Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[rda]

Pssst... it's already been pointed out he made a mistake and there's a straight line path up a ramp at the bottom of the lake there.

This means little, there are other places with no shortcuts.

[Deleted]

This means little, there are other places with no shortcuts.

It means everything when he was talking about a specific location, quoted as a specific location with a diagram plotted out to show the supposed absurdity of the whole situation. Presented as an example, only for it to be proven wrong then you what? You dismiss it with a wave of the hand and pass it off as irrelevant. I shall remember this deflection technique, next time I present false information and am called out for it. I shall too just shrug and declare that as 'not the point' because there would be an example elsewhere. I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure.

[rda]

It means everything when he was talking about a specific location, quoted as a specific location with a diagram plotted out to show the supposed absurdity of the whole situation. Presented as an example, only for it to be proven wrong then you what? You dismiss it with a wave of the hand and pass it off as irrelevant. I shall remember this deflection technique, next time I present false information and am called out for it. I shall too just shrug and declare that as 'not the point' because there would be an example elsewhere. I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure.

Alright, ignore the example, there are places with no shortcuts, but since I didn't point to one, this argument hasn't been made, whatever. It's a bit stupid - what, you dispute that there are places with lengthy routes and no shortcuts??? you need someone to show you them?? - but fine.

[Deleted]

Alright, ignore the example, there are places with no shortcuts, but since I didn't point to one, this argument hasn't been made, whatever. It's a bit stupid - what, you dispute that there are places with lengthy routes and no shortcuts??? you need someone to show you them?? - but fine.

Really?

I am yet to find someone thrilled about having to find their way in this mess

This mess... pointing specifically to the map quoted also in the same sentence implying that you have accounts from a third party about a fictitious requirement for a quest (the aforementioned someone or lack thereof). I understand that there are some places with longer requirements for circumnavigation, but if you have a point to make, do not use evidence which has been proven to be false. The evidence to back up your arguments should be the evidence that actually exists in the world, not just in the mind. For this reason, indeed it would be better if that example was indeed ignored and in future if persons wish to use diagrammatic example, use one which is actually truthful.

[MasterHamster]

And why does every single part of the open world have to have a shortcut to it?

[Blackcoffin]

Yeah, except noone does more exploring and looking around than before (everyone in garrisons / "capitals" / instanced content). You can't really force people to explore other than by providing rewards / making interesting content, but more importantly, you don't have to - people will explore plenty if you "just" do the latter - make interesting content.

I thought exploring was content in it's own right. You know, enjoy the scenery, traverse the environment, finding Easter-eggs, "hidden" paths. Content or lack-thereof is highly personal. I wonder why I feel I have so much to do, and you so little?

[Slant]

There you have it, folks. Call of Duty is now considered "artistic game design". No wonder the games market has went to utter dogshit the past couple years (indie stuff notwithstanding).

Have you ever played Antichamber? Seriously, you're talking to me about mazes, confusing players, forcing them to backtrack and you call that artificial gating and it sucks... and then tell me indie games don't do that?

Play Antichamber and GTFO... seriously.

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A good storyline makes you want to follow the story. If you a forced down a path to experience it, it doesn't speak highly for the story. Doesn't matter what I say since you will just gloss over it and defend Blizz anyway. Lack of flight sucks. Period. I would like to fly on Draenor. I will wait til 6.2, and if flight comes to Draenor, my money goes to Blizz. Otherwise, until I get flight back, I will just keep playing SWTOR and spending my money with EA/BW.

The mind boggles... how damaged does someone have to be to rather spend money with EA than... I don't know, put their head under a chainsaw. But okay, it's your money, do with it what you want.

I'm not someone who blindly defends Blizzard. You don't know me. You are in no position to judge me. So stop insulting me with your assumptions. I am not ashamed to defend my point of view, even if it coincides with what Blizzard says. And the way they guided the player through to the Garrison was one of the best if not the best plot unravellings in an MMO that I have ever seen. If you deny that, I'll put you straight on ignore... I dare you.

I have played SW:TOR before you even created that MMO-C account, so I know their storylines are rather good (this has been partly the old Bioware after all). And I also know that they guide you just like WoW does. Every game designer does it. It's how you tell a story in an interactive medium.

