1. #1

    [Holy] Changing from 10 to 25 man, need tips

    Hello,

    my name is Ragnek and since cataclysm I've been healing 10man heroics. Now that my guild has killed heroic garrosh, we decided to go 25 in order to prepair for mythic (20) raiding. We raided for the first time 25 man and I find it really boring atm to be honest....
    And I have some questions...:

    - What is the stat priority, what gems should I use? I Have 15k spirit atm, is it to much or is it fine?
    - Is eternal flame worth using? Do I only use it on tanks, and should I use Light of Dawn more frequently than Eternal flame?
    - What else is different in 25man? What do I need to know in order to be a good healer in 25 man? Hints, tips are welcome!

  2. #2
    I don't heal as a paly but I heal heroics in 25 man.

    I know so many healers that are completely incapable of healing ten man heroics but can heal 25 man heroic. The individual responsibility in 25 mans is diminished. Plus the combination of smart healing equals snooze fest. Some healers in 25H just spam mindlessly all their biggest smart heals and in ten you can't just spam mindlessly.

    But the thing is now you outgear the content so a lot of things you'd have to organize (such as healing CDs rotations, etc) you don't worry about now.

    Blizzard has said they are going to make healing more exciting in WoD with less smart healing and more mana management. In past experience heroic raiding at the start of the expac is fun but due to power stat inflation it becomes less and less interesting.

  3. #3
    Thanks for your reply. Indeed, there is just alot of AoE healing, and smart healing going on, and very few personal responsability atm which makes it pretty boring for me.

  4. #4
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Going from 10 to 25, here we go (personal experience as both a 25 and 10 healer this expansion and this tier).

    1) Stat Priority should be similar to 10 man. 15k spirit is fine for EF, though generally you may be able to get away with dropping more spirit if your comp for instance has a good # of Resto Shaman.

    2) EF is still worth using, but SH is more competitive in 25 man than 10 man especially for when fights reach farm status. If you're specced into EF you should still use it over Light of Dawn.

    3) As someone put, the state of 25m healing (and 10m healing, for that matter) this tier is pretty shoddy now with overabundance of smart heals and absorbs.

    Basically your game needs to be to put out as much throughput and absorb effects as possible, while still (similar to 10m) saving cooldowns and mana dumping for mechanics that damage your raid. Traditionally there is less individual responsibility in 25 man (because after all, it's impossible to require exactly the same responsibility from 25 people as 10 people and have the formats be realistically balanced) but a lot more blanket raid-wide damage/throughput requirements. ST healing (and tank healing) responsibilities take sort of a nosedive compared to 10 man just because typically you will have a lot of overhealing on the tank and smart healing on the raid.

    Part of this (less individual targeting, more raid-wide throughput) is why SH is more competitive in 25 man than 10 man right now.

    Aside from minding that ST healing is relatively less important than AoE healing in 25 versus 10, most of your 10 man experience should carry over to 25m.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2014-03-07 at 06:54 AM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    Traditionally there is less individual responsibility in 10 man (because after all, .
    Actually, there is a lot more individual responsibility in 10 mans compared to 25 - you will hit enrages on progression fights if even 1 person is down, but even if 2-3 people are dead in 25 man it's still more than possible.
    To be human is to possess superior intelligence to other species, yet channel that otherwise-wondrous potential into the most degenerate of endeavors rather than benefiting the world.

  6. #6
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Actually, there is a lot more individual responsibility in 10 mans compared to 25 - you will hit enrages on progression fights if even 1 person is down, but even if 2-3 people are dead in 25 man it's still more than possible.
    That was incorrect, I meant to say 25 man. The idea's that if you had the same, 25 would be ridiculously difficult just from laws of statistics.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    That was incorrect, I meant to say 25 man. The idea's that if you had the same, 25 would be ridiculously difficult just from laws of statistics.
    That's quite true, I guess it's already balanced by the faster rate at gearing up + brezzes.
    To be human is to possess superior intelligence to other species, yet channel that otherwise-wondrous potential into the most degenerate of endeavors rather than benefiting the world.

