anyone, get out of coming into this thread and telling us to stop? If I think people are wasting their time posting, I let them, because it's their time.
    Last edited by snuzzle; 2014-03-15 at 09:48 PM.
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  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by snuzzle View Post
    I'm going to go ahead and disagree. Blizz has said "We're going to acknowledge it," but they haven't officially done so yet because the artcraft hasn't been released. They know some people are unhappy, but if we all shut up about it until the official post, it might look like not as many as it is.

    I didn't see Blizzard say anywhere "We're not going to have sameface" like you're implying with your attempted continuation of my metaphor. It's more like they said "We hear your concerns about Real ID and are going to address them in the future." In fact that's pretty much exactly what they've said about the faces of the new models. So, no, you're wrong.

    Here's the thing: every time people have an issue with something in the game, there are always people there to tell them to stop posting. That's something I just don't get. It's not hurting anyone if we do post, and it might be useful, so what's the issue? What do you, or anyone, get out of coming into this thread and telling us to stop? If I think people are wasting their time posting, I let them, because it's their time.
    It's certainly hurting many people's enjoyment of this forum. Even if Blizzard haven't outright said that there won't be sameface, they've said that they've heard us and will be getting back to us shortly. So I see no point in continuing to complain.
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  8. #168
    I'd be really disappointed if Blizzard's art team couldn't figure out a way to use textures and such to create the illusion of different face designs in the same way we have them now.

    I'm hoping that they're trying to save them for a big unveiling instead of trying to skulk away and hope we forget about the issue. It's been a factor since Goblin and Worgen came out, and again with Pandas, so you'd think they would try to deliver on those concerns.

    The game wouldn't be the same for many people, including myself, if everyone suddenly looked the same. I look at my character all the time, via my portrait, character info window, testing new transmog looks (I dislike helmets, and usually only go for the open-air ones) and all that crap. My characters are a large part of the reason I play this game to begin with. If I didn't feel so attached to them, I'd have quit long ago. So don't try telling me what I should think is important.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Geminiwolf View Post
    We've pretty much all looked the same for years anyway. I mean when you're playing WoW you don't really see the face of each character that clearly anyway unless you're in first person mode and right up in their face. That's even if they don't have their helmet on which in that case, if they do have it on, having the same face isn't even going to matter. This is why the same face "issue" doesn't bother me because we all already look like a bunch of clones running around. I mean, yeah, it's fun having lots of customizing options but in WoW's case, really, in all MMOs, having a different face really isn't going to matter all that much. Plus givin the fact that we're going to have facial animations now like the Pandarens, I'm not sure if it's even possible to have different unique faces for each race. Maybe that could be another reason why they added the option to use the old models instead of the new ones.

    And you know, the thing is we've been wanting new models for a long time and here we're finally getting it and now we're giving Blizzard shit because the faces aren't different. I mean come on people, when is it going to be good enough for you just say "Yeah that's awesome! Thanks Blizzard" instead of "Yeah yeah, we have new models now but they're not good enough, make them better!" I mean geez, let off a little bit. Plus they're not even close to being done yet, the beta isn't even out yet nor has it even been announced when it's going to be out so they could've been working on different faces anyway. So just be patient about this.
    I don't know whether to feel sorry for people like you or envy you. I think I'll stick with pity considering the thousands of hours of pure bliss I get from watching my avatars exist in these worlds constantly at all times maneuvering my camera into a constant variable of dramatic and compositional frames when not over half the time playing down at the level my character is experiencing the world over his shoulder, often going first person for quest NPCs. WOW's camera controls not only make this effortless, but I love form and color and even though I was a passing casual Warcraft fan in 2001 and 2002 and the 90s, I don't think you're aware of what Blizzard's arguably most touted and distinctive feature of all was going to be with their MMO compared to all other MMOs before it. At the time I'd been reading and following the first Warhammer Online's incarnation for a little while and had written Warcraft off pretty much as an amusing spoof of Warhammer. But even shots of Warhammer Online's announcement suffered from what all MMORPGs and even RPGs suffered from their inception up until WOW. The most rudimentary and token graphical quality you had to make due with in any gaming genre. Even though you could explore the illusion of traveling across lands with freedom, it looked rendered by mass produced assets and random terrain generators.

    Blizzard claimed they wanted their game to look like a painting, a whimsical stylized painting, at any moment in time you stopped and took a screenshot. And their screenshots at the time, while looking laughably bad now, seemed too good to be true. But they delivered beyond my expectations, exponentially. Even while simplistic, there was charm in everything and uniqueness. Every tree bent at its own angle, every bush seemed placed by hand. And they've only improved on that many times over with each expansion. And they forced a leap forward in visual quality for every competing MMO afterwards.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Galaddriel View Post
    Lazy excuse. Here are the face options for GW2's female charr, an animal race.



    Then you continue to customize in character creation by choosing height, physique, fur patterns, fur colors, fur pattern colors, type of horns, eye color, hair styles, hair colors and a whole host of sliders for eye angle, eye squint, iris size, eye size, brow placement, brow thickness, nose width at bridge, nose tip width, teeth size, tilt of jaw, tilt of muzzle, ear length, horn length, etc.

