Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Backjauer]

There isn't much to discuss though. But people should still be free to express their views whichever side of the argument they land on.

My opinion wont be changed by anything here, but if if people who like flying stopped protesting it'd be seen as some kind of "victory" and would the silence would be used to prove how popular being grounded is.

Likewise, if the people for being grounded stopped speaking up no doubt that would be used as evidence that no-flying was unpopular.

[rebecca191]

"Blizzard won't change their minds" is basically useless because it could be said about anything they've done ever. Except then later on they change all sorts of things because of sub losses. So we don't know yet. If you hate it as much as I do, do what I did and vote with your wallet. That's really the only chance at getting it back and that's why I don't understand the people who hate how it is right now yet stubbornly stay subbed in hopes of it changing. It won't unless it hurts them financially.

[melodramocracy]

They get a voice, it's called the "Why are you quitting" exit questionnaire at the end of cancelling.

Seeing as the questions there are rather leading, entirely optional, and you don't even see that questionnaire if you simply let your sub expire, I'd say that's a pretty tiny voice.

You can only hope that Blizzard gathers data from a myriad of sources, both sub-related and otherwise.

[Sweetpeaz]

Your argument is about as weak as it gets considering some people have quit the game due to not being able to fly. They don't get a voice. A poll that doesn't require a sub would be way more accurate than a bunch of angry forum goers.

That's completely irrelevant. They were able to give feedback as to why they quit. The polls people talk about here are for public display and thus, only used to further your own stance.

I suppose you're the type that thinks illegals should get to vote too....since after all, they need a voice too.

[Barkloud]

Just because people are shooting words at each other doesn't mean a discussion is being had.

http://i.imgur.com/nFwjZSn.jpg

See above picture that has been linked too many times in this thread that people still don't understand. A lot of people in this thread can't get past the first bubble, which mean's it isn't really a discussion being had with those people.

I have really tried to like no flying. I could even get used to it if I truly felt blizzard did this for the betterment of the game.

The problem I have is the explanation for the removal of flight. Bashioks whole fighting your way in thing. I did not experience that while leveling. I mean if the expansion was designed for no flight you would think it would include some of the reasons blizzard gave for no flight.

I know I have said here I do not leave my garrison and for the most part I do not. ThT does not mean I have not leveled multiple chars.

I mostly run straight up to the mobs I need to kill. The only time I stick around is for kill 20 of x.

It just seems like it was done to save money. I mean if it brings us faster content I am all for that. It is just sad to see blizzard half assing expansions.

Can you even compare WoD or mop to a wrath or BC in terms of size and scope?

[The Glitch]

I dunno I hear mostly from folks that flying ruins wpvp more than any other reason (purely from my own experiences of course and a few other things being said in here)

Why not make it do that when you activate pvp, it will deactivate use of flying mounts, that way those that do want to pvp on non pvp servers, and those on pvp servers won;t have the option to mount and fly away!

I'm still not *hating* having no flying, but I do miss it, I actually enjoyed it at the start, but now a few months in, I am missing it more and more each day, I miss the freedom, and it certainly is making me feel less like going out and doing certain content because I have to flight path it, never been a fan of flight paths, only ever really used them if I knew I needed to go afk for a bit, manual flying always kept me involved in the game.

Also makes some of the more tedious stuff in game less tedious for me.

I'm fine if they keep with the no flying though, so long as they make it a bit more interesting to be on a ground mount, currently I do feel they fell a bit short with their world content (rares/treasures/puzzles) not enough re-playability to warrant keeping us grounded in my opinion, but it is early doors, so hopefully things can only improve.

[corebit]

I dunno I hear mostly from folks that flying ruins wpvp more than any other reason (purely from my own experiences of course and a few other things being said in here)

Why not make it do that when you activate pvp, it will deactivate use of flying mounts, that way those that do want to pvp on non pvp servers, and those on pvp servers won;t have the option to mount and fly away!

