1. #5261
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Flight was not in vanilla because they had a ton of testing and design pieces left around and they didn't take the time to clean up until Cata. They haven't done this since vanilla, so the problems they had adding flight to the old world would not be present in Draenor
    How do you know this?

  2. #5262
    Quote Originally Posted by Stellan View Post
    Of course you have to rework old content to enable flying in what was a ground only area. Geesh, this is so obvious.
    No, they change a code and enable flight.

    They don't have to design reasonable roads, passages, etc. for flying mounts. They do need to do so for ground mounts. Where a ground mount can efficiently travel, a flying mount can do the same. Meanwhile, where flying mounts can efficiently travel, ground mounts don't necessarily do the same. The only way from one half of Pandaria to the other without a flight path is through the Veiled Stair, the tunnel of Saurok leading to Kun'Lai. The only way to the Vale without flight is through Kun Lai, and only way to Townlong is on the edge of Kun'lai, while there is just one bridge into the Dread Wastes from Townlong. They don't care that post-leveling this is ridiculously annoying to traverse without flight because the world is designed for flight. But if it could be traversed easily on the ground, such as the vale having gates on 3 or 4 sides, flight would still function fine.

  3. #5263
    How is this still an active topic? I think i will start a thread about how Compuserve is way better then AOL.

  4. #5264
    They are not gonna take that chance. There will b flying.. They wont remove it, Because they know they will lose millions on top of millions of subs if they do so..

  5. #5265
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeschmoe View Post
    How is this still an active topic? I think i will start a thread about how Compuserve is way better then AOL.
    says the "anonymous" poster...

    ...you didn't have to click on it if you didn't have anything to add, mr. Doe.

  6. #5266
    Quote Originally Posted by Stellan View Post
    How do you know this?
    Devs dont want players to get into unfinished areas, right?

    Prior to Cata there was a lot of unfinished areas, plenty of players got to those places.

    Making it easier to get there, infact possible to get there without walljump/bugging, would be a problem. Blizzard has done a lot to stop DC macros, walljumping/bugging, etc. It would be counter intuitive for them to then open up the door to karazhan crypts, never mind the reason its closed in the first place. They dont want players getting to restricted, unfinished and developer areas. This is why we cant rocket boots and glider anymore. Adding flight would make it easy to get to such areas, and not even require exploiting. Therefore, before they enabled flight, they had to fix up such areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Callace View Post
    No doubt!

    But the question isn't CAN they.

    It's WILL they.
    I dont know.

    What Im saying is that pretending it is more than hitting a switch is ridiculous. If they choose to, they can. They dont need to redesign the whole world in order to do so, the practices that led to a redesign before flight was allowed in vanilla are a decade old and havent been used in a long time

  7. #5267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stellan View Post
    How do you know this?
    Adding flight is relatively easy. The sandbox users do it off-the-bat... The question is whether any of the content actually revolves around it. There don't appear to be any big gaps or facades in the alpha screenshots anywhere. But there aren't really any destinations far from the ground either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    I dont know.

    What Im saying is that pretending it is more than hitting a switch is ridiculous. If they choose to, they can. They dont need to redesign the whole world in order to do so, the practices that led to a redesign before flight was allowed in vanilla are a decade old and havent been used in a long time
    I agree with that. My concern is that once the switch is off and content consumption slows down (to their favor, obviously), they won't want to flip it back again, ever.

  8. #5268
    Quote Originally Posted by Callace View Post
    Adding flight is relatively easy. The sandbox users do it off-the-bat... The question is whether any of the content actually revolves around it. There don't appear to be any big gaps or facades in the alpha screenshots anywhere. But there aren't really any destinations far from the ground either.

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    I agree with that. My concern is that once the switch is off and content consumption slows down (to their favor, obviously), they won't want to flip it back again, ever.
    They made it clear they dont want flight in current content, and they think they could make a game without flight. At the same time, they acknowledge that a lot of players like it, and its strong. Having it be in past content would be a solid compromise rather than keeping it gone forever, and offer a form of leveling catchup too.

