Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Nurvus]

So let that fun to rogues only. Let's all roll a rogue

Except rogues must be on the ground and don't move at 451% speed.

And don't forget that:
1 - The Power vs Survivability ratio while leveling is broken, such that classes with strong openers have an overwhelming burst.
2 - Burst vs lowbies is off the charts because even at level 89 your resillience is 40% instead of 77%.
3 - At this point in MoP you see great disparity in gear, since a Warforged T16 will have at least 3x the HP and 5x the DPS of a fresh Lv90.
Since gankers rarely pick a "fair fight", it's natural that a ganking rogue will destroy you before you can type "cheese".

If you consider the fact that in WoD your health will be much higher comparing to your damage, then being ganked by a rogue won't be as overwhelming.

[khalltusk]

Hunters can't camouflage and mount before they are stunned and fucked in the ass by the gankee's friends. The rogue will just vanish and laugh at the friends. As a rogue you can fuck someone for hours and never die.

Apart from that, the rogue can sap, so he never has to even go around mobs, like a camo hunter. They can just go in straight line to the fortress boss from the retard Bashiok tales. Of course they can make mobs to detect stealth, which would be also lame as shit, because they force the player to do as they want

DKs and other tanks just run to the boss mob and kill it along with the pain train that followed in behind in one glorious AOE ball of death.

Won't change anything for me in regards to how I quest at least.

[Nayaga]

The irony, is that immersion is consumed BECAUSE you start flying.

No it's not. Immersion is complete once I've consumed all the content (level cap and zones cleared). TI, once I saw it a couple of times and got gear for my alts, I never returned. Flying or not, does not make any difference.

- - - Updated - - -

First, the real problem is you don't want to be in that zone anymore.
The real solution should be making you want to be there - not giving you tools to skip content.

Blizzard has never been able to make we want to go to completed zones after clearing it other than achievements, pet battles, archaeology, ore, herbs, skinning, exploring, pet collecting, dailies. fishing and so on.

TI was max level content that I think is horrible, if it was not a loot pinata, I would never have gone there.

[Nurvus]

I think that Alex misses the point that efficiency != choice

So he can take that an apply it to his frame of reference.

Where in your completely honest and non-hypocritical argument is there a choice in using a Ground Mount over Flying Mount?

Oh, and I'm talking about real choices.
1 way to do it right and 3 ways to do it wrong != choice

- - - Updated - - -

No it's not. Immersion is complete once I've consumed all the content (level cap and zones cleared). TI, once I saw it a couple of times and got gear from my alts, I never return. Flying or not, does not make any difference.

Not it's not. Immersion is the feeling of being inside the fantasy the game tries to convey.
The fantasy doesn't magically disappear because you hit max level.
But as SOON as you reach max level you want to fly. You expect it.
It has NOTHING to do with "clearing" a zone, because you and I know you reach max level WAY before you "clear" zones.

And that's where your argument fails.

You go back to an area at cap & on your flying mount because you did NOT clear it.
You don't just skip low level content with your flying mount - you skip max level content as well.

Blizzard needs to make content meaningful throughout the whole game.
Content that doesn't feel like a "chore".
Content that challenges and rewards you properly, so that it's not boring.
So that you don't just feel like "getting it over with", as if you're suffering.

[khalltusk]

Where in your completely honest and non-hypocritical argument is there a choice in using a Ground Mount over Flying Mount?

Oh, and I'm talking about real choices.
1 way to do it right and 3 ways to do it wrong != choice

- - - Updated - - -



And that's where your argument fails.

You go back to an area at cap & on your flying mount because you did NOT clear it.
You don't just skip low level content with your flying mount - you skip max level content as well.

The real problems are:
- there is content you just don't care about.
- you feel like most content is a waste of time so you want to get done with it asap

The feeling of "chore" some of the content gives us is precicely what Blizzard needs to fix.

