1. #5201
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    SNIP....

    You cant raid or PvP with such a defeatist mindset.

    Seeing as you could never fly in those areas it's a non-issue.

    However, removing a game feature we have grow accustomed to and had for 7 years and many paid real money to acquire interesting flying mounts, it would have been best to leave it where we can get flying at max level instead of the crap their feeding us now, where flying is being held back or possibility removed.

    It's a move I wont support.
    Last edited by quras; 2014-04-09 at 01:24 AM.

  2. #5202
    Quote Originally Posted by quras View Post
    Seeing as you could never fly in those areas it's a non-issue.

    However, removing a game feature we have grow accustomed to and had for 7 years, it would have been best to leave it where we can get flying at max level instead of the crap their feeding us now, where flying is being held back or possibility removed.

    It's a move I wont support.
    Why is this the best course of action? people have complained about flying for a long time, leaving it in, because some people like it, doesnt mean it is the best course of action

  3. #5203
    No Flying mounts ?!!!?!?! FINALY!!!! i Hope they do that. And for all the whiners out there who are complaining about that.... you definetly wouldnt!! if you would know how WoW changed after they gave us flying mounts....before flying mounts all the Alliance/Horde feeling was on a whole different level... today nearly no one cares..
    Also the world felt like 1000% more alive... i guess most of the player today dont even know that there was a time where there was shit going on "everywhere" and not only in instances and battlegrounds...
    Last edited by evridej; 2014-04-09 at 01:28 AM.

  4. #5204
    The Insane smrund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Why is this the best course of action? people have complained about flying for a long time, taking it out, because some people don't like it, doesnt mean it is the best course of action
    See what I did there?
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
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  5. #5205
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    There is NO flight point on Klaxxi'vess, because it is assumed you will be there on a flying mount. There is no flight point on Shan'ze Dao because it is assumed you will be there on a flying mount. They assume at max level that you have a flying mount and design the game around it. In WoD, this wont be the case.

    And many many things do not support ground based travel. Getting to Pandaria requires you to fly to the gunship.
    actually there is a flight path at Klaxxi'vess, it's a Klaxxi...he flies you wherever you want to go.

  6. #5206
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    See what I did there?
    But I'm backing up that claim with an argument, whereas the statement

    However, removing a game feature we have grow accustomed to and had for 7 years, it would have been best to leave it where we can get flying at max level instead of the crap their feeding us now, where flying is being held back or possibility removed.
    takes for granted that it is the best course of action to leave it in. He just states it would have been best to keep it in, with no argument as to why it is true.

  7. #5207
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanzlee View Post
    not hard, slow.
    And this has been covered 100x over. It's not going to be significantly slower getting where you need to go.

  8. #5208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    But I'm backing up that claim with an argument, whereas the statement
    If "people complained about it a lot, therefore it should be removed." then the converse: "people like it a lot, therefore it should be implemented" is also an argument. Neither one has anything to do with the actual merits (or demerits) of flying. Of course, if Blizzard went and removed everything that people complained a lot about, well...I don't think there'd be much left.
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    People in cars cause accidents. Accidents in cars cause people.
    Sometimes life gives you lemons, other times life gives you boobies. Life is always better with more boobies.
    Blizzard removed my subscription from WoD's features, it'll be added sometime later.
    And thus I give you: MALE contraception!

  9. #5209
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Why is this the best course of action? people have complained about flying for a long time, leaving it in, because some people like it, doesnt mean it is the best course of action
    Giving in to whiners rarely results in good design. For example, one of the refrains of people who want flying gone is "But world PVP!!! Flying ruined world PVP!!!" This ignores that 1) Some of us play on PVE servers so there IS no world PVP to speak of and we're fine with that and 2) any PVP server that's heavily imbalanced will have no real world PVP either. Oh and 3) instanced BGs killed world PVP.

  10. #5210
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    And this has been covered 100x over. It's not going to be significantly slower getting where you need to go.
    but it will be slower.