  8. #8
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    That's quite true, I guess it's already balanced by the faster rate at gearing up + brezzes.
    Gearing not really that is meant to be an incentive for people to actually do 25 man over 10 man since for a leader, organizing and dealing with 24 minions is much harder than dealing with 9.

    Resurrections to a point, but many mechanics are meant to be wipes that you can't just res out of, and statistically if each player had the same chance (say) to wipe the raid for a mechanic, you would see 25 man astronomically harder than 10 man.

    Napkin Math: Let's assume that we have a mechanic that each player in the raid has a ~10% chance of failing, and that would wipe the raid, otherwise you kill it. So the 10% is from progression + the fact that we're assuming most players are equally skilled (so they all have a % chance to fuck it up).

    On average a 10 man guild would require ~3 pulls to kill the boss. A 25 man guild would then require ~15 pulls, 5 times as much. It gets much worse with harder mechanics. Let's say there's one where you can fuck it up 20% of the time, a 10 man guild would require 10 pulls, a 25 man guild... 265 pulls.

    That's a lot of simplification but the bottom line is for the two formats to be equal, individual responsibility has to be less than on 10 man. So to compensate, group coordination is usually much harder on 25 man as is tuning.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    Gearing not really that is meant to be an incentive for people to actually do 25 man over 10 man since for a leader, organizing and dealing with 24 minions is much harder than dealing with 9.
    Gearing is indeed an incentive for people to do 25 man over 10 man because 25 man is harder to organize than 10.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    Resurrections to a point, but many mechanics are meant to be wipes that you can't just res out of, and statistically if each player had the same chance (say) to wipe the raid for a mechanic, you would see 25 man astronomically harder than 10 man.
    Only tank deaths are wipes you can't res out of, and even this is only applicable on a handful of fights.(Siegecrafter comes to mind)


    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    Napkin Math: Let's assume that we have a mechanic that each player in the raid has a ~10% chance of failing, and that would wipe the raid, otherwise you kill it. So the 10% is from progression + the fact that we're assuming most players are equally skilled (so they all have a % chance to fuck it up).

    On average a 10 man guild would require ~3 pulls to kill the boss. A 25 man guild would then require ~15 pulls, 5 times as much. It gets much worse with harder mechanics. Let's say there's one where you can fuck it up 20% of the time, a 10 man guild would require 10 pulls, a 25 man guild... 265 pulls.
    This is assuming losing 1 person in 10 man isn't more punitive than losing 2.5 people in 25 mans. In any practical situation, losing 1 player in 10 man is going to hurt you miles more than losing even 3 people at once in 25 man raiding.


    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    That's a lot of simplification but the bottom line is for the two formats to be equal, individual responsibility has to be less than on 10 man. So to compensate, group coordination is usually much harder on 25 man as is tuning.
    I agree that individual responsibility on 10 mans should be lower, however, it's not currently, and it's not going to be fixed anyway(at least, I don't consider completely throwing a problem out of the window as "fixing the problem").
    To be human is to possess superior intelligence to other species, yet channel that otherwise-wondrous potential into the most degenerate of endeavors rather than benefiting the world.

  10. #10
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Only tank deaths are wipes you can't res out of, and even this is only applicable on a handful of fights.(Siegecrafter comes to mind)... This is assuming losing 1 person in 10 man isn't more punitive than losing 2.5 people in 25 mans. In any practical situation, losing 1 player in 10 man is going to hurt you miles more than losing even 3 people at once in 25 man raiding.
    Not necessarily but we can't really make hard rules. It depends heavily on encounter.

    25 is punished more when you have "one death = wipe" mechanics. 10 is punished more as you pointed out when the worst you get is just... losing a DPS (since you can res 3 and even if you lose a 4th in 25 man it's easier to 24 man than to 9 man).

    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    I agree that individual responsibility on 10 mans should be lower, however, it's not currently, and it's not going to be fixed anyway(at least, I don't consider completely throwing a problem out of the window as "fixing the problem").
    "10/25 man exists, a problem exists. No 10/25 man, no problem."

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