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  1. #1

    Problem with subraces

    Alliance and horde are formed by currently available races. For subraces to be playable, high elves etc need to be introduced in alliance etc by lore.

  2. #2
    The Lightbringer Kathranis's Avatar
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    Most of the subraces, including high elves, are already part of the Alliance or Horde in the lore, they just aren't playable in-game.

  3. #3
    We have high elves in the Alliance (Silver covenant, etc)
    Dark Irons in Ironforge, Wildhammer to.
    Mag'har Orcs aplenty in Orgrimmar

    You get where I'm going.
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  4. #4
    The Lightbringer Zuben's Avatar
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    High elves are pretty much the only problem-race, as their progenitor model belongs to a Horde race, while they themselves are Alliance-affiliated. If they are to be playable, Blizz would either have to change lore to bring them into the Horde(yuck...), or give them to the Alliance and in turn give an "Alliance" subrace to the Horde(e.g. "redeemed" eredar/red spacegoats).
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

  5. #5
    Elemental Lord Snowraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    High elves are pretty much the only problem-race, as their progenitor model belongs to a Horde race, while they themselves are Alliance-affiliated. If they are to be playable, Blizz would either have to change lore to bring them into the Horde(yuck...), or give them to the Alliance and in turn give an "Alliance" subrace to the Horde(e.g. "redeemed" eredar/red spacegoats).
    They can solve the problem much easier. Make them white night elves.

  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Ciddy's Avatar
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    Yeah, I guess the High Elf (or even Blood Elf) model could be changed to allow for playable High Elves.

    I think the biggest problem with High Elves, lore wise, is that their population was almost wiped out. 90% of the High Elf population was wiped out when Arthas went after the Sunwell, and 90% of the survivors ended up becoming Blood Elves (I didn't dig deep into the sources on that, but it's what Wowpedia says). If that is the case, it leaves VERY few Alliance-loyal High Elves to support a playable race.

    Course, you could technically say the same thing about the Draenei. There was the whole genocide thing on Draenor where the Orcs went after them, and the fact that most of their world's population ended up becoming loyal to Kil'jaeden. But I never saw an actual "90% of the population" number mentioned anywhere, so it's possible that they ended up with more survivors than the High Elves did.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    High elves are pretty much the only problem-race, as their progenitor model belongs to a Horde race, while they themselves are Alliance-affiliated. If they are to be playable, Blizz would either have to change lore to bring them into the Horde(yuck...), or give them to the Alliance and in turn give an "Alliance" subrace to the Horde(e.g. "redeemed" eredar/red spacegoats).
    <sigh>

    This debate again.

    OK - it seems unlikely that Blizzard will give an Alliance race to the Horde. It's possible...but unlikely. At least while Blizzard still see the faction system as useful. No - it doesn't make sense for the BElfs to be on the Horde. But there we have it.

    Adding the HElfs to the game is a problem.

    As a subrace, they'd fit the BElfs very well. Big problem? The entirety of HElf lore in game is Alliance. That's not a minor issue.
    As an Alliance subrace - there are communities of HElfs in various locales. And they'd be an acceptable - kindof - subrace for NElfs. But the two don't mix. There isn't a HElf community in Darnassus. Stormwind would be acceptable, but they aren't human. You could mix them - a NElf subrace in Stormwind - but that still leaves the biggest problem.

    The HElfs share an identity with BElfs. More specifically...a visual identity. If you wanted to add HElfs to the Alliance, you'd need to give them a new visual identity. That's probably too much work for a subrace option. This is why the "give the Horde an Alliance race" idea was brought up. A cheap easy way to increase visual diversity and add new lore to both sides. Give the Alliance a Horde race (BElfs) and vice versa (???). That would kinda work, but at the same time, its not a fair exchange. There isn't any Alliance race that has the same resonance to the Horde.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2014-02-27 at 03:41 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ciddy View Post
    Yeah, I guess the High Elf (or even Blood Elf) model could be changed to allow for playable High Elves.

    I think the biggest problem with High Elves, lore wise, is that their population was almost wiped out. 90% of the High Elf population was wiped out when Arthas went after the Sunwell, and 90% of the survivors ended up becoming Blood Elves (I didn't dig deep into the sources on that, but it's what Wowpedia says). If that is the case, it leaves VERY few Alliance-loyal High Elves to support a playable race.

    Course, you could technically say the same thing about the Draenei. There was the whole genocide thing on Draenor where the Orcs went after them, and the fact that most of their world's population ended up becoming loyal to Kil'jaeden. But I never saw an actual "90% of the population" number mentioned anywhere, so it's possible that they ended up with more survivors than the High Elves did.
    model changing would not work. blood high and elves look the same. the only difference between them is culture and eye color(which has been stated since the sunwell is restored that blood elves will be getting their blue eyes back in the future.)