It is something they will never fix as theres simply too many players who like or dislike different things. Those of us who skip that content now will skip that content in wod via flight paths. So its no major change in the fact players will skip content. Personally they could have just slowed flight speed down to a more reasonable rate compared to ground mounts. You will never really bring the two to a comparable level as one flies which instantly has an advantage over the other.

[Nayaga]

And that's where your argument fails.

You go back to an area at cap & on your flying mount because you did NOT clear it.
You don't just skip low level content with your flying mount - you skip max level content as well.

Wrong again. Being able to kill a rare the fourth or fifth time does not constitute content not cleared. Going back to farm herb/ore multiple times also doesn't constitute content not cleared.

There is content that some people choose to skip. Like some like pet battles I don't. We consume the content we have fun with, then we are done.

The real problems are:
- there is content you just don't care about.
- you feel like most content is a waste of time so you want to get done with it asap

The feeling of "chore" some of the content gives us is precicely what Blizzard needs to fix.

Impossible, Blizzard can never make all content liked by everyone. If you force people to participate in content they don't like, it will feel like a chore.

- - - Updated - - -

It is something they will never fix as theres simply too many players who like or dislike different things. Those of us who skip that content now will skip that content in wod via flight paths. So its no major change in the fact players will skip content. Personally they could have just slowed flight speed down to a more reasonable rate compared to ground mounts. You will never really bring the two to a comparable level as one flies which instantly has an advantage over the other.

You beet me too it

[gamingmuscle]

You go back to an area at cap & on your flying mount because you did NOT clear it.
You don't just skip low level content with your flying mount - you skip max level content as well.

You cannot skip content by doing it in any form. Avoiding a few mobs because flying/leashing/stealth/Invis/waiting for another Player to kill it is not skipping the content. Those non required NPCs are nothing more than an obstacle. Some you go around, some you go through. Both approaches is consuming the content. It is maybe consuming it in a fashion blizzard does not want us to.

You skip content by just not doing it. Flying has nothing to do with that. And whether we do it is up to the merits of the content.

[Namidae]

i'm skeptical on it to say the least. Will you be as efficient with out flying? I very very much doubt it the mounts or just flat out faster.

As far as i understand, what he says is : they can design a non-flying zone to be as efficient as the currents flying zones.
If they design the Wod zones with much more density of plants and nodes than the current Mop zones, people will be as efficient in Wod than they are currently in Mop.

[Nayaga]

You skip content by just not doing it. Flying has nothing to do with that. And whether we do it is up to the merits of the content.

Good point, hearthing, flight taxis, ports and summons all skip "content" by not doing it.

[Voidstrider]

I'm okay with this. As convenient as it is, flying is just too much power over movement. If they moved to a model of no flying until expac is done, I would be cool with it. People would whine and bitch and moan, but then they would eventually get used to it.

[Nurvus]

It is something they will never fix as theres simply too many players who like or dislike different things. Those of us who skip that content now will skip that content in wod via flight paths. So its no major change in the fact players will skip content. Personally they could have just slowed flight speed down to a more reasonable rate compared to ground mounts. You will never really bring the two to a comparable level as one flies which instantly has an advantage over the other.

I was forgetting about flight paths.

Let's delve on that a little bit.
Flight Paths let you travel from point A to point B.
I don't consider that skipping content - not in the sense I do when I mention Flying Mounts.

Flying mounts letting you travel from point A to point B is NOT a problem.
Flying mounts letting you explore is NOT a problem.

Flying Mounts letting you get the reward without overcoming the challenge IS a problem. Flight Paths can't do this.
Flying Mounts completely defeating the idea of fairplay by letting you cherry-pick every opponent IS a problem. Flight Paths can't do this.
Flying Mounts making Ground Mounts pointless IS a problem. Flight Paths don't do this either.

But I disagree when you say that Flying Travel will never be balanced with Ground Travel.

So what exactly are the problematic characteristics of flying? How to change them?

• Ground Mounts should be better - at least - for short distances. For that to happen, they would need:
  
  • An acceleration mechanic - represented by a gauge or stacks (or both):
    Ground Mounts would have the fastest acceleration. Mounts would have a higher max speed than they have now to compensate.
    
    Fastest Flying (changed to +350%) = 100-135-170-205-240-275-310-345-380-415-450%
    Fastest Ground (changed to +150%) = 100-175-250%
    Assuming you can get 1 stack per second, this means Flying Mounts would take 5 seconds to reach a speed higher than what Ground Mounts can reach in 2 seconds.
  • A deceleration mechanic:
    You shouldn't be able to just unmount at full speed to gank or grab a chest. You must first decelerate to a reasonable speed.
    I'd say being able to lose 2 stacks of speed per second (twice as fast as acceleration) would be a fair deceleration rate.
• You shouldn't be able to fly at max speed through everything.
  Certain areas should work as a wall to flying or restrict flight speed.
  Hitting a tree, wall or ground should force you to 0 speed and hurt you based on the amount of speed you have above that (and potentially killing you).
  
  Wanna go afk while flying? Use a flight path.
  Hitting a branch or entering treetops would hurt you based on the amount of speed above X (and potentially killing you), and lower your speed by Y.
• Countering mounts, specially flying mounts' ability to trivialize content.
  
  • While mounted you should take X% increased damage per stack of acceleration.
  • Getting hit should remove 1 stack of acceleration.
  • Getting hit under certain circumstances would dismount you - this would require you to be at 0 acceleration; or below X% Health (or both)
  • Mobs should have better aerial awareness, and decent abilities to use against aerial targets. (I'm not talking about cheesy dismounts)
  This means you're trying to run away or get closer, only to be pre-empted by the enemies.

With just the 4 ideas above, you'd already have fairly balanced mount mechanics.

You wouldn't just blindly go through trees or hit walls like it's nobody's business.
Flying would be great (even better than now) for traveling large distances and crossing entire zones.
But you wouldn't land like a lightning bolt anymore.

[gamingmuscle]

Flying Mounts letting you get the reward without overcoming the challenge IS a problem. Flight Paths can't do this.

Technically that is overcoming the challenge. It's funny....they don't want to prevent you from avoiding the content in all the ways available...just one =P

Flying Mounts completely defeating the idea of fairplay by letting you cherry-pick every opponent IS a problem.

World PVP and fair play? Really? People will cherry pick targets no matter the mode of transportation. This is not a problem with flight.

Flying Mounts making Ground Mounts pointless IS a problem.

They are not pointless...but yes people more often will choose flying because it is simply that much faster.

The problem with flight is, it is safe. There is virtually no risk to it now that every dismount mechanic I know of has been removed. (Use to love typhooning people of their mounts =P)
The problem with ground mounts is there are very few open world situations were this is better than flying.

Your acceleration mechanic could work. Take 3-5 seconds to hit top speed or something.

[Nurvus]

World PVP and fair play? Really? People will cherry pick targets no matter the mode of transportation. This is not a problem with flight.

World PvP being unfair has to do with a few problems, including (but not limited to):
1 - Exponential stat growth (this issue should be somewhat alleviated in WoD)
2 - Flying (doh)
3 - Lack of consequence in ganking players weaker than yourself
4 - Lack of reasons to gank players as strong or stronger than yourself

Back to the point...
If you try to cherry-pick a target while ground mounted, there's a very big chance you will get cherry-picked yourself.
If you try to run away from a target while ground mounted, someone else may get you.
There's counterplay involved.

Flying mounts, however, are the only type of travel that counts as an extremely mobile sanctuary - allowing you to scan an area at the highest possible speed and in complete safety while letting you reach your target in two seconds, and securing a guaranteed escape.

They are not pointless...but yes people more often will choose flying because it is simply that much faster.

More often? Haha, tell me another one.