    Also, ground mounts will not noticeably slow content consumption. if they wanted to do that they would cut LFR/LFG and catchup mechanics. They stated they will make sure flight paths are better planned to be used for cutting down on raw travel time.. Ground mounts change the way we consume content

  9. #5269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    They made it clear they dont want flight in current content
    I have absolutely no qualms with this. People need to slow down at first.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    they think they could make a game without flight
    I have a huge problem with this: The replay can't be as slow as the first-play for me. That's too tedious for me. A bridge too far.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Also, ground mounts will not noticeably slow content consumption.
    is where I disagree with you. In 5.0, 5.1, I could absolutely blaze through the world stuff, and it was fun like that because I had already "been there, done that". There is a reason they placed many of the daily q's underground...It was so players couldn't blast through content in 5 minutes flat. No-flight would have the same effect: q's on IoT took noticeably longer (admittedly, TI didn't have any). The most common npc phrase out in the world was "slow down". They have interviewed at length about how much of a problem the speed of world content consumption is (not instances, naturally)! That is their motivation for keeping the switch turned off. If I worked there, I would want to convince players to keep it off too!
    Last edited by Callace; 2014-04-10 at 08:18 PM. Reason: typo

  10. #5270
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinryu View Post
    Yeah sorry, i come back ever 15-20 pages and try and make sure people understand that blizzard intends to add flight back in, so many people don't read the whole forum or the OP and just put their 2 cents in given the false info, i just try to keep people informed on the "truth of the matter"
    Thats great news. Can you please source your information. I thought the last official information we had was flying is out in 6.0 and we will wait and see.

    I did not know blizzard officially announced flying is back like you stated. Can you please link the source?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superman-BladesEdge View Post
    Exactly. If they were not flight capable, there would be no use of Gliders in this zone. Like Azeroth before the Cataclysm, the skies would be for FPs only. But, I am guessing they are using the same skybox code and software to make Draenor just as they used in Cata and MoP. Which means it is literally flipping a switch to allow or disallow it. The quest is that switch. Complete the quest in 6.1 and bam, flying unlocks.

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    Wonder why that is? Hmmm.... (giggles) You get it, I get it... explaining it to others who assume things is gonna be tough.
    Great news, you have a source that information other than your ass?

    Didn't Vanilla have flight paths?

    Flying is gone, suck it up cupcake.

    The *Official* update is flying is gone in 6.0 and we will wait and see.

    anything new other than that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Callace View Post
    I have absolutely no qualms with this. People need to slow down at first.

    I have a huge problem with this: The replay can't be as slow as the first-play for me. That's too tedious for me. A bridge too far.

    is where I disagree with you. In 5.0, 5.1, I could absolutely blaze through the world stuff, and it was fun like that because I had already "been there, done that". There is a reason they placed many of the daily q's underground...It was so players couldn't blast through content in 5 minutes flat. No-flight would have the same effect: q's on IoT took noticeably longer (admittedly, TI didn't have any). The most common npc phrase out in the world was "slow down". They have interviewed at length about how much of a problem the speed of world content consumption is (not instances, naturally)! That is their motivation for keeping the switch turned off. If I worked there, I would want to convince players to keep it off too!
    If people consume your content too quickly create more content. You get $50 for the expansion and $15 a month. They have no excuse, none, in my opinion. There was a day when $15 was a good deal, that day is gone.

  11. #5271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magemaer View Post
    People still crying about this? Oh boy.
    I see people discussing a topic. Nice passive aggressive insult.

  12. #5272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barkloud View Post
    If people consume your content too quickly create more content. You get $50 for the expansion and $15 a month. They have no excuse, none, in my opinion. There was a day when $15 was a good deal, that day is gone.
    They really need two entire teams: one for new stuff, and one for updating everything else. They've hinted at taking things in this direction, but I haven't seen any signs of it yet.
    Last edited by Callace; 2014-04-10 at 09:08 PM.

  13. #5273
    Quote Originally Posted by Barkloud View Post
    Thats great news. Can you please source your information. I thought the last official information we had was flying is out in 6.0 and we will wait and see.

    I did not know blizzard officially announced flying is back like you stated. Can you please link the source?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Great news, you have a source that information other than your ass?

    Didn't Vanilla have flight paths?

    Flying is gone, suck it up cupcake.

    The *Official* update is flying is gone in 6.0 and we will wait and see.

    anything new other than that?

