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  1. #1
    Blademaster
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    Old Players Still Repelled By Current System

    TLDR at bottom

    I think blizzard must but smoking some strong stuff if they think old raiders are going to be enticed into coming back to WoW in the next expansion when the flaws of the current system are in place.

    Until they reintroduce true raid progression then I don't know any of my old WoW friends that will bother coming back to this game whether they enjoyed the lore or not. And just to note that everyone I've ever made good friends with in game or outside has now quit. And that's been a hell of a lot of people since I started playing around 8 years ago.

    Blizzard can't seem to get their chops around the fact that a lot of the people who used to enjoy this game now don't enjoy it because they are FORCED to breeze through every raid on complete and utter EZ semi/afk mode before they get a chance to challenge themselves. This and the fact that the experience of defeating bosses so easily in game is completely underwhelming and undermines any wonder the raid has to offer.


    I'm fine with the fact that there are people who pay just as much money as me but don't have as much spare time as me that should be able to experience to content. But why is EVERYONE else forced to play at this bottom tier ultra casual level before they get to the real challenge? It completely destroys the merit and satisfaction of killing bosses.


    TLDR The current equivalent of this system is if you bought a new game and was forced to play it on super easy mode before you actually get to play it the way it was meant to be played. You don't see this in any other game because it would completely kill sales.

  2. #2
    Over 9000! Hyve's Avatar
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    What evidence do you have to support the fact that "Veteran Players" are "Repelled" by this new system?

  3. #3
    Warchief Seefer's Avatar
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    To answer your question, we really aren't forced to by Blizzard we are forced to by other players who want everyone to have the best gear they can do even think about joining their raids, by Blizz putting in better than heroic 5 man gear that gives the min/maxers yet another thing to require.
    "Of all the animals, man is the only one that is cruel. He is the only one who inflicts pain for the pleasure of doing it." - Mark Twain

  4. #4
    I'm confused. It seems like you're complaining about being forced into completing content on raid finder difficulty before doing it on normal. But that's not really possible since raid finder is always unlocked one wing per week starting the week AFTER normal is open. In order to complete the easy mode before normal, in a raid with four wings, you would need to ignore normal for the first five weeks.

    Or maybe you're complaining about the hoops a fresh 90 has to jump through to be ready for something like Siege of Orgrimmar. That's a reasonable argument, I guess, but it's also an argument for better catch-up mechanisms - which didn't even exist prior to wrath. I'd also point out that running raid finder for old raids isn't really even necessary with Timeless isle being what it is.

    Then again, maybe the catch up mechanisms are what you don't like. By that, I mean I noticed you used the phrase "true raid progression" so I'm going to assume by that you mean the vanilla or TBC style raid tiers. Back in those days, you really needed the gear from the previous raid tier to progress into the next. The downside, of course, was that it destroyed guilds. It destroyed guilds because when people stop playing (and people have always quit for some reason or another) there were very few candidates to replace them. So what happened is that when top tier guilds lost a player, they would recruit a player from a guild with slightly worse progression, so as to avoid having to gear up a fresh 60 or 70. The second guild in this scenario then had to "steal" a player from a third guild, and so on, else each guild find themselves needing to run previous raid tiers week after week to gear up new recruits. This type of guild behavior is why so few players ever saw pre-nerf Sunwell or level 60 Naxxramas. Maintaining a guild roster capable of progression was in many ways more difficult than the raids themselves.

    TL;DR I'm not really sure what you're getting on about. Raid Finder is mostly optional and catch-up mechanisms are a necessary evil because "true raid progression" destroyed guilds.

    Rather than complain about how things are, try explaining how you think things could be done better and ask people to consider the pros and cons of your suggestions.

  5. #5
    I'll never understand the arguments that making a game less friendly to casuals will bring in MORE players somehow.
    There's a very fine line between not listening, and not caring. I like to think that I walk that line every day of my life. ~ Private Leonard Church


  6. #6
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    I don't know about you, but I only step into one non-heroic raid per tier, and it's a normal mode raid the first week of the patch. I think that's pretty much okay in terms of "being forced to do ez mode content instead of the challenging stuff." Maybe you're talking about something else, like farming LFR/flex for set bonuses/trinkets, but that's not really being "forced" to do anything.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Byne View Post
    I'll never understand the arguments that making a game less friendly to casuals will bring in MORE players somehow.
    Because:

    Originally Posted by Bashiok
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways. We're all guilty of this behavior. There are also brain-chemical reasons that exist to help us form tighter bonds with those like us (safety in numbers), but be antagonistic against those not like us (self preservation). We all do this to some degree every day.