    90% high elvs were killed. 9% of the remain 10% became blood elves.
    so 1% is high elf and 9% is blood elf.

    i think Draenei have a higher population than high elves.
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  9. #9
    Adding lore and retconning things has never stopped Blizzard before. They can pull an entire hidden society of High Elves out of their magic lore hat if they so wish to. So, as far as lore, it's not a problem to make subraces at any given moment.

    My problem is the fact that they're putting way more thought into this than there needs to be. We don't need subraces as a separate type of playable character - I'd just like them as skin options. They're going to be making other orc and dwarf skin colors for WoD anyway. If their problem is, say, mag'har orc warlocks, I present them with Forsaken holy priests.
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  10. #10
    Not the only one sighing.. Blizzard should not waste art resources for a unique model for a subrace, which faction notwithstanding, is the most distinctly one could categorize the high elves, a subrace of the Sin'dorei. Notice, when they talk about us races that they might add, it isn't huge Amani trolls, things with genuinely different skeletons, it's... Dark Iron dwarves. I still prefer neutral race, but in all contexts, there has to be parity -- Alliance get a horde subrace, Horde get an alliance subrace. The Eredar idea has lore issues as well as a big honkin population issue. They will never just go ahead and give one faction access to the other's most played race without reciprocity.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Destinas View Post
    Adding lore and retconning things has never stopped Blizzard before. They can pull an entire hidden society of High Elves out of their magic lore hat if they so wish to. So, as far as lore, it's not a problem to make subraces at any given moment.

    My problem is the fact that they're putting way more thought into this than there needs to be. We don't need subraces as a separate type of playable character - I'd just like them as skin options. They're going to be making other orc and dwarf skin colors for WoD anyway. If their problem is, say, mag'har orc warlocks, I present them with Forsaken holy priests.
    They could use it as a means of handwaving new race-class combos. Same way as how Death Knights have their own sets of skins, certain classes normally unavailable to a race could have their own skins signifying that they're actually a different ethnicity. Orc paladins and priests? Mag'har, or a splinter group of Blackrocks like Eitrigg. Night elf paladins? High elves. Tauren rogues? Grimtotem. Or even going down to remodels, without the need for new animations. Forsaken paladins? Skeletons. Good luck feeling pain without a central nervous system.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    model changing would not work. blood high and elves look the same. the only difference between them is culture and eye color(which has been stated since the sunwell is restored that blood elves will be getting their blue eyes back in the future.)
    They look the same because Blizzard only needed to develop one model for the race. There wasn't any need to develop a separate model for High Elves because there wasn't any need to create distinct identities for either grouping.

    Humans have more than one model. Orcs have more than one model. Trolls have more than one model. And so on. Where there is a need to develop a different identity, Blizzard has done so.

    **IF** HElfs were to come in, and I do mean IF, then they'd either be a BElf subrace (no change necessary except blue eye glow) or they'd go Alliance. IF they went Alliance, there would then be a strong need to give them their own unique visual identity.

    Yes - I realise that there is an opinion that a race should be represented in game by only one model. But that "ideal" doesn't hold true now so why should HElfs be held to that standard? The issue is would it be possible for Blizzard to give HElfs that unique visual identity. The answer is yes.

    90% high elvs were killed. 9% of the remain 10% became blood elves.
    so 1% is high elf and 9% is blood elf.
    There is a lot of leeway given in the available figures. 90% of the HElfs in SM doesn't really include those living or working elsewhere for example, or those who were able to flee, or were travelling or were on Outland or whatever. Rounding errors alone could more than double that percentage. These figures are meaningless as a result.

    EJL

  13. #13
    Banned ViridianWRA's Avatar
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    I'd rather have High Elves as Wretched.

  14. #14
    Mechagnome Zhaine's Avatar
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    I'd love the broken to be a sub-race, I would roll one so fast!

  15. #15
    Ok so we knew that.

    A good point in the discussion but we didn't need a new thread about it
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    Alliance and horde are formed by currently available races. For subraces to be playable, high elves etc need to be introduced in alliance etc by lore.
    They dont need to. Alliance never suddenly kicked out all Black Humans, they never had a reason to. Same can be said about other races.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    High elves are pretty much the only problem-race, as their progenitor model belongs to a Horde race, while they themselves are Alliance-affiliated. If they are to be playable, Blizz would either have to change lore to bring them into the Horde(yuck...), or give them to the Alliance and in turn give an "Alliance" subrace to the Horde(e.g. "redeemed" eredar/red spacegoats).
    No. This in no way requires "fairness" or balance when lore is the yard stick, no more than we should balance hairstyles. If it makes sense do it, if it's just a token shoe horn, it's a waste of resources and a lame token attempt at appeasing petty bean counters and scorekeepers who will always find something to complain about.