I'm still not *hating* having no flying, but I do miss it, I actually enjoyed it at the start, but now a few months in, I am missing it more and more each day, I miss the freedom, and it certainly is making me feel less like going out and doing certain content because I have to flight path it, never been a fan of flight paths, only ever really used them if I knew I needed to go afk for a bit, manual flying always kept me involved in the game.

Also makes some of the more tedious stuff in game less tedious for me.

I'm fine if they keep with the no flying though, so long as they make it a bit more interesting to be on a ground mount, currently I do feel they fell a bit short with their world content (rares/treasures/puzzles) not enough re-playability to warrant keeping us grounded in my opinion, but it is early doors, so hopefully things can only improve.

As MoanaLisa said, WPVP and "immersion" are arguments made by some players who support no flight, but none of them are the main reasons why Blizzard removed flying. Blizzard removed flying because it countered their design principles, and based on the interviews they have regretted implementing flight greatly and wanted to remove it all these years.

The designers are very set in the no-flight decision even though they will simply tell you they aren't committed in one way or another and keep sending feedback to dodge any drama. As it stands now, nothing short of massive amount of unsubs because of no flight will convince them otherwise.

[Lane]

Look, if Blizzard honestly thinks trotting down a road with low level mobs attacking and dazing you is compelling, interesting content then there isn't much hope for the game going forward. If they're worried about people "skipping" mobs on a quest...add them to the requirements to complete the quest. This is not hard to design...boring? Sure, but not hard. All content and combat happens on the ground. How you get from your point of origin to the content you want to consume, that is the discussion. The stuff that happens between that isn't content, it is filler.

So much amen to this.

[MasterOfNone]

Just because people are shooting words at each other doesn't mean a discussion is being had.

http://i.imgur.com/nFwjZSn.jpg

See above picture that has been linked too many times in this thread that people still don't understand. A lot of people in this thread can't get past the first bubble, which mean's it isn't really a discussion being had with those people.

Ironic that just because people don't agree with you, it's cause to insult them more when you refer to obviously being productive in a discussion. Hypocrisy much?

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Who cares if it matters though? Blizzard doesn't, they aren't going to change their minds..........so it's a case of adapt or don't..........I didn't like changes to certain games so they lost my business, wasn't a big deal to me and they probably didn't care either but I found something I DID enjoy, and quite honestly I don't see the big deal, you can't just swoop in and complete quests or just fly around, big deal.

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They get a voice, it's called the "Why are you quitting" exit questionnaire at the end of cancelling.

If you really think blizzard wouldn't change under pressure of sub loss, you are dead wrong sir. They enjoy their job at blizzard, but a little tip about business...You have to make money as a company to keep that job.

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No website other than the quarterly reports are a reliable source, and last I hear there was a shit ton of subs right now.

Btw where did you hear that? Last I heard was numbers on launch. I can guarantee you there are not as many now as there was on launch. Lol. Not after this launch debacle.

[SilkforCalde]

I've said it before but: Flying trivializes trivial content. If the content isn't compelling, it is trivial. If it is so boring that people want to skip it, it is trivial and should be skippable. It doesn't matter if people skip it with stealth, riding through on ground mounts and feigning, or riding through and leashing or if they fly over it. The content isn't worth the time to do.

Nonsense. You make an enormous erronious assumption right at the start where you assume that people will only skip content because it isn't compelling. That's false and has been proven wrong again and again. People will skip amazingly designed content as long as there's another route that offers rewards more quickly, even if the faster route is more poorly designed.

Face it, flying ruined huge sections of this game and the removal of flying has been enormously positive.

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I dunno I hear mostly from folks that flying ruins wpvp more than any other reason (purely from my own experiences of course and a few other things being said in here)

Why not make it do that when you activate pvp, it will deactivate use of flying mounts, that way those that do want to pvp on non pvp servers, and those on pvp servers won;t have the option to mount and fly away!

I'm still not *hating* having no flying, but I do miss it, I actually enjoyed it at the start, but now a few months in, I am missing it more and more each day, I miss the freedom, and it certainly is making me feel less like going out and doing certain content because I have to flight path it, never been a fan of flight paths, only ever really used them if I knew I needed to go afk for a bit, manual flying always kept me involved in the game.