  11. #5211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Obviously we'll have to wait and see, but they said they want to combine the best parts of TI and the lore chain from Lions Landing/Dom Offensive. If they succeed, that would be the best endgame zone ever.
    I agree, Patch 5.1 and 5.2 were two of the best patches in the game's history in my opinion.
    That Alliance vs Horde war in Krasarang, tower objectives, shells flying through the air, blademasters and mountain kings, if there had been no flying it would have been even better.
    Blizzard also improved a lot on their storytelling in those 2 patches, lots of dialogue and plot, fun puzzles and when they really wanted to get an event across they used a solo scenario so that you can get the whole picture.

  12. #5212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanzlee View Post
    but it will be slower.
    also, when I worked to make thousands of gold ingame, to get epic flying, of multiple characters over the years, even having paid full price for it when it was at its height, I didn't want some crackhead developers saying all that work, to get epic flying on all the toons have have, would be for nothing this expansion.

    I added it all up, and the amount of gold I spend on getting character epic flying, and flight training for expansions since tbc, not including standard riding skill in vanilla for many characters or the cost of things like my warlock or paladin mount in those times, and the cost comes to 153750 gold

    Now, given how much gold and time I spent on getting these characters in the air, to enjoy that aspect of the game, and given the time I spent getting epic flying mounts for the reason to fly them, being told I can't fly them in draenor because the developers have a sudden itch to 'try something different', well sorry, but f**k them.
    Last edited by Trassk; 2014-04-09 at 11:35 AM.

  13. #5213
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    also, when I worked to make thousends of gold ingame, to get epic flying, of multiple characters over the years, even having paid full price for it when it was at its height, I didn't want some crackhead developers saying all that work, to get epic flying on all the toons have have, would be for nothing this expansion.
    Crackhead XD.

    Thanks for that image! :P

    I am in two minds as to this no flying lark. On the one hand it might be cool to use my ground mounts (I have so many) on the other I might be AFK flight pathing more than usual.

  14. #5214
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    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    Crackhead XD.

    Thanks for that image! :P

    I am in two minds as to this no flying lark. On the one hand it might be cool to use my ground mounts (I have so many) on the other I might be AFK flight pathing more than usual.
    nobody wants to be using flight master all the time. people were happy when we could stop using that shit when we got flight of our own.

    And as said, give the amount of gold people put into buying flight for there alts, and then being told you can't use it for an whole expansion is taking the piss.

  15. #5215
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    Quote Originally Posted by evridej View Post
    No Flying mounts ?!!!?!?! FINALY!!!! i Hope they do that. And for all the whiners out there who are complaining about that.... you definetly wouldnt!! if you would know how WoW changed after they gave us flying mounts....before flying mounts all the Alliance/Horde feeling was on a whole different level... today nearly no one cares..
    Also the world felt like 1000% more alive... i guess most of the player today dont even know that there was a time where there was shit going on "everywhere" and not only in instances and battlegrounds...
    You avatar is showing you being blinded by your nostalgia shades. And your imagination.

  16. #5216
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Why is this the best course of action? people have complained about flying for a long time, leaving it in, because some people like it, doesnt mean it is the best course of action
    Why is it the best course?

    Cause we know through blizzard own words that removing flying allows them to create smaller areas. Do less and currently we're paying more for less if we take blizzard by their own words.

    We also know that one of the most request features ever (right beside dual spec) was flying. Don't believe it, go back and look at blizzcon videos when flying was announced. Flying has probably been one of the single most requested features this game has ever implemented. The addition of flying which no other MMO had ever really done helped WOW have the largest sub numbers of any MMO ever along with a great story.

    Sub started dropping when poor content was designed and the stories blizzard had to tell turned to garbage (cataclysm and forward)

    Then you look at all those nostalgic gamers that think WOW vanilla was somehow this amazing ground running adventure. Well guess what? It was not. Which leads us back to why flying and faster travel was one of the most requested features ever. Nostalgia in gaming is what is giving us WoD so blizzard can relive some past days of glory at the expense of gamers. Thats also not a good thing.

    Then you have gamers that spent real money on flying mounts through the store to only have blizzard hinder flying. I doubt very many of those buyers bought any mount just to run on the ground. Ground running probably never played a factor in buying those mounts but I bet their ability to fly did. Hindering that in current content after max level - Thats not best for anything or anyone.

    Then you add blizzards lacking in design and development (or just plain of they don't want to) in the game around a 7 year old feature. there have numberious ways in this extremely long thread about things blizzard could do to make and keep flying interesting without the quest bombing. All that from people that are not paid to create for blizzard but willing to offer up ideas to make things right with flying still in game.