    - - - Updated - - -



    If people consume your content too quickly create more content. You get $50 for the expansion and $15 a month. They have no excuse, none, in my opinion. There was a day when $15 was a good deal, that day is gone.
    There hasn't been any update on that yet. It's still as it should have always been. Flying gone at First and wait and see how Players react.

  14. #5274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barkloud View Post
    Great news, you have a source that information other than your ass?

    Didn't Vanilla have flight paths?

    Flying is gone, suck it up cupcake.

    The *Official* update is flying is gone in 6.0 and we will wait and see.

    anything new other than that?
    Ouch, sounds like someone woke up on the wrong side of the forum.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/10571977123#6

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    There's a lot of discussion about flying/not-flying and I'd like to try to sum things up and maybe realign the discussion a bit. Some of the other threads are near-cap, some have really gone down tangents, so I'm just picking this one to throw a reply into. Apologies to the other threads.

    We intend to disallow flying while leveling from 90 to 100, and have flying become available again in the first major patch for Warlords of Draenor. No flying while leveling has been the case during Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, and Mists of Pandaria. We allowed flying during Cataclysm because as those zones were mixed-in with the 1-60 world it just would have been really jarring to dismount you as you fly into Hyjal, etc. but we would have disallowed it for Catalcysm zones as well if there was a reasonable solution there.

    Flying trivializes combat. A lot of people like to say we're trying to force world PvP, or that we just really want people to look at the pretty trees we made, but those really aren't the reasons that drive this same decision we've made every expansion. Flying allows you to escape or enter combat at-will. There's a reason why flying isn't allowed in dungeons and raids, or battlegrounds and arenas, and that's because it would trivialize the core mechanic of the game in those areas - combat. For much the same reason it trivializes how content is approached in the outdoor world based on the simple fact that you can lift off and set down wherever you like.

    So that's the main reason. But sure there are a lot of other problems it can cause for content design such as zones having to get a lot bigger because flying mounts can travel so quickly (and thus making ground travel in them take much longer), it reduces the impact of elevation within zones, it completely removes the ability for us to pace or present content in any structured way, and in general removes our ability to determine how and when players approach a situation, see a vista or location, or charge into/out-of a combat situation. It just greatly reduces any gameplay we want to create by allowing infinite choice in how content is approached to best suit a player's intention to (usually) avoid that content.

    I totally sympathize with people's desire to do that, they want to be efficient and have it be their choice, but we have to balance our intent to create a game against creating a sandbox where anything goes. There's a happy medium there somewhere, but flying mounts in most cases just do too much to undermine too many of our core intentions with the game world, the basis of the game: combat, or guiding players through a game experience, and for those reasons we have continually chosen (when we could) to disallow flying mounts in the 'current' outdoor content. In the past that's meant only while leveling, but in our experiences with the Isle of Thunder and Timeless Isle we feel like we can extend that for a bit longer in the new content, and have it be kind of a big deal again once you're able to earn flying in the first big content patch, and in the meantime putting focus on flight paths as well as having some more interesting travel options for players to use.
    I have info directly from BattleNet supporting my claim. Yourself, and the others seem to think social media is a reliable source. If it is not on BattleNet it is not " *Official* " as you put it. Not sure how much more clear to make that.

  15. #5275
    Quote Originally Posted by Callace View Post
    I have absolutely no qualms with this. People need to slow down at first.

    I have a huge problem with this: The replay can't be as slow as the first-play for me. That's too tedious for me. A bridge too far.

    is where I disagree with you. In 5.0, 5.1, I could absolutely blaze through the world stuff, and it was fun like that because I had already "been there, done that". There is a reason they placed many of the daily q's underground...It was so players couldn't blast through content in 5 minutes flat. No-flight would have the same effect: q's on IoT took noticeably longer (admittedly, TI didn't have any). The most common npc phrase out in the world was "slow down". They have interviewed at length about how much of a problem the speed of world content consumption is (not instances, naturally)! That is their motivation for keeping the switch turned off. If I worked there, I would want to convince players to keep it off too!
    Flying did not speed up you killing the quest enemies, it did not speed up you looting 15 items. What it sped up was travel time, whether between mobs or just from quest giver to enemies. Changing that to suit ground based travel would not cause problems. The caves in the dailies were very much crammed with enemies, it didnt take long to get the quests and go fight them.