    It's hard to find 2 characters that look the same.
    Those are all so indistinct it doesn't make that much of a difference really beyond comparing the most literal of things, Blizzard goes for bold distinction over nuance. These all look like mostly nuances of the same 2 faces to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Female worgen got screwed up BECAUSE they listened to player whining, not because of a lack of it.... The models in alpha/beta looked more ferocious and more like wolves with different hairstyles.

    Then players started complaining and they changed drastically.

    The orc faces in the creation video had differences from what I saw.
    I doubt it. They mostly looked more geometric and made of cubes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BarosanuNr1 View Post
    They're just wrinkle sets that happen to create a noticeable distinction. The fact that the different painted faces apply to the same model doesn't diminish this effect of theirs. Sameface, even with moveable parts, on the other hand, still looks the same from one player to the other. Yes, pandarens' faces move, but they still move in the exact same way for everyone.
    People complain because right now, you can play a pandaren and I can play a human and both can be happy with it, but if all races will be like the pandaren, in the future I won't get to make such choices anymore.


    But the new models will apply to all other players and to all NPCs of that particular race/gender combo. It's going to be particularly noticeable in an expansion that has so many orc characters at its center.
    I mean, look at the gameplay videos that were posted. Durotan and Thrall look almost identical, and while they may get new models because they're important dudes, Durotan's guards won't. Neither will the numerous other orcs we will encounter. The world of Warcraft will, essentially, have only ~20 different people in it once you take out the major lore characters
    You can always toggle and keep the original models.
    Last edited by Yig; 2014-03-18 at 05:15 AM.
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  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Kierson View Post
    I'd be really disappointed if Blizzard's art team couldn't figure out a way to use textures and such to create the illusion of different face designs in the same way we have them now.
    The difference between then and now is pretty huge. If your job is to draw 10 variations of a face, which do you think will be easier: drawing it on 10 blank sheets of paper, or 10 highly detailed mannequin heads.

    In real life, a lot of what we think of as individual features of a persons face aren't on the skin, but the bones, muscles and fat underneath. A lot of taxidermists won't work on people's pets, because one you take the skin off the actual animal and put it on a generic wooden or plastic head, it doesn't look like your pet anymore.

    We have always had a "same-head" problem in WoW, but the heads were blank canvases and the textures were low resolution, making it easy for imagination to fill in the details. Now we still have same head, but the heads have lots of detail and higher resolution textures. There is no space for your imagination and it's shoved in your face that every single male orc has the same head, and the "face" is just a coat of paint.

    Edit: A 3d nose/ear option (like goblins) or an additional warpaint/scars texture layer could help a lot.
    Last edited by Darmalus; 2014-03-15 at 10:19 PM.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by snuzzle View Post
    I'm not sure what your point is by posting the worgen. You seem to be arguing that discussion at this point is meaningless, but yet people complained that worgen looked too soft and cuddly, and Blizzard agreed and changed them.

    People are allowed to complain. You're allowed to think it's pointless, silly, or overreacting. That's the thing about opinions, they're all different...
    There was a pretty even split on that, and I don't think Blizzard did it based on our feedback at all. That's claiming they whipped up that model and it's animations in less than 30 days. And there were plenty of people arguing otherwise. They were clearly implementing a new level of graphical fidelity that makes the original worgen look geometric and full of harsh edges and angles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snuzzle View Post
    I noticed it. Actually the tweet is what led me to this thread (linked on MMO-C's front page). However, why does that mean further feedback is pointless? We haven't read the Artcraft yet. We don't know what they're going to say or how they're going to address it. Why can we not continue to provide feedback until that point?

    I've been through this song and dance before. We were told "too late!" with female worgen. We were told "we're not changing a damned thing because worgen!" with female pandaren. I'm going to provide feedback early and often because I do not want to see the same thing happen with my beloved main.
    I never stated you should withhold our feedback.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by snuzzle View Post
    I'm going to assume that by "you" you mean a "general you" because I just hopped into this thread last night and have made all of three posts.

    But another voice saying "Yes, this concerns me" or "No, this doesn't bother me" is always useful, even if it's not new insight. Because it shows how another person feels about the issue, and I'd hope that Blizzard cares about what people think. If everyone said "I don't have anything new to say about Real ID on the forums" it wouldn't have blown up and made Blizz back down like it did and they did.
    It's also nice to just discuss an issue with other fans of the game and find like minded people. I acknowledge that as well.
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  12. #172
    Scarab Lord snuzzle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protar View Post
    It's certainly hurting many people's enjoyment of this forum. Even if Blizzard haven't outright said that there won't be sameface, they've said that they've heard us and will be getting back to us shortly. So I see no point in continuing to complain.
    How? You can simply not click the thread... doesn't hurt you at all...
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  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by snuzzle View Post
    I'm going to go ahead and disagree. Blizz has said "We're going to acknowledge it," but they haven't officially done so yet because the artcraft hasn't been released. They know some people are unhappy, but if we all shut up about it until the official post, it might look like not as many as it is.