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Statements like "no flying in Draenor is terrible game design" are opinions, not fact. There are millions of people that don't bother with posting on any kind of forums that seem to not care about it , since they continue to resub. If they are unhappy with it and continue to sub, then that's their decision. It's their money to with as they please. Until sub numbers drop significantly and we find out for an absolute fact that no flying is the reason for the decline, then everything said here is speculation and really not worthy of a 2000 page argument.

I bolded the important words so people wouldn't think I'm saying something that I'm not.

If I wanted to be anal about it, I'd point out that people unsub for all kinds of reasons, so if you wanted absolute fact, you'd have to ask each and everyone of them why they unsubbed... but meh, don't feel like being anal today, so you're totally right!

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In order to train your beast (stables) with the Darkwing Roc on your list, you have to fly in to the Throne of Elements and then follow the ONLY path that goes up and around to get you there.

The other "option" is to backtrack 2/3 of the way, head mostly into the opposite direction, grab a glider, and hope you are high enough. With flight, I could just lift off at the base of the mesa table, and go straight up 50 feet.

Or... you could just use the feather and fly there. *shrugs*

Of course, you'd have to actually play the game instead of whinging on a forum...

[-Superman-]

I'm not someone who blindly defends Blizzard. You don't know me. You are in no position to judge me. So stop insulting me with your assumptions. I am not ashamed to defend my point of view, even if it coincides with what Blizzard says. And the way they guided the player through to the Garrison was one of the best if not the best plot unravellings in an MMO that I have ever seen. If you deny that, I'll put you straight on ignore... I dare you.

I have played SW:TOR before you even created that MMO-C account, so I know their storylines are rather good (this has been partly the old Bioware after all). And I also know that they guide you just like WoW does. Every game designer does it. It's how you tell a story in an interactive medium.
Or... you could just use the feather and fly there. *shrugs*

Of course, you'd have to actually play the game

You vehemently defend them, and that is your right to do. You seem to agree with every "design choice" they make and even have something of a kinship with the developers. As for the bolded comment, and this is getting off topic:

Garrisons are the WORST thing to ever come to Warcraft. And here's why:

- Poorly designed: Undercity is laid out more user friendly
- Immovable: Campaigned at Blizzcon that we would name/move them to any zone
- Overly self-sufficient: Trade mats for resources and vise versa, never having to go out and farm
- Condones afking in a safe spot to Trade Chat or wait for a queue
- Followers bring you raid epics of Normal or Warforged levels

and a dozen other things keeping you from ever having to venture outside and fly through zones to see and experience them. Anyone who can support garrisons wholeheartedly while spitting in the face of aerial travel and exploration should stop encouraging Blizz to implement this garbage and go play Facebook. We wanted a small house somewhere to decorate with stuff and put out trophies of accomplishment, not Fort Copypasta where we would have ZERO reason to ever leave, ESPECIALLY without flight. No flying in Draenor + Garrisons = Log in, play for 20 mins, log out.

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Pssst... it's already been pointed out he made a mistake and there's a straight line path up a ramp at the bottom of the lake there.

Yep, and I already copped to my first mistake of the thread.

[khalltusk]

About the stables mounts, these are all do-able in a couple of days Max. I got all the rewards from the stables in just over a week or two of being max level if I remember rightly. It did not take long at all. Sadly I did not know it at the time but it was one of the few reasons to go out in the world =[ I combined it with lumber mill tree farming and it was enjoyable for a while. Flight would have made it easier sure. But I did not mind much as most of the mobs were close to a FP so it was not a big deal.

[Slant]

You vehemently defend them, and that is your right to do. You seem to agree with every "design choice" they make and even have something of a kinship with the developers. As for the bolded comment, and this is getting off topic:

Garrisons are the WORST thing to ever come to Warcraft. And here's why:

I'm not even arguing with that, as it's a lot about personal preference and I agree with a lot of the points you make, especially that it's way too self sufficient. But I was talking about the way leading up to the Garrison. The "player campaign" if you will.

[Deleted]

I understand convenience but (and I'm certain this has already been said in the 1944 pages comprising 38000 responses) some people just want everything to be easy and accessible. Entitled players.

[Deleted]

I understand convenience but (and I'm certain this has already been said in the 1944 pages comprising 38000 responses) some people just want everything to be easy and accessible. Entitled players.