    The issue is that you see 1 time through as seeing everything, and you simply dont. I only have leveled 4 characters to 90, and it wasnt till my 4th level 90 that I saw parts of Townlong while leveling, not until the 3rd that I actually did the Zandalari quests in Kun Lai, and only on my first did I do a chunk of Kun Lai with a bunch of mogu banshees. You dont see everything the first time you level, nor do you notice everything the first time you go through a zone. Even if you leveled through the Zandalari area of Kun-Lai, you didnt necessarily see the flying ghost turtle there. The only time you would pass that area post-90 would be flying to Isle of Giants, and you would most likely not see it then too. The only reason i noticed it ever was because I was farming the dismounting shell and he was nearby. You dont see everything the first time, nor do you see everything the second, third or fourth time. I did all of Townlong and only because of a friend did I meet Hugalon the Heart Watcher. There is never a set point that you have seen everything there is to see, and skipping over it would be fine. Blizzard puts in some convenience, like flight paths, and mounts, to help cut down on raw travel time, but not even come a new expansion can people claim they have seen everything in Pandaria, I know I haven't. Having flight enabled post-expansion is one thing, players will only be doing one playthrough anyway, but when people are traveling through the continent multiple times during an expansion, they should be on the ground to take in each little bit and piece they havent seen.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Superman-BladesEdge View Post
    Ouch, sounds like someone woke up on the wrong side of the forum.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/10571977123#6

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    There's a lot of discussion about flying/not-flying and I'd like to try to sum things up and maybe realign the discussion a bit. Some of the other threads are near-cap, some have really gone down tangents, so I'm just picking this one to throw a reply into. Apologies to the other threads.

    We intend to disallow flying while leveling from 90 to 100, and have flying become available again in the first major patch for Warlords of Draenor. No flying while leveling has been the case during Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, and Mists of Pandaria. We allowed flying during Cataclysm because as those zones were mixed-in with the 1-60 world it just would have been really jarring to dismount you as you fly into Hyjal, etc. but we would have disallowed it for Catalcysm zones as well if there was a reasonable solution there.

    Flying trivializes combat. A lot of people like to say we're trying to force world PvP, or that we just really want people to look at the pretty trees we made, but those really aren't the reasons that drive this same decision we've made every expansion. Flying allows you to escape or enter combat at-will. There's a reason why flying isn't allowed in dungeons and raids, or battlegrounds and arenas, and that's because it would trivialize the core mechanic of the game in those areas - combat. For much the same reason it trivializes how content is approached in the outdoor world based on the simple fact that you can lift off and set down wherever you like.

    So that's the main reason. But sure there are a lot of other problems it can cause for content design such as zones having to get a lot bigger because flying mounts can travel so quickly (and thus making ground travel in them take much longer), it reduces the impact of elevation within zones, it completely removes the ability for us to pace or present content in any structured way, and in general removes our ability to determine how and when players approach a situation, see a vista or location, or charge into/out-of a combat situation. It just greatly reduces any gameplay we want to create by allowing infinite choice in how content is approached to best suit a player's intention to (usually) avoid that content.

    I totally sympathize with people's desire to do that, they want to be efficient and have it be their choice, but we have to balance our intent to create a game against creating a sandbox where anything goes. There's a happy medium there somewhere, but flying mounts in most cases just do too much to undermine too many of our core intentions with the game world, the basis of the game: combat, or guiding players through a game experience, and for those reasons we have continually chosen (when we could) to disallow flying mounts in the 'current' outdoor content. In the past that's meant only while leveling, but in our experiences with the Isle of Thunder and Timeless Isle we feel like we can extend that for a bit longer in the new content, and have it be kind of a big deal again once you're able to earn flying in the first big content patch, and in the meantime putting focus on flight paths as well as having some more interesting travel options for players to use.
    I have info directly from BattleNet supporting my claim. Yourself, and the others seem to think social media is a reliable source. If it is not on BattleNet it is not " *Official* " as you put it. Not sure how much more clear to make that.
    You do realize that this is from Blizzcon times, right? A dev, on video, gave a different statement, not confirming it at a major patch for sure, but that they will "wait and see"