    IS it best to limit flying? Hell no. WOW is basically the only MMO game with flying implemented as it is. You play to that strength in a declining game. You don't hinter or remove it cause your designers and developers have lost the will to be interesting or because the company wants to limit costs. You'll lose more than you ever gain.

    Of the many things wrong with WOW - Flying has never been one of them.

    It's best to keep flying. Flying at max level was a good compromise. 10 levels of running on the ground is plenty and as blizzard pushes no flying at max level, I'm forced to make sure I don't support them for their bad choices.
    Last edited by quras; 2014-04-09 at 01:17 PM.

  17. #5217
    Quote Originally Posted by quras View Post
    IS it best to limit flying? Hell no. WOW is basically the only MMO game with flying implemented as it is. You play to that strength in a declining game. You don't hinter or remove it cause your designers and developers have lost the will to be interesting or because the company wants to limit costs. You'll lose more than you ever gain.

    Of the many things wrong with WOW - Flying has never been one of them.
    Flying has always been limited one way or another for very good reasons. Also, other games don't implement flying not because they cannot or too lazy, it is because they have wow as an example before them. Flying isn't just all pro and no con and other game developers just haven't come up with a good way to balance the pro/con yet.

    We need to stop this conspiracy theory of blizzard wants to do less so they are not allowing flying. Blizzard is trying to make the game fun at max level and flying is hindering them from doing so. I don't know what Blizzard has planned will work or not right now without learning more.

    Basically, I would say don't assume WoD end game will be exactly the same as MoP end game. Maybe Blizzard has somehting planned that will make open world fun at end game.
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  18. #5218
    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    Flying has always been limited one way or another for very good reasons.
    It was limited mainly till max level. WHich was a good compromise. You could never use it in raids or dungeons or PVP so thats really a non-issue. Using it for 7 years at max level then having it removed cause blizzard can't be bothered to design content around it is indeed showing a bit of laziness.

    Also, other games don't implement flying not because they cannot or too lazy, it is because they have wow as an example before them. Flying isn't just all pro and no con and other game developers just haven't come up with a good way to balance the pro/con yet.
    New games are trying to implement flying. Flying is a pro all across the board for gamers. You can claim "con" for the PVP crowd and I at least get that but in PVE, if content is designed around flying at max level, it's all pro. There are no cons.

    Blizzard has 10 levels this time to set the story in motion before we can fly. Anything after max level is mostly driven by dungeons and raids where flying is not normally done or some daily area grind where flying should be implement anyway to lessen the crappy grind you got to do if you want the reputation.

    blizzard not designing those areas with flying in mind is just small minded design and development.

    We need to stop this conspiracy theory of blizzard wants to do less so they are not allowing flying.
    Given thats blizzard own words you can bet it's not some conspiracy. Why design larger and more expansive areas and places to go, if they can remove flying and create smaller areas for slower ground mounts.

    Blizzard is trying to make the game fun at max level and flying is hindering them from doing so.
    TBC and WoTLK says differently. Cataclysm and everything after it is pretty boring and bad in terms of the general WOW game but it's not because flying. It's terrible story coupled with poor content on multiple levels (be it rep grinds or dungeons and raids or just general lack of interesting content)

    Flying is just their scapegoat. The game has problems and flying isn't one of them.


    I don't know what Blizzard has planned will work or not right now without learning more.

    Basically, I would say don't assume WoD end game will be exactly the same as MoP end game. Maybe Blizzard has somehting planned that will make open world fun at end game.
    Im not assuming anything at this point. My opinion is based on what information blizzard has given.

    Based on that information, there is no WoD in my future after a 10+ year span. I will not support their current design as it currently stands. It's a poor move to remove things from the game under the guise that blizzard assumes it's a good thing. As if they haven't screwed things up for the past 2 expansions.

  19. #5219
    Quote Originally Posted by quras View Post
    It was limited mainly till max level. WHich was a good compromise. You could never use it in raids or dungeons or PVP so thats really a non-issue. Using it for 7 years at max level then having it removed cause blizzard can't be bothered to design content around it is indeed showing a bit of laziness.