    I didn't see Blizzard say anywhere "We're not going to have sameface" like you're implying with your attempted continuation of my metaphor. It's more like they said "We hear your concerns about Real ID and are going to address them in the future." In fact that's pretty much exactly what they've said about the faces of the new models. So, no, you're wrong.

    Here's the thing: every time people have an issue with something in the game, there are always people there to tell them to stop posting. That's something I just don't get. It's not hurting anyone if we do post, and it might be useful, so what's the issue? What do you, or anyone, get out of coming into this thread and telling us to stop? If I think people are wasting their time posting, I let them, because it's their time.
    For me it's all a matter of tone and presentation.
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  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by snuzzle View Post
    How? You can simply not click the thread... doesn't hurt you at all...
    It's hardly just in this thread. Everywhere I look there's pointless complaints about various features of WoD which we don't know enough about to judge.
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  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by snuzzle View Post
    I'm going to go ahead and disagree. Blizz has said "We're going to acknowledge it," but they haven't officially done so yet because the artcraft hasn't been released. They know some people are unhappy, but if we all shut up about it until the official post, it might look like not as many as it is.

    I didn't see Blizzard say anywhere "We're not going to have sameface" like you're implying with your attempted continuation of my metaphor. It's more like they said "We hear your concerns about Real ID and are going to address them in the future." In fact that's pretty much exactly what they've said about the faces of the new models. So, no, you're wrong.

    Here's the thing: every time people have an issue with something in the game, there are always people there to tell them to stop posting. That's something I just don't get. It's not hurting anyone if we do post, and it might be useful, so what's the issue? What do you, or anyone, get out of coming into this thread and telling us to stop? If I think people are wasting their time posting, I let them, because it's their time.
    Exactly, I hope to high heaven they are right and any further complaints and feedback fall on deaf ears because the one face problem has been addressed already and is to be shown soon but I'm not going to assume anything until I see it as you said we are not hurting anyone.

    Scenario: Blizzard: "Oh seems the problem with the one face has quietened down or just a few individuals we being vocal in the first place, maybe it wasn't a big deal lets add a quick fix and hopefully we will hear no more."

    Quote Originally Posted by Protar View Post
    It's certainly hurting many people's enjoyment of this forum. Even if Blizzard haven't outright said that there won't be sameface, they've said that they've heard us and will be getting back to us shortly. So I see no point in continuing to complain.
    What's more hurtful to the forums: complaining about something that's arguably a valid concern or complaining about the complainers that are complaining about a arguably valid concern? Anyway all you're doing by continuously defending and bumping these threads is helping us so tbh we should be grateful.

  16. #176
    Scarab Lord snuzzle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protar View Post
    It's hardly just in this thread. Everywhere I look there's pointless complaints about various features of WoD which we don't know enough about to judge.
    And yet, your posts do nothing to convince anyone to stop expressing their opinion. I see a lot of threads I don't care about, too. And then I don't post to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yig View Post
    There was a pretty even split on that, and I don't think Blizzard did it based on our feedback at all. That's claiming they whipped up that model and it's animations in less than 30 days. And there were plenty of people arguing otherwise. They were clearly implementing a new level of graphical fidelity that makes the original worgen look geometric and full of harsh edges and angles.

    - - - Updated - - -


    I never stated you should withhold our feedback.

    - - - Updated - - -

    It's also nice to just discuss an issue with other fans of the game and find like minded people. I acknowledge that as well.
    My apologies. I must have misread what you were saying. You do have a point about the male worgen, but I still think our feedback did influence the direction the new model took.
    Last edited by snuzzle; 2014-03-15 at 11:17 PM.
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  17. #177
    There should be a /set emotion ability that let's you see your face's mood. People keep saying that the emotions will be expressed via animations... but those animations seldom happen. I like my 100% always angry male gnome face. Or my other gnome with 100% goofy face.

    Look at this Gnome's face...

    LOOK AT IT! You will never see such unbridled goonery every again if they keep the samface.

  18. #178
    Scarab Lord snuzzle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yig View Post
    Those are all so indistinct it doesn't make that much of a difference really beyond comparing the most literal of things, Blizzard goes for distinction over nuance. There all look like mostly nuances of the same 2 faces to me.
    I don't think they're indistinct, and I think it hurts your argument to say that they are. If that was the level of difference we got from face to face in WoW, I would be over the moon.

    However, what they are is different face models, ie different geosets not just textures. You can see it especially in the nose and jaw, the actual facial geometry is different. It's much more apparent when clicking from face to face in the actual game. So they're not something that's really comparable to WoW where the only difference from face to face is texture.
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  19. #179
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    Texture swap works for a low poly models, but for a high poly model one does not simply swap face because the shape is defined by polygons.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    How about they finish all of the models first and release the expansion before we start complaining?
    Absolutely not. Worries need to be brought up during development. Do you truthfully believe that once the models are already released, that Blizzard will hop in and make a bunch of changes and additions to the animations?

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