Also makes some of the more tedious stuff in game less tedious for me.

I'm fine if they keep with the no flying though, so long as they make it a bit more interesting to be on a ground mount, currently I do feel they fell a bit short with their world content (rares/treasures/puzzles) not enough re-playability to warrant keeping us grounded in my opinion, but it is early doors, so hopefully things can only improve.

Flying doesn't just ruin world PvP. It ruins questing. It ruins world design. It ruins the entire feeling you get of exploring a vast world. Whenever I go revisit older areas where I can fly, it feels cheap and hollow. It allows you to skip so much of the game and it gives you absolutely no benefit whatsoever.

[rebecca191]

And ground mounts ruin for me the feeling of exploring a vast world and it just feels like a bunch of little disconnected areas that you can't even see most of. I couldn't stand leveling in Pandaria for that reason. Sorry, but the way you feel is just an opinion, same as those that prefer flying. No flying is not objectively better. Flying had amazing benefits to me, increasing my fantasy immersion, the fun of zooming down a waterfall, into a valley, looping around bridges, flying to see the tallest mountain and then looking down at the view.... allowed zones with huge scale like Storm Peaks which would have been ridiculous if designed for ground only... offered a fast and fun way to travel... flying added TONS to the game for me and I most likely would have quit early in BC without it because already in vanilla I couldn't stand travel. As it is I stuck around for several more expansions and only quit at the end of MoP (because of no flying in WoD). Storm Peaks and Icecrown were flying zones, and for me had some of the best questing this game has ever had.

[Baconeggcheese]

You people need to understand that immersion is being used as a literal term.

You are immersed in the world when you are in it, you are not immersed in the world when you are flying over it.

No different than you being immersed in water when you are in it, vs not being immersed in water when you are hovering over it.

You are trying to mis-use the damned word to make your argument. Rebecca making the same goddamn post for hundreds of pages.

[Barkloud]

You people need to understand that immersion is being used as a literal term.

You are immersed in the world when you are in it, you are not immersed in the world when you are flying over it.

No different than you being immersed in water when you are in it, vs not being immersed in water when you are hovering over it.

You are trying to mis-use the damned word to make your argument. Rebecca making the same goddamn post for hundreds of pages.

I have to wonder why the anti flyers work so hard to change our opinion. I would think they would be playing the game. I like many in this post, but if flying were added back tomorrow I doubt you would see me post in here again.

You have the game how you like, why not just play?

[Baconeggcheese]

I'm not anti-peoples opinions, I'm anti-bullshit arguments. Use good arguments and I'm all for it.

I'm also pro-discussion and anti-gridlocked due to refusal to stop using shit arguments.

We've long since established that there are people who want flying back and people who don't want it back, it's not productive to the discussion to continue stating that shit over and over and over.

What we could be talking about is constructive things like what we'd like to see improved in the absence of flight or ways to improve the world in the absence of flight or some shit like that since we're all pretty damn sure it isn't coming back anytime soon (hence the damned thread title). But instead you guys wanna keep having the same.exact.arguments over and over and over and over and over.

We get it, you like flying and want it back, there's nothing wrong with that. You repeating it 1000x is not constructive. Unless your purpose on this forum is to be upset and complain, please attempt to be constructive and stop holding the thread back.

[Deleted]

Yes, but that is something that we, as players, overlook willingly in the pursuit of the raiding experience. It's not immersive to kill the same bosses over and over and over (Did you ever do that in PnP RPG?). It's an extension of content by making people want/need to kill the same bosses repeatedly either trying to get a certain piece of gear, or clearing the next hurdle towards the next boss.