  16. #5276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    [What] Flying ... sped up was travel time, whether between mobs or just from quest giver to enemies.
    Well yeah. That was my point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Changing that to suit ground based travel would not cause problems.
    Changing...what? Cranking the ground speed a couple hundred extra percent? Because I'd be okay with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    The issue is that you see 1 time through as seeing everything, and you simply dont. I only have leveled 4 characters to 90, and it wasnt till my 4th level 90 that I saw parts of Townlong while leveling, not until the 3rd that I actually did the Zandalari quests in Kun Lai, and only on my first did I do a chunk of Kun Lai with a bunch of mogu banshees. You dont see everything the first time you level, nor do you notice everything the first time you go through a zone. Even if you leveled through the Zandalari area of Kun-Lai, you didnt necessarily see the flying ghost turtle there. The only time you would pass that area post-90 would be flying to Isle of Giants, and you would most likely not see it then too. The only reason i noticed it ever was because I was farming the dismounting shell and he was nearby. You dont see everything the first time, nor do you see everything the second, third or fourth time. I did all of Townlong and only because of a friend did I meet Hugalon the Heart Watcher. There is never a set point that you have seen everything there is to see, and skipping over it would be fine. Blizzard puts in some convenience, like flight paths, and mounts, to help cut down on raw travel time, but not even come a new expansion can people claim they have seen everything in Pandaria, I know I haven't. Having flight enabled post-expansion is one thing, players will only be doing one playthrough anyway, but when people are traveling through the continent multiple times during an expansion, they should be on the ground to take in each little bit and piece they havent seen."
    I had no problem exploring 98% of the ground stuff because the XP hike was so very long. Your description of your own experience might be your idea of fun. But it's my idea of obsessive compulsion. I think that's ultimately where we won't agree.

  17. #5277
    Quote Originally Posted by Callace View Post
    Well yeah. That was my point.

    Changing...what? Cranking the ground speed a couple hundred extra percent? Because I'd be okay with that.


    I had no problem exploring 98% of the ground stuff because the XP hike was so very long. Your description of your own experience might be your idea of fun. But it's my idea of obsessive compulsion. I think that's ultimately where we won't agree.
    Changing the distance between a quest giver and the quest target, and the distance between mobs, so that you dont take a long time. Flying sped it up in MoP because it was designed for you to be flying while doing dailies. All they need to do is put mobs closer together, maybe with reduced agro radius as well, and you wont be slowed down. You are presuming that it will be like using ground mounts in pandaria, and the fact of the matter is that pandaria was designed to be played with flying at max level.

    Also, I will not believe that you covered most of the game just leveling. Even if you did nearly all the quests, not everything is tied to a quest. you might not care about the flying ghost turtle in Kun'Lai, but behavior like that shouldnt be encouraged over taking notice of things like that.

  18. #5278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Changing the distance between a quest giver and the quest target, and the distance between mobs, so that you dont take a long time. Flying sped it up in MoP because it was designed for you to be flying while doing dailies. All they need to do is put mobs closer together, maybe with reduced agro radius as well, and you wont be slowed down. You are presuming that it will be like using ground mounts in pandaria, and the fact of the matter is that pandaria was designed to be played with flying at max level.
    Now we're back to what they "can" do rather than what they "will" do. There are a lot of changes like this I have no confidence in them making.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Also, I will not believe that you covered most of the game just leveling. Even if you did nearly all the quests, not everything is tied to a quest. you might not care about the flying ghost turtle in Kun'Lai, but behavior like that shouldnt be encouraged over taking notice of things like that.
    Explore? Yes. Complete? Of course not. I didn't max out the 'chieves either. But that isn't my idea of fun either.

  19. #5279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    You do realize that this is from Blizzcon times, right? A dev, on video, gave a different statement, not confirming it at a major patch for sure, but that they will "wait and see"
    I realize that unless it is on BattleNet or in the patch notes it is not a reliable source. Only fools put stock in the ramblings of social media.

  20. #5280
    Quote Originally Posted by Superman-BladesEdge View Post
    I realize that unless it is on BattleNet or in the patch notes it is not a reliable source. Only fools put stock in the ramblings of social media.
    It wasn't on social media, it was on a private interview, and holds as much credibility as any statements made at Blizzcon.

    Just because they haven't type it on battle.net doesn't mean it in planned. When te developers state that they will be doing something, that is their intent. Don't forget the hole no glight thing that prompted the respond you referenced was from an interview with Ghostcrawler and not something posted on te main site.

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