Wanting to fly has nothing to do with being entiteld.

People already seen all there is to see, there is no need to keep us on the ground.
I been playing for 10+ years now and I cannot be arsed riding my damn horse around to get from dig site to dig site.
I want to go achievement hunting and I want to do it fast, I seen all the damn things there is to see in this game in the last 10 years. Dont need to see another cliff, rock or tree because they havent changed and are just in my way to get from A to B.
Especially in goddamn Nagrand, how I hate that place.

[quras]

SNIP....
Or... you could just use the feather and fly there. *shrugs*

Of course, you'd have to actually play the game instead of whinging on a forum...

Thats right gamers! Just fly up there because if you used your flying mount it would ruin endgame.

WTH kind of drugs are these people on? "Flying has ruined so many parts of the game!" Then turn right around and say, "So, Just fly up there if you don't like to ride."

Thats why we cannot have nice things.

I understand convenience but (and I'm certain this has already been said in the 1944 pages comprising 38000 responses) some people just want everything to be easy and accessible. Entitled players.

Only once you have done it already and mostly in open world travel. It one thing to ride around while leveling to discover the world. Having to deal with mobs you have been dealing with for 10 levels over and over again gets a bit old especially at max level. My God killing, dragon slaying, titan destroying, undead slaughtering orc killer should be able to skip a few worthless mobs getting to where he needs to go (AKA quest objective) come max level or shortly after.

There should be convenience at max level with a bit of ease and accessibility at max level. Of all the things wrong with the other expansions, having flying at max level wasn't one of them.

[-Superman-]

I'm not even arguing with that, as it's a lot about personal preference and I agree with a lot of the points you make, especially that it's way too self sufficient. But I was talking about the way leading up to the Garrison. The "player campaign" if you will.

That campaign was just as cheesy. They kept calling me "hero". I have a name. Now they call me "commander". I still have a name. The opening segment was little more than rails, running you through a set maze to unlock the zone. Just like every other zone on Draenor. Rails. I miss the freedom to pick which zone I want to level in (Wrath and Cata). Being forced through a scenario is poor design. If you have to force a story, rather than the story being compelling enough to pull people in... something is wrong. Now we have that in every zone and the freedom of travel is still not even an option. So yeah, the player campaign was different, but hardly compelling. The continued lack of flight on Draenor has given me the chance to stop wasting money on Blizz til I see what the 6.2 launch actually brings. No flight... no sub.

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I understand convenience but (and I'm certain this has already been said in the 1944 pages comprising 38000 responses) some people just want everything to be easy and accessible. Entitled players.

We've already had flight at max level for 8 years prior to this lackluster turd of an expansion. If wanting what we have always had makes me entitled, then so be it.

[khalltusk]

That campaign was just as cheesy. They kept calling me "hero". I have a name. Now they call me "commander". I still have a name. The opening segment was little more than rails, running you through a set maze to unlock the zone. Just like every other zone on Draenor. Rails. I miss the freedom to pick which zone I want to level in (Wrath and Cata). Being forced through a scenario is poor design. If you have to force a story, rather than the story being compelling enough to pull people in... something is wrong. Now we have that in every zone and the freedom of travel is still not even an option. So yeah, the player campaign was different, but hardly compelling. The continued lack of flight on Draenor has given me the chance to stop wasting money on Blizz til I see what the 6.2 launch actually brings. No flight... no sub.

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We've already had flight at max level for 8 years prior to this lackluster turd of an expansion. If wanting what we have always had makes me entitled, then so be it.

There is nothing wrong with how the story calls you Hero or Commander. You cannot cal everyone by their names in audio files. It would take up too much time and data + money to do. So have a compromise of commander while the text says your name.

The rest of your post - Cata was Linear, you got to pick where you started after that you went through the quest flow in each zone. It was very much on rails. Flight may have helped you think overwise perhaps. Wrath I would agree was far less linear in how you can choose which zones to do.

[-Superman-]

There is nothing wrong with how the story calls you Hero or Commander. You cannot cal everyone by their names in audio files. It would take up too much time and data + money to do. So have a compromise of commander while the text says your name.

The rest of your post - Cata was Linear, you got to pick where you started after that you went through the quest flow in each zone. It was very much on rails. Flight may have helped you think overwise perhaps. Wrath I would agree was far less linear in how you can choose which zones to do.