Oh I very much agree that isn't immersive, but the TBC system isn't casual friendly enough. Different difficulties makes sense as far as I'm concerned, but killing the end boss (or progressing) through the same bosses on different difficulties is far less epic than progressing on them once. Personally, I am also OK with casual players just killing a boss much later (I prefer this way of progression), but Blizzard went with the current system of multiple difficulties and I gotta accept that's the way its gonna be. An easy solution is to just lock loot based on boss kill instead of independent difficulty lockouts. I'm not sure if it'd be a good solution though. Its a subject which warrants a discussion in a separate thread.

BTW, let me make one thing very clear. If there is a significant amount of customers who want flying (nobody is going to convince me that, its hypothetical) and if I knew a solution where the pro flying people could keep flying, and those who don't want flying wouldn't (while being enforced, cause nobody self nerfs as I explained countless of times) I'd be interested in it. I had the same opinion on CRZ when it was introduced: give us an option to disable the bloody thing, to stick on your realm. Saying you should just "control" yourself isn't a good solution. Players go for the path of least resistance, unless there's a reason for discipline (e.g. Iron Man challenge).

I can't think of a solution. I mean, you could have flying on PvE realms, and non flying on PvP, but some rolled PvE or PvP for other reasons (related to PvP). You could have flying for an extra fee which is warranted by those who claim they have limited time. I just can't think of a solution I find elegant in the current situation.

Without an elegant solution, even though it may seem backwards for those who got used to flying at max level in current expansion in the past 4 expansions, I do think the current situation is the best, and I don't think the problem is as big as some are -IMO- blowing it up out of proportion. That's a problem for Blizzard, not knowing precisely how many customers they're losing (or keeping/gaining).

Alts are what kept Blizzard afloat for 4 expansions when content ran out. During WotLK when you could obtain badge gear, people leveled many alts. Then we had heirlooms. Then the old world was re-done? Why? To encourage people to level more alts. Same with a new class.

We're not yet at that end of expansion quite yet tho. Monk never got very popular (DK did). Alts are a way to keep doing something with the sub, I don't think alts are a primary reason players remain subbed. If you completed the content you completed the content.

Just because you didn't get it, doesn't mean others didn't as well. I don't play to socialize. I have friends in the real world. There's no need to confuse a person you met in game, as anything more than a brief acquaintance.

I only have social interaction with my guildies who I progress with on Mythic, our core raid team. Maybe some former raiders, and people I met throughout the years. For the rest, nothing, while the realm is quite populated.

I can also understand you don't want to play the game too serious after working for 10 hours, and that certain gaming activity can be therapeutic, and then going to old content just for flying while we're in expansion called WoD is just... I do understand it, I just don't find it a good argument to bring back flying, its an argument which makes me understand your annoyance with lack of flying and reason for unsub. I've only unsubbed once in this game: when Shadow was bottom DPS in HoF in 5 out of 6 encounters, and was being outDPSed by Holy single target. I gave Blizzard than and CRZ as reason for unsubbing. I came back right before ToT which, while Shadow still wasn't well, was one of the best content patches in WoW history IMO. Ironically, I also abused CRZ in every possible way when I came back. Regarding Shadow, it took a while, but Blizzard has listened to a lot of our concerns.

Just because people are shooting words at each other doesn't mean a discussion is being had.

http://i.imgur.com/nFwjZSn.jpg

See above picture that has been linked too many times in this thread that people still don't understand. A lot of people in this thread can't get past the first bubble, which mean's it isn't really a discussion being had with those people.

Good pic, linking it can def. be reflective. Tho you can't decide that for others; they can only do that for themselves. What appears or what you see being expressed might be only but a glimpse. Especially for those with introverted thinking. Its so easy to judge... yawn.

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And ground mounts ruin for me the feeling of exploring a vast world and it just feels like a bunch of little disconnected areas that you can't even see most of. I couldn't stand leveling in Pandaria for that reason. Sorry, but the way you feel is just an opinion, same as those that prefer flying. No flying is not objectively better. Flying had amazing benefits to me, increasing my fantasy immersion, the fun of zooming down a waterfall, into a valley, looping around bridges, flying to see the tallest mountain and then looking down at the view.... allowed zones with huge scale like Storm Peaks which would have been ridiculous if designed for ground only... offered a fast and fun way to travel... flying added TONS to the game for me and I most likely would have quit early in BC without it because already in vanilla I couldn't stand travel. As it is I stuck around for several more expansions and only quit at the end of MoP (because of no flying in WoD). Storm Peaks and Icecrown were flying zones, and for me had some of the best questing this game has ever had.