    So, in short: the internet.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/10161146150#10

  8. #8
    I don't know what this guy is smoking, a lot of these people that "used" to raid in "real" guilds always have something to say about what them and their friends do or don't like about what's currently going on in the raiding world. If your thirst is that strong for the "challenge" then I suggest you sign up for world firsts my friend, because you and your friends sound like some bad mama jamas. Sorry your friends quit and your dream of keeping your "been raiding together since MC guild" together isn't holding true. And as someone who has raided, both currently and when it was "real progression", I can say that these new players, wrath or cata babies whatever you want to call them don't give a flying rats ass if you were attuned to BT when it was current, or that you seen Naxx 40... and neither does Blizzard. I'd take banging my head on Archimonde for weeks after even clearing BT than the nightmare of trying to kill siegecrafter without tons of extra gear.
    Last edited by Bull; 2014-03-04 at 01:06 AM.

  9. #9
    LFR opens after normal(heroic)/heroic(mythic), so your logic is flawed.

    /thread

  10. #10
    Mechagnome Lefeng's Avatar
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    The original poster has a fundamental misunderstanding of raid progression in WoD.

    Raid Progression in this expansion was this:

    Tier 14 Normal -> Tier 14 Heroic -> Tier 15 Normal -> Tier 15 Heroic -> Tier 16 Normal -> Tier 16 Heroic

    NOT

    LFR -> Flex -> Normal -> Heroic.


    If one doesn't want to do LFR and Flex, then one doesn't have to. I'm really confused - you arguing that you should be able to skip normal and go directly to heroic?
    Last edited by Lefeng; 2014-03-04 at 01:50 AM.

  11. #11
    Pandaren Monk Fullmetal89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byne View Post
    I'll never understand the arguments that making a game less friendly to casuals will bring in MORE players somehow.
    My thoughts exactly, there like 10 of these threads everyday on MMOChamp. I don't think people realize how much WoW has improved from the so-called "glory days of Vanilla." As a veteran player who played since 04 I can tell you the game is about a 100x better today than it was during the first two years.
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  12. #12
    Immortal Chickat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insurge View Post
    TLDR at bottom

    I think blizzard must but smoking some strong stuff if they think old raiders are going to be enticed into coming back to WoW in the next expansion when the flaws of the current system are in place.

    Until they reintroduce true raid progression then I don't know any of my old WoW friends that will bother coming back to this game whether they enjoyed the lore or not. And just to note that everyone I've ever made good friends with in game or outside has now quit. And that's been a hell of a lot of people since I started playing around 8 years ago.

    Blizzard can't seem to get their chops around the fact that a lot of the people who used to enjoy this game now don't enjoy it because they are FORCED to breeze through every raid on complete and utter EZ semi/afk mode before they get a chance to challenge themselves. This and the fact that the experience of defeating bosses so easily in game is completely underwhelming and undermines any wonder the raid has to offer.


    I'm fine with the fact that there are people who pay just as much money as me but don't have as much spare time as me that should be able to experience to content. But why is EVERYONE else forced to play at this bottom tier ultra casual level before they get to the real challenge? It completely destroys the merit and satisfaction of killing bosses.


    TLDR The current equivalent of this system is if you bought a new game and was forced to play it on super easy mode before you actually get to play it the way it was meant to be played. You don't see this in any other game because it would completely kill sales.
    Diablo 3 15m sold. /end argument.
    Send me a PM and suggest a forum avatar based on my title, Immortal.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by VoodooGaming View Post
    What evidence do you have to support the fact that "Veteran Players" are "Repelled" by this new system?
    been playing 7 years and am not repelled, and I doubt I am only one. Do not assume your feelings are the same as everyones. If it were true I would think you were a 62 year old female with chronic feet problems and in pain 100% of the time. If you all are, I do feel sorry for you.

  14. #14
    Herald of the Titans Christan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insurge View Post
    TLDR The current equivalent of this system is if you bought a new game and was forced to play it on super easy mode before you actually get to play it the way it was meant to be played. You don't see this in any other game because it would completely kill sales.
    i know many many games that only have ez-hard unlocked, then you get a legendary/expert etc after you've beat it.

    or are you saying next raiders will have to to LFR-normal-heroic- before they can do mythic?
    afiak heroic/(the new normal) will be open right off the bat, and the (ezmode) will be open the week/2 weeks after heroic...

    i might be a little wrong with the terminology but put the proper words in order of difficulty in the right places(just woke up and haven't been keeping to close an eye on changes...to many spoilers ruin it for me)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    Diablo 3 15m sold. /end argument.
    as well as all of the newer castlevania's.
    but they did fix that in diablo3, with the pre-xpack patch
    you can make a new char on torment6 if you want(the new mp10
    difficulties are as follows, normal-hard-expert-master-torment'1-6
    there's no more beating normal to get to nightmare-so on. game monsters are based off you character level.
    Last edited by Christan; 2014-03-04 at 02:38 AM.
    Still I cry, tears like pouring rain, Innocent is my lurid pain.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Christan View Post
    i know many many games that only have ez-hard unlocked, then you get a legendary/expert etc after you've beat it.

    or are you saying next raiders will have to to LFR-normal-heroic- before they can do mythic?
    afiak heroic/(the new normal) will be open right off the bat, and the (ezmode) will be open the week/2 weeks after heroic...

    i might be a little wrong with the terminology but put the proper words in order of difficulty in the right places(just woke up and haven't been keeping to close an eye on changes...to many spoilers ruin it for me)
    This is still correct. It's unknown, however if "Mythic" will even be locked for the first week or not.

  16. #16
    Herald of the Titans Christan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackblade View Post
    This is still correct. It's unknown, however if "Mythic" will even be locked for the first week or not.
    so basically the OP is arguing an unknown point, and misguided thinking people will have to beat lfr-flex-normal, then able to go into heroic?
    or am i misunderstanding his argument?
    Still I cry, tears like pouring rain, Innocent is my lurid pain.

  17. #17
    The wannabe elitistveteranbutnoheroic-raider is gonna be strong on this thread! Why didnt you just progressed during the beginning of Mists of Pandaria?

  18. #18
    Until they reintroduce true raid progression
    True raid progression means more than a single tier of raiding at a time. Going from LFR -> Norm -> Heroic -> Mythic is hardly real raid progression, it's just repeating the same content, but harder and harder. I'm all for additional modes of raiding, but I think there needs to be more breadth in the raiding scene. Classic/BC WoW raid progression was too long, WotLK+ was too soft, imo.

  19. #19
    My experience is so very different to yours OP. I've been playing since Vanilla, as has my partner. All the people we know who started playing at the same time, as well as us, are now committed casuals and we like it that way. If it returned to compulsory hard care raiding of the kind we all knew in MC/BWL/AQ40 days, with no alternative forms of playstyle such as viable casual PVP and LFD/LFR, there would be no reason for us to play. Our lifestyles would render us unwelcome in such a game. We've all had kids, bought houses, gotten real career jobs - the days of staying up until late to progress on a boss are long, long gone for us all. Sometimes we do stay up late to play but it's only when we can. None of us can commit to a WoW schedule anymore.

    Was it fun at the time? Sure. But no-one knew any better...

  20. #20
    Herald of the Titans Aqua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insurge View Post
    Until they reintroduce true raid progression
    TLDR The current equivalent of this system is if you bought a new game and was forced to play it on super easy mode before you actually get to play it the way it was meant to be played. You don't see this in any other game because it would completely kill sales.

    ...The progression to raid is more streamlined than ever, you're implying that it is not 'true' progression on what grounds?
    Because I and many heroic raiders will be confused by your meaning. We're still raiding heroics at a steady pace, we all clawed our way through 5mans, LFR's (not me) and god knows how many dailies and then normal mode to get the edge we needed for our guilds progression. No one is forced to breeze through LFR. You're utterly barmy if you think any raider worth their cheese can't gear up with dailies and 5mans and then get into a decent flex mode. Barmy. You. That's you right now. Gem properly, enchant properly. And be on your best behaviour and you'll get noticed with time.
    Easier than bloody ever. No one is forced to run 'esimode' Those who run it are doing so for a proper reason.


    If there's no struggle to 'proper raiding' though, it lacks the catharsis that 'real raiding guilds' crave.

    My decently progressed but not cutting edge heroic mode raiding guild has taken in people from all walks of geardom So there's not really a true progression path in that sense? You can hop straight to hard mode if you know the right people and be nice to them.

    Also for that TLDR? MMO's are not 'most games'. Making anything other than loose comparisons will fail you in the subject, because what holds true for a single player game doesn't quite work in a mass multi format.

    And in my opinion LFR/Flex isn't exactly esimode. It's a trial by fire for not being around in the game recently. Trolls and afkers and assholes with no clue what they're doing. I'd say anyone who makes it through that and still has a willingness to progress deserves a spot in raiding heaven. You're not being tested in terms of gameplay but your social skills? Hotdamn are you gonna be tested.
    Last edited by Aqua; 2014-03-04 at 02:51 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by savutitus View Post
    Yeah, it's always WAR WAR WAR untill..BY ALL THAT IS HOLY DO YOU SEE THAT ENEMY OVER THERE?? GLORIOUS LOOT!!!!!

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