Cata didn't feel so much like rails, not only for flight while leveling, but also because you could level up to 82 in Mt Hyjal or Vash, and then hop to Deepholm, then wrap it up with Twi-Hi or Uldum. Plus, Tol-Barad in between to help out. Free form flight during Cata took it off the rails, and the leveling options helped. The only problem with Cata was how disjointed it felt with the zones spread all over, and certain old world favorites getting complete overhauls. I hated what happened to Westfall but LOVED what happened to Thousand Needles. Flight made all of that bearable. Wrath was nice cause you could start at either side and work your way to Icecrown. At 77, flight was only really needed in Storm Peaks and Icecrown anyway. The story was compelling enough that lack of flight from 68 to 77 was no big deal.

[Deleted]

For me, its not a problem if we never fly in this expansion

[khalltusk]

Cata didn't feel so much like rails, not only for flight while leveling, but also because you could level up to 82 in Mt Hyjal or Vash, and then hop to Deepholm, then wrap it up with Twi-Hi or Uldum. Plus, Tol-Barad in between to help out. Free form flight during Cata took it off the rails, and the leveling options helped. The only problem with Cata was how disjointed it felt with the zones spread all over, and certain old world favorites getting complete overhauls. I hated what happened to Westfall but LOVED what happened to Thousand Needles. Flight made all of that bearable. Wrath was nice cause you could start at either side and work your way to Icecrown. At 77, flight was only really needed in Storm Peaks and Icecrown anyway. The story was compelling enough that lack of flight from 68 to 77 was no big deal.

The idea for Cata was do 81-2 in Vasjh/hyjal then go to deepholm until around 83 then hit Uldum and then finally TH at 84. Some people were able to cheese it a bit, but it was very much on rails. On launch I had to do Hyjal - Deepholm - Uldum - TH in that order and got to 85 in first 48-72hours. So rested XP didnt help much.

Flight would almost certainly help combat the on rails questing, which was very much a thing in cata.

Wrath however was slightly different loads of different hubs in each zone and multiple zones. I enjoyed the way you could do, either starter zone head to DB then you could do a bit in G hills then either try Zuldrak or ungoro then you could finish up in Stormpeaks/ice-crown. Crystal song was a huge let down though. Didnt do anything there.

[-Superman-]

The idea for Cata was do 81-2 in Vasjh/hyjal then go to deepholm until around 83 then hit Uldum and then finally TH at 84. Some people were able to cheese it a bit, but it was very much on rails. On launch I had to do Hyjal - Deepholm - Uldum - TH in that order and got to 85 in first 48-72hours. So rested XP didnt help much.

Flight would almost certainly help combat the on rails questing, which was very much a thing in cata.

Wrath however was slightly different loads of different hubs in each zone and multiple zones. I enjoyed the way you could do, either starter zone head to DB then you could do a bit in G hills then either try Zuldrak or ungoro then you could finish up in Stormpeaks/ice-crown. Crystal song was a huge let down though. Didnt do anything there.

On my main, I did 80-83 in Hyjal and then the rest of 83 to 85 in Uldum. I missed every other zone. My next character started in Vash, then went to deepholm and never made it anywhere else. My last one did Hyjal and then Twi-Hi, missing every other zone. There were infinite possible ways to level, and all of them came with flight. Of them all, Wrath was my favorite for compelling content, storylines, and options for leveling.

[khalltusk]

On my main, I did 80-83 in Hyjal and then the rest of 83 to 85 in Uldum. I missed every other zone. My next character started in Vash, then went to deepholm and never made it anywhere else. My last one did Hyjal and then Twi-Hi, missing every other zone. There were infinite possible ways to level, and all of them came with flight. Of them all, Wrath was my favorite for compelling content, storylines, and options for leveling.

That does not invalidate what I said. It was designed with the quest flow I mentioned in mind. How you went about is different though I did all the major story lines in those zones and had JUST enough to level. You may have came in and did it entirely on rested XP or when they buffed XP. At the start I would be entirely surprised you could do that as there was not enough quests there to get you so high. Dungeon leveling was also not that bad in Cata I did a lot of my XP gains on my alt in those.

Still MoP was a little more on rails and wod even more so. Cata was just the start of on rails questing. To say otherwise is misleading.