I just can't fathom this post. Everything you wrote applies for me to flying apart from obvious flying zones like Icecrown and Storm Peaks. Even getting into Wintergrasp via flight, and how you get dismounted (and how you could exploit to get into certain areas) wasn't an epic experience. Its a good thing you vote w/your wallet tho, I can only applaud and respect that.

[rebecca191]

You people need to understand that immersion is being used as a literal term.

You are immersed in the world when you are in it, you are not immersed in the world when you are flying over it.

No different than you being immersed in water when you are in it, vs not being immersed in water when you are hovering over it.

You are trying to mis-use the damned word to make your argument. Rebecca making the same goddamn post for hundreds of pages.

Nope, you are the one who is wrong. Immersion is about feeling part of and immersed in the game world and story. I feel that immersion with flying. I do not with a ground mount because it ruins suspension of disbelief and is illogical. That is the kind of immersion the poster I was replying to was talking about, feeling involved in the game/world. Which I feel with flying and not with a ground mount, hence how he feels is just an opinion and not fact.

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I just can't fathom this post. Everything you wrote applies for me to flying apart from obvious flying zones like Icecrown and Storm Peaks. Even getting into Wintergrasp via flight, and how you get dismounted (and how you could exploit to get into certain areas) wasn't an epic experience. Its a good thing you vote w/your wallet tho, I can only applaud and respect that.

Well for me, flying was the most epic thing added to this game and ground travel is just garbage that should have been left in the dirt after we outleveled the lower levels. I wanted to fly my own mount in vanilla, I heard flying was coming in BC and it kept me playing in anticipating. The only reason I could tolerate the leveling restrictions on flying was knowing if I kept on leveling I'd get flying back. I had that, I enjoyed it for years, now it's been taken away from me and it sucks, because ideally I'd rather be playing the game, problem is the game I want to play is no longer available. And I get told I was playing the wrong game, when it was the completely RIGHT game for me for eight years and 80% of the game's life.

BTW, let me make one thing very clear. If there is a significant amount of customers who want flying (nobody is going to convince me that, its hypothetical) and if I knew a solution where the pro flying people could keep flying, and those who don't want flying wouldn't (while being enforced, cause nobody self nerfs as I explained countless of times) I'd be interested in it. I had the same opinion on CRZ when it was introduced: give us an option to disable the bloody thing, to stick on your realm. Saying you should just "control" yourself isn't a good solution. Players go for the path of least resistance, unless there's a reason for discipline (e.g. Iron Man challenge).

I said it pages ago. Have a mix of different types of zones at max level. Have some designed like Isle of Thunder, no flight allowed. Have some designed like Icecrown or Storm Peaks where you gotta fly and it's designed around that. Let people do the content they enjoy and if they are a completist that wants to do 100% of the content they just gotta deal with doing the one they like less. But leaving one group that loved something in the game for almost the entire time the game existed, with zero content in an entire expansion is ridiculous and I refuse to support it financially. A fair compromise is having flying in some new areas and not in others. I don't have to have flying in 100% of new content to play, I dealt with IoT and TI I even went there for achievements sometimes because I knew I could just leave at any time and go back to mainland Pandaria and do something where I could fly around and have fun with how I enjoy the game.

[Gray_Matter]

Nonsense. You make an enormous erronious assumption right at the start where you assume that people will only skip content because it isn't compelling. That's false and has been proven wrong again and again. People will skip amazingly designed content as long as there's another route that offers rewards more quickly, even if the faster route is more poorly designed.

Face it, flying ruined huge sections of this game and the removal of flying has been enormously positive.

