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  1. #1

    How to prove we are NOT traveling back in time, 99% sure

    Let me start off by saying: I am not writing this as a way to tell everyone "you WILL like this story." I'm not going to try to change anyone's opinion on the story of WoD. If you dislike it greatly, that's fine with me. I just wanted to clarify a very confusing aspect of the story using a simple thought experiment:

    What we know: Garrosh goes back in time to build the Iron Horde to attack us. So we invade his Draenor. So are we going back in time, or is it an alternate universe, or something else?

    I don't know what it is, but its very easy (relatively speaking) to prove we are not time traveling. The way this is accomplished is by comparing Warcraft time laws. Warcraft time laws are the same as ours. Time is relative.

    This is easily proven due to the fact Garrosh will have been escaped for a few months on Azeroth, yet builds up the Iron Horde for 2 years on Draenor. This proves time is relative. (We don't know how long it takes him to escape to Draenor, and what the 2 years is considered, but a few months is shorter than 2 years regardless).

    If time machines were possible: if you and a friend built a time machine, and your friend went back 100 years and stayed there for 20 years, and came back to the same moment he left, to you it would seem like he was gone for an instant. Yet he spent 20 years in the past.

    Here's where the proof comes in: if we were traveling back in time to Draenor, the near instant we left, we'd also come back, regardless of how much time we spent there. But we don't. Time appears to flow equally between AU Draenor and MU Azeroth once they are connected through the Red Dark Portal.

    The reason I say 99% sure and not 100% is we don't as of yet have any confirmation that communication of some sort exists between AU Draenor and MU Azeroth, but I'm sure there will be in the form of reinforcements and such.

    So in the end, I can't tell what technical term we will use for traveling to Draenor but more than likely its not time travel. Garrosh does, we don't.

    And also, I have no interest in telling people they should like or dislike the story, just wanted to clarify to the best of my abilities that it appears NOT to be time travel we are doing.

  2. #2
    The Lightbringer leaks's Avatar
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    It's an alternate dimension set in the past. This was explained by Blizzard multiple times.
    "Terror, darkness, power? The Forsaken crave not these things; the Forsaken ARE these things."

  3. #3
    Put your mind to something useful when you take adderall

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    Last edited by Darsithis; 2014-03-28 at 04:53 PM.

  4. #4
    That's exactly what time travel is, everything you explained above is what time travel is. If a person travels to a different universe 100 years in the past, and stays there for 20 years and comes back, as you explained above, it would seem the person was only gone for moments, that is definitely true, i agree.

    But here's the thing, it doesn't matter how much time the person is gone, they are still time traveling to a different universe that is set in the past. It is an alternate universe, since anything we do in Draenor doesn't affect Azeroth. But it is still time travel since the universe is set in the past.

    Not only is it time travel for Garrosh, it's time travel for us since we are using the dark portal to travel to a universe that is a different version of our universe that is set back in time. Sort of like a parallel universe. It's not that hard to understand, don't over think it. It doesn't matter how long you spend in that universe compared to our present universe, if the universe that you are traveling to is exactly likes our, and set in the past, then you are time traveling.
    Last edited by Noctredors; 2014-03-28 at 03:34 PM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    It's an alternate dimension set in the past. This was explained by Blizzard multiple times.
    Yes, but I get what Kazz is saying. When the portal is connected our times sync...so we are going to an AU not really back in time AND to an AU. Garrosh however is because he has to make this AU.

    Of course this is all meaningless really...since time is relative it doesn't matter as long as they are connected and in sync. Something you do in AU won't cease to exist if you leave and come back to it, because time passes equally as long as the portal is connecting the two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctredors View Post
    That's exactly what time travel is, everything you explained above is what time travel is. If a person travels to a different universe 100 years in the past, and stays there for 20 years and comes back, as you explained above, it would seem the person was only gone for moments, that is definitely true, i agree.

    But here's the thing, it doesn't matter how much time the person is gone, they are still time traveling to a different universe that is set in the past. It is an alternate universe, since anything we do in Draenor doesn't affect Azeroth. But it is still time travel since the universe is set in the past.