    New games are trying to implement flying. Flying is a pro all across the board for gamers. You can claim "con" for the PVP crowd and I at least get that but in PVE, if content is designed around flying at max level, it's all pro. There are no cons.

    Blizzard has 10 levels this time to set the story in motion before we can fly. Anything after max level is mostly driven by dungeons and raids where flying is not normally done or some daily area grind where flying should be implement anyway to lessen the crappy grind you got to do if you want the reputation.

    blizzard not designing those areas with flying in mind is just small minded design and development.

    Given thats blizzard own words you can bet it's not some conspiracy. Why design larger and more expansive areas and places to go, if they can remove flying and create smaller areas for slower ground mounts.

    TBC and WoTLK says differently. Cataclysm and everything after it is pretty boring and bad in terms of the general WOW game but it's not because flying. It's terrible story coupled with poor content on multiple levels (be it rep grinds or dungeons and raids or just general lack of interesting content)

    Flying is just their scapegoat. The game has problems and flying isn't one of them.

    Im not assuming anything at this point. My opinion is based on what information blizzard has given.

    Based on that information, there is no WoD in my future after a 10+ year span. I will not support their current design as it currently stands. It's a poor move to remove things from the game under the guise that blizzard assumes it's a good thing. As if they haven't screwed things up for the past 2 expansions.
    I am not sure if you have followed wildstar forums but flying was indeed a huge debate on there. The world supports flying and game devs was going to do flying, but they decided not to at the end. It's just a more recent and more transparent example.

    I agree that if content is designed around flying then it is all pro. But that is the problem, whatever Blizzard has tried to design has had negative feedback. So Blizzard end up doing different quest areas that specifically disable flying (tot island, timeless). The shield operation daily area experiment showed that players will simply hover and wait for rare and swoop down to kill it regardless of danger in sky (just fly higher).

    I don't think it is an easy task to design around wow style flying unless there is aerial combat but aerial combat was also shot down by players (vashjir experiment). Basically anything that makes players unable to fly in a striaght line or afk midair has had negative feedback. Perhaps Blizzard will experiment with mobs that dismount players regardless of vertical distance (or summon birds to attack) and allow flying in a dailies area sometime and see how that is taken by players.
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  20. #5220
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Bond View Post
    All right then, but just because they make everything accessible on ground doesn't mean the world shouldn't be accessible by air once 6.1 hits. By then we'll have seen everything and experienced all the hard work they wanted us to experience.
    My concern is that the world will end up being too flat in order to enable you to access things they want you to access without flying. Maybe it won't be, but I like the idea that there's stuff on top of mountains that you can't access without flying. Rare items to find, max-level quests, rare mobs, whatever.

    EX: a lot of the old world (even after the revamp) and BC feels flat. Everything you need to do can be accessed by horse with only a couple exceptions for end-game content (raids, Netherwing dailies). Wrath feels the same in the pre-77 leveling zones, Borean Tundra, Howling Fjord, Zul'whatever, Dragonblight. After those zones, the Storm Peaks and Icecrown are very vertical zones, where a great deal of the zone is missed or simply inaccessible if you can't fly. Cata was sorta 50/50, the zones integrated with the old world, Uldum, Hyjal and Twilight Highlands, were also very flat, even though you could fly right away in the new old world, there was very little vertical design to them. Deepholm and the Naga lands (swimming is basically flying underwater) had a lot of *drumroll* depth to them, there was a lot of hidden caves, cliffs and other things that made the world feel very 3D.

    MoP seemed designed for flying from the first zone. There was a LOT of vertical pillars, cliffs, hills and it only increased once you got out of the starting areas (Jade Forest, Karasang Wilds, Valley of the Four Winds), it only became more 3D.

    So I think there's enough evidence to say that zones that are designed without flying have a history of being flatter in order to enable mount-based access. I find this to be more personally jarring to my experience in the game than not seeing other people out. World's are not flat, making them unrealistically so in order to allow ground-mounts to get everywhere just makes things dumb, IMO.

    So anyway, that's really my concern about a flying-less Draenor. Sure we might get flying once 6.1 comes, but that doesn't feel certain. So far the Dev posts on the subject have been "we'll see how it goes." not "yes you're getting flight in 6.1 for sure". So I'm not holding my breath.
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
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