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Flying doesn't just ruin world PvP. It ruins questing. It ruins world design. It ruins the entire feeling you get of exploring a vast world. Whenever I go revisit older areas where I can fly, it feels cheap and hollow. It allows you to skip so much of the game and it gives you absolutely no benefit whatsoever.

The problem is that the questing is only meaningful up to 100. So for those 2 weeks of leveling it might (I don't necessarily agree) make sense. Subsequent to that it just becomes a hindrance.

[rda]

BTW, let me make one thing very clear. If there is a significant amount of customers who want flying (nobody is going to convince me that, its hypothetical) and if I knew a solution where the pro flying people could keep flying, and those who don't want flying wouldn't (while being enforced, cause nobody self nerfs as I explained countless of times) I'd be interested in it.

I know you are saying you have explained it countless times, but I am not sure what exactly you are losing by being on the ground in WoD. In MoP, for example, you were losing farming (= gold, translates to a lot of things including progress) and dailies (= gear / progress, because they were too spread out and so time to travel to them mattered). In WoD, you are only losing speed to archeology sites and pet trainers, with both of them being related to already tedious and grindy side activities. Is this what you mean by self-nerf or is there something else?

[velde046]

Its wasting your time from a competitive PoV. If everyone has to drive 30 km/h when there's children playing on the street its OK, whereas if you drive 60 km/h on a highway where you are allowed to drive 100 km/h you are nerfing yourself, and affecting others by doing so. So what happens is people adapt to the status quo.

If you are allowed to bot in the game whilst I get banned for it then you get free gold (or other resources) which due to laws of economics you gain and I lose. If you are allowed to fly and I am not then you get an unfair advantage from that because you get to do your treasures whilst I need to solve the puzzles. You get to get to the world boss quicker than me. You get to avoid the mountains I have to drive around cause you got superman technology and I don't. I already tried to explain it 10 times to you now, you need an equal playing field in a MMORPG.

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Really, you want flying in Draenor because you enjoy it as an activity? WTF? What is it you enjoy about flying? And can't you just like go fly around in Eastern Kingdoms, Kalimdor, Northrend, Outland, or Pandaria? Or try a flight sim.

Can't someone enjoy something you don't? I like to fly too, a lot of the areas look awesome from the sky, even though the world becomes 'smaller' it looks grander from the sky for me personally. I was so glad when I got Aviana's Feather so I was able to look down from up high and enjoy it. The design of the areas becomes so much clearer and you realize how well the design is (not for travelling though but creativity and look).

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You people need to understand that immersion is being used as a literal term.

You are immersed in the world when you are in it, you are not immersed in the world when you are flying over it.

No different than you being immersed in water when you are in it, vs not being immersed in water when you are hovering over it.

You are trying to mis-use the damned word to make your argument. Rebecca making the same goddamn post for hundreds of pages.

You are misusing it too, The sky/air is also part of a world.... so you are still immersed whilst in the air.

[Pyromelter]

Flying doesn't just ruin world PvP. It ruins questing. It ruins world design. It ruins the entire feeling you get of exploring a vast world. Whenever I go revisit older areas where I can fly, it feels cheap and hollow. It allows you to skip so much of the game and it gives you absolutely no benefit whatsoever.

The only flying flying "ruins" is the ridiculous walls that says my mount can't step up over a small rock going up a hill.

Flying ruined zero questing, and zero world design, just as in RPG games where questing and leveling is the entire game, namely the Final Fantasy series. Or are you seriously going to tell me that getting an airship in FFVII ruined questing and world design? It allows for easier transport at or near end-game, which, I know this might come as a shock to you, is exactly how it worked in wow until WoD.

As has been told many times as well, nothing is preventing you from traversing the world on the ground. And there is a benefit, which is efficiency. Know what airships in the FF series give you? Travel efficiency.

I know, shocking, right? Faster/more efficient travel as a feature of gameplay. It's almost as if game desginers were learning that RPG'ers like to min/max their playtime. Back in 1997. But please, by all means, keep encouraging blizzard to use 1980s game design in the 21st century. And I'll continue to send them zero bucks for their backwards design philosophy.