Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Sjoa]

They've been playing it safe for a long time. Call me a pessimist, but I think you overestimate them.

It must suck to not being able to see anything positive about Draenor. Do you feel like this in your personal life as well? The lack of seeing the positives, rather than negatives? None of my business of course, but if it's not a touchy subject we're good.

[Callace]

It must suck to not being able to see anything positive about Draenor. Do you feel like this in your personal life as well? The lack of seeing the positives, rather than negatives? None of my business of course, but if it's not a touchy subject we're good.

The art team does an amazing job, I love the sights and sounds. But the game design on the other hand is probably driven by accountants a lot more than they would ever admit.

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I would hope they go with the one that makes the most sense, regardless of who came up with it.

They already did break that trajectory though. Look at ToT isle and TI, where there is no flying and mobs everywhere. I have yet to see a bluepost that says those isles lost subs. And it is implied that this is the direction they are taking with WoD, so all this doomsaying about losing 15-25% of the player base in the first couple of months solely because of flying just doesn't make rational sense.

Molten Front didn't have flying either, so keep in mind that almost every world hub that was added in patches has been flightless since Cata. Hardly a new concept.

[Constraint]

If people are forced to do a bunch of crap (read: bowling for mobs ad nauseum) on the way to goals, they will stop playing. If you think forcing people to play something they don't want to is a good idea, I can only imagine you are already guilty of doing just that.

Interesting and, in my opinion, naive leaps of judgement. How is riding through the world "a bunch of crap"? How is having to actually take part in the goings-on of the world "a bunch of crap"?

This "forcing people to do things" argument is a little ridiculous and old too. We're "forced" to kill raid bosses to get raid-quality loot. What a drag. We're "forced" to click nodes to mine herbs, ore and skin. What a nuisance. We're "forced" to complete quests in order to level.

That's how games like this WORK. It's fundamental. Just because you're used to a certain way doesn't mean it's the only viable and successful way. Jeez.

[Destruktion]

Molten Front didn't have flying either, so keep in mind that almost every world hub that was added in patches has been flightless since Cata. Hardly a new concept.

I get that having an entire continent with no fly zones is something not tried since vanilla, but it's the same principle as world hubs in content patches so what are you making a ruckus about?

[Callace]

Interesting and, in my opinion, naive leaps of judgement. How is riding through the world "a bunch of crap"? How is having to actually take part in the goings-on of the world "a bunch of crap"?

This "forcing people to do things" argument is a little ridiculous and old too. We're "forced" to kill raid bosses to get raid-quality loot. What a drag. We're "forced" to click nodes to mine herbs, ore and skin. What a nuisance. We're "forced" to complete quests in order to level.

That's how games like this WORK. It's fundamental. Just because you're used to a certain way doesn't mean it's the only viable and successful way. Jeez.

Romanticize it all you want. Killing lots of mobs that offer no real reward just to arrive at the ones you are focusing on is the second most boring aspect of the game behind long queue times.

[urasim]

Your 4.70 posts a day on average since december 2010 on an mmosite begs to differ, friend. Anways, gonna leave it with that..

I don't know if you're not able to see it or what is wrong with you but, Blizzard aims to trigger me and the 5 million they lost since the peak. Not the "15-25% of player base that loses thier flying abilities.

There is no selling point in the next expansion that hasn't already been in the game or in another game. What do you think Blizzard is doing that will magically pull in more subscribers than it has ever had? You're delusional if you think that removal of a key feature to the game will draw more people than it will lose. You don't know why people quit, and you don't know why people join. So, you can't argue for anyone but yourself, and anecdotal evidence is the worse kind.

[Constraint]

Romanticize it all you want. Killing lots mobs that offer no real reward just to arrive at the ones you are focusing on is the second most boring aspect of the game behind long queue times.

Or, you could just ride to where you want to go, kill the 1-2 mobs that didn't reset, then go about your business. That's what I'll do anyway. Not sure about you.

[Callace]

I get that having an entire continent with no fly zones is something not tried since vanilla, but it's the same principle as world hubs in content patches so what are you making a ruckus about?

How much did people like those patched hubs? All I have seen is people rush to get them out of the way. I'm not convinced that will work when it replaces the entirety of current content. The travel time won't scale well. It will add up very quickly.

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Or, you could just ride to where you want to go, kill the 1-2 mobs that didn't reset, then go about your business. That's what I'll do anyway. Not sure about you.

Well sure, if you play a vampire and the mobs can't see you. But not everyone is so lucky. Even lvl 1 lowbies can stun you if you ride through enough.

[Constraint]

Well sure, if you play a vampire and the mobs can't see you. But not everyone is so lucky.