    This entire notion was born of one thing. Wildhammers. TBC opened up Mag'har. Cata opened up all manner of things, Dark Irons, Wildhammers, Dragonmaw. WOD will open up even more with all the clans of Orc we will meet. This is something probably best left to content patches, and certainly not approached with the attitude of fair balanced 1:1 options per faction.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    <sigh>

    This debate again.

    OK - it seems unlikely that Blizzard will give an Alliance race to the Horde. It's possible...but unlikely. At least while Blizzard still see the faction system as useful. No - it doesn't make sense for the BElfs to be on the Horde. But there we have it.

    Adding the HElfs to the game is a problem.

    As a subrace, they'd fit the BElfs very well. Big problem? The entirety of HElf lore in game is Alliance. That's not a minor issue.
    As an Alliance subrace - there are communities of HElfs in various locales. And they'd be an acceptable - kindof - subrace for NElfs. But the two don't mix. There isn't a HElf community in Darnassus. Stormwind would be acceptable, but they aren't human. You could mix them - a NElf subrace in Stormwind - but that still leaves the biggest problem.

    The HElfs share an identity with BElfs. More specifically...a visual identity. If you wanted to add HElfs to the Alliance, you'd need to give them a new visual identity. That's probably too much work for a subrace option. This is why the "give the Horde an Alliance race" idea was brought up. A cheap easy way to increase visual diversity and add new lore to both sides. Give the Alliance a Horde race (BElfs) and vice versa (???). That would kinda work, but at the same time, its not a fair exchange. There isn't any Alliance race that has the same resonance to the Horde.

    EJL
    There could easily be a HELF communit in Darnassus after ten years of dealing with the Alliance as allies you bleed and die with. And then the Shen'Dralar.
    The rangers and magi of the Silver Covenant would be welcomed by Tyrande arguably in times of need like now. And Vereesa and Tyranda probably share rice wine and kimchi here and again. Look at when Malfurion himself encountered Kael'thas 100 centuries after he banished Dath'remar in TFT throne, there's not much enmity. The Night Elves look down on Blood Elves for Fel magic, but they relaxed considerably on the arcane. To Maeve's disgust.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    model changing would not work. blood high and elves look the same. the only difference between them is culture and eye color(which has been stated since the sunwell is restored that blood elves will be getting their blue eyes back in the future.)

    90% high elvs were killed. 9% of the remain 10% became blood elves.
    so 1% is high elf and 9% is blood elf.

    i think Draenei have a higher population than high elves.
    The Draenei have been breeding like bunnies since the spaceship crash, so I'd say in a few years there are more Draenei than orcs!! :P

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    model changing would not work. blood high and elves look the same. the only difference between them is culture and eye color(which has been stated since the sunwell is restored that blood elves will be getting their blue eyes back in the future.)

    90% high elvs were killed. 9% of the remain 10% became blood elves.
    so 1% is high elf and 9% is blood elf.

    i think Draenei have a higher population than high elves.
    High Elves could be given new postures befitting their personality, and skin tones and hair styles, as well as even animations depending on how much effort they went. Buying Pandaren fidelity ethnic races not quite strong enough for an expansion in the in game shop is something worth exploring to give them an excuse to devote the resources.
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  20. #20
    I really don't see the problem with having High Elves in the Alliance as a sub race. As a fully fledged race, I don't think they warrant it because they're so small in numbers, they're almost entirely integrated into human culture and it would mean the Alliance wouldn't get a brand new model, meaning a massive outcry about Blizzard being lazy. But as a human subrace (well subfaction)? What's the problem? Players get to fully participate in what's becoming an increasingly important part of Alliance lore, RPers get to RP High Elves on the Alliance. The only "problem" is that the Alliance gets a Horde model and really who does that effect negatively? No one really. I mean what do you want Blizzard to deny High Elves to the Alliance out of spite? I think this is one occasion where the lore should trump gameplay, especially as this is a rather superficial and aesthetic gameplay impact only.

    Having them as a subrace of Belfs instead makes no sense. The only things distinguishing Belfs and Helfs is the Helfs' disdain for the Belfs, their loyalty to the Alliance, and the blue eye colours. If High Elves are made Horde you have to remove the former two and homogenise them with Blood Elves. And then what have you got? Basically an eye colour option. Pretty pitiful, especially if other races are getting skins or even brand new models.
    Disclaimer: No I'm not Alliance. I reserve the right to bat for both factions thank you very much.


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