    Not only is it time travel for Garrosh, it's time travel for us since we are using the dark portal to travel to a universe that is a different version of our universe that is set back in time. Sort of like a parallel universe. It's not that hard to understand, don't over think it. It doesn't matter how long you spend in that universe compared to our present universe, if the universe that you are traveling to is exactly likes our, and set in the past, then you are time traveling.
    But this isn't the past for us...our past would be different than in WoD therefore we are traveling to a different universe not going to it and THEN going in the past. For all intents and purposes this is now a "New World" we can't go back in time in our world to see WoD. If we did and changed things like Garrosh and connected it to our world this would be another "New World" now at our present time no matter how much it looks like our "Past"

    The Key idea here is "Connected" if it is never connected to our time it is in fact in our past, but when connected it becomes its own thing.

    This is all speculation of course we can't test time travel and all this...but interesting to think about none the less

    AKA no one is right or wrong, don't take my post as telling facts just a theory
    Last edited by fredsterr; 2014-03-28 at 03:48 PM.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    It's an alternate dimension set in the past. This was explained by Blizzard multiple times.
    They'd have been better just having time travel! This alternate dimension rubbish reeks of desperation for a story, which is already pretty clear from all the rehashed content.

  7. #7
    Dreadlord Dawnseven's Avatar
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    Here's how I justify it my head, right or wrong. If we're going back to Draenor's past in our timeline (past-present-future) then we're time traveling. That said, nothing we do on Draenor in WoD will affect the future (i.e., Outland as we knew it) therefore it is an alternate dimension, not time travel.

    It's like if there was a different version of Earth, and we all had doppelgangers running around. There's a US, a Russia, a China, a Great Britain, etc. but they're all in entirely different places, women run the show, etc, etc. and you (as you are right now) come in with a zap on a cloud of brimstone and ask someone what year it is. Uh... 1982 they say. Did you just time travel back to 1982, or are you in a different version of Earth as you knew it (i.e., an alternate dimension)?

    Discuss

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnseven View Post
    Here's how I justify it my head, right or wrong. If we're going back to Draenor's past in our timeline (past-present-future) then we're time traveling. That said, nothing we do on Draenor in WoD will affect the future (i.e., Outland as we knew it) therefore it is an alternate dimension, not time travel.

    It's like if there was a different version of Earth, and we all had doppelgangers running around. There's a US, a Russia, a China, a Great Britain, etc. but they're all in entirely different places, women run the show, etc, etc. and you (as you are right now) come in with a zap on a cloud of brimstone and ask someone what year it is. Uh... 1982 they say. Did you just time travel back to 1982, or are you in a different version of Earth as you knew it (i.e., an alternate dimension)?

    Discuss
    Exactly what I'm thinking! Hard to explain, but when you get your head around it, it makes perfect sense.
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  9. #9
    I'm considering it as it was time traveling for Garrosh. Now it's dimension travelling, because you can't really go back in time and somehow end up in another reality. Also if it was time traveling completely, all the orcs would be brown now instead of green, since he stopped the corruption right?

    How Garrosh split it off into it's own dimension, I don't know.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    How Garrosh split it off into it's own dimension, I don't know.
    It maybe explained for all we know, but for now I look at it as anytime you change anything from the way it should have happened it becomes its own entity. Weather that world or our world some how is broken off from connecting they then become separated and don't influence each other in anyway. This is why anything they do over there is ok...it's when they try to come to our side that it is a threat.

    (If you try to think of Back to the Future this won't make any sense, these are 2 different concepts of what time travel would cause.)

    I just had a thought...makes Blizzard almost seem genius in the story telling for this...

    If what I said above is true and it becomes another reality you wouldn't be able to go to or contact the world you "left" because it is no longer connected. Since we know the Dark Portal was built to invade other worlds it makes perfect sense that it would be the only way to connect to us, thus making it possible.
    Last edited by fredsterr; 2014-03-28 at 06:33 PM.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by fredsterr View Post
    It maybe explained for all we know, but for now I look at it as anytime you change anything from the way it should have happened it becomes its own entity. Weather that world or our world some how is broken off from connecting they then become separated and don't influence each other in anyway. This is why anything they do over there is ok...it's when they try to come to our side that it is a threat.

    (If you try to think of Back to the Future this won't make any sense, these are 2 different concepts of what time travel would cause.)

    I just had a thought...makes Blizzard almost seem genius in the story telling for this...

    If what I said above is true and it becomes another reality you wouldn't be able to go to or contact the world you "left" because it is no longer connected. Since we know the Dark Portal was built to invade other worlds it makes perfect sense that it would be the only way to connect to us, thus making it possible.
    It may not have been explicitly explained how this particular case resulted in an alternate dimension, but it's all there in the lore. There are different methods of time-travel. When the Aspects lost their Aspect powers, the Bronze Dragonflight lost much of their mastery over time. What we've been doing on the Timeless Isle is to help Kairoz obtain a different method of time travel. However, the one he gains is less like the previous Bronze mastery of being able to travel back and forth in a given timestream, and more like he can jump into "a" past, or "a" future - not "the" past or "the" future. He is unable to alter the present through muddling with the past. I think Kairoz's goal, however, is to affect the future by affecting the present, through affecting the present via whatever means he has available - including creating an alternate dimension by affecting the events of "a" past.
    --
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    It may not have been explicitly explained how this particular case resulted in an alternate dimension, but it's all there in the lore. There are different methods of time-travel. When the Aspects lost their Aspect powers, the Bronze Dragonflight lost much of their mastery over time. What we've been doing on the Timeless Isle is to help Kairoz obtain a different method of time travel. However, the one he gains is less like the previous Bronze mastery of being able to travel back and forth in a given timestream, and more like he can jump into "a" past, or "a" future - not "the" past or "the" future. He is unable to alter the present through muddling with the past. I think Kairoz's goal, however, is to affect the future by affecting the present, through affecting the present via whatever means he has available - including creating an alternate dimension by affecting the events of "a" past.
    Yours ties in with the lore much more than mine
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    However, the one he gains is less like the previous Bronze mastery of being able to travel back and forth in a given timestream, and more like he can jump into "a" past, or "a" future - not "the" past or "the" future. He is unable to alter the present through muddling with the past.
    Oh...oh God....it's Bioshock Infinite. Except with more time.
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  14. #14
    It is a time traveling xpac wrapped in packaging called an alternate dimension. However, from a practical standpoint, and I bet from the position of the lore and storytelling, nobody will be able to tell the difference.

    This is a time traveling xpac. They get around some troublesome problems by calling it an alternate dimension, but it is going to quack, waddle, and look like the time travel xpac.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyattbw09 View Post
    It is a time traveling xpac wrapped in packaging called an alternate dimension. However, from a practical standpoint, and I bet from the position of the lore and storytelling, nobody will be able to tell the difference.

    This is a time traveling xpac. They get around some troublesome problems by calling it an alternate dimension, but it is going to quack, waddle, and look like the time travel xpac.
    I just think the reason they harped on "ITs NOT a time travel expansion" is because they don't want people worrying about how the lore will change because of what happened and change our time. AKA they don't want people complaining about time travel stuff before we get the real story of what is going on.
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  16. #16
    Originally Posted by Tom Chilton
    You're here to defeat the Iron Horde. These guys have found a way—as a result of Kairozdormu and his involvement—to connect this world of Draenor of 35 years in the past... have that portal get built up and connect to our time. And we have an imminent invasion. (Source)
    Originally Posted by Dave Kosak
    The easiest way to think about it is, when Garrosh goes back, he spins off his own timeline and that's all craziness going on over there. (Source)
    We are traveling to 35 years ago in an alternate timeline. That is still time travel.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
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  17. #17
    The Lightbringer Kathranis's Avatar
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    It's time travel into an alternate timeline -- which is how time travel works in a lot of fiction.

    People seem to misunderstand when the devs say it isn't a time travel expansion. They're saying it isn't about time travel, from a narrative standpoint. It uses time travel as a plot device to get the ball rolling by opening up a new setting and reintroducing classic characters. Beyond that, it's just a fantasy war/adventure story. No paradoxes, no alternate selves, no wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff.

  18. #18
    I will be a sad panda if we do not have a wand that looks like a Sonic Screwdriver in this expansion. A TARDIS mount might be a stretch, but at least a few nods to the Doctor should be present.

  19. #19
    The Lightbringer leaks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farabee View Post
    I will be a sad panda if we do not have a wand that looks like a Sonic Screwdriver in this expansion. A TARDIS mount might be a stretch, but at least a few nods to the Doctor should be present.
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=34984/th...ic-screwdriver
    "Terror, darkness, power? The Forsaken crave not these things; the Forsaken ARE these things."

  20. #20
    You are correct, "how if Garrosh only left for some months, he was there for 2 years? And when the dark portal opens, the time of the two universes synchronize?"

    I think the answer is that he is not the same Garrosh that left us. This garrosh left his own azeroth 2 years and some months ago, and then striked our universe. While the Garrosh from OUR universe, is in another draenor only just some months there, and in 2 years he will strike an Azeroth in another universe. There is actually a loop between parallel universes, and what one gives, it also takes.

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