Heh, it wasn't that much of a problem in Vanilla. Just had to learn how to run through areas without getting dazed. Obviously this is entirely based on how you or I personally feel about it, but I actually do enjoy having to make decisions and stuff based on what's in front of me, not just how many trees to avoid as I fly safely above the entire content provided.

[Dellis0991]

Good I hope they do make us ride ground mounts, players need to see the glory and horror that is adventuring. They need to discover the world instead of swooping down on sh!t and then flying away.

[Sunseeker]

Or, you could just ride to where you want to go, kill the 1-2 mobs that didn't reset, then go about your business. That's what I'll do anyway. Not sure about you.

So, with flying mounts we skip the bullshit they put in our way.

With ground mounts we skip 99% of the bullshit they put in our way.

How have things improved?

[Demeia]

I still contend that having to actually think and using CC in heroics likely didn't lead to half of the people that quit when Cata hit and since then.

It was the CC plus the change in healing plus the difficulty that required dedicated players who were prepared to wipe and recover for blue gear that got people down. I would spend 2-3 hours in a single instance. It felt like raiding and I quickly burned out.

However, it's usually a combination of things that make people quit. My 25-man raid disappeared so there seemed little reason to stick around given how unpleasant getting the blue gear was.

That will be the result of no-flying. If people despise some other aspect of the game--the change to healing or the new PvP or their class having so many abilities pruned--it will lead to many players quitting.

[Mormolyce]

You forget that the best increase was in vanilla too. More than 700% in 2 years (1 M to 8M).
Even TBC or Wrath only increased 2M (and was really good augment!!!). And I remember that Cata/ MoP had flying mounts too.

Well it did start from zero.

The whole argument is silly though, WoW's subs correlate to the game's age and little else. Even the release of new expansions has had only a small effect on the overall curve.

[Perkunas]

I really liked the Cata Hs. I think it had more to do with the lack of endgame and story.

The big bad boss that we all learned to hate in Warcraft 3 and TFT finally dies ending the epic story that spanned almost 8 years and 2 entirely different genres, classes are drastically changed to the point where some are barely recognized, raid formats are combined and hundreds if not thousands of 25-man guilds shattered because of it. Yeah, I think blaming hard heroics and tier 11 is a fucking cop out on an epic scale.

[Mormolyce]

The art team does an amazing job, I love the sights and sounds. But the game design on the other hand is probably driven by accountants a lot more than they would ever admit.

If it was driven by accountants they would never suspend flying. Look at how much QQ there's been, and they derive zero profit from it.

If anything this only proves that their design goals are driven by what they believe is best for the game. Whether you personally like it or not.

[Dellis0991]

So, with flying mounts we skip the bullshit they put in our way.

With ground mounts we skip 99% of the bullshit they put in our way.

How have things improved?

Enough damage will demount you and make you fight or die.... so maybe you get away maybe you won't....that's how it used to be.

[Sunseeker]

Enough damage will demount you and make you fight or die.... so maybe you get away maybe you won't....that's how it used to be.

Over EIGHT YEARS AGO.

You know what else was going on 8 years ago? The Sims.

[Mormolyce]

The big bad boss that we all learned to hate in Warcraft 3 and TFT finally dies ending the epic story that spanned almost 8 years and 2 entirely different genres, classes are drastically changed to the point where some are barely recognized, raid formats are combined and hundreds if not thousands of 25-man guilds shattered because of it. Yeah, I think blaming hard heroics and tier 11 is a fucking cop out on an epic scale.

Most of those 25m guilds were just as happy to transfer to 10m (the design in Wrath forced people into 25m whether they liked it or not, in Cata you could choose the one you actually wanted) and the classes were no more different than they are every expansion.

Sure a big story arc came to a close at the end of Wrath, that's fair enough. I think you're vastly overstating the impact of the other things though.

[Dellis0991]

Over EIGHT YEARS AGO.

You know what else was going on 8 years ago? The Sims.

That's is what they are trying to bring back to WoW...the fear of the unknown, you know like that first time you rode through Duskwood and ran face first into Stitches on the road.

[Perkunas]

Most of those 25m guilds were just as happy to transfer to 10m (the design in Wrath forced people into 25m whether they liked it or not, in Cata you could choose the one you actually wanted) and the classes were no more different than they are every expansion.

Sure a big story arc came to a close at the end of Wrath, that's fair enough. I think you're vastly overstating the impact of the other things though.

I quit during Cata because of the 10/25 man bullshit. I watched tons of guilds fold over it. Many tried the "take the best and carry on" and those all eventually folded. This is why I think Mythic is probably one of the best decisions Blizzard has made in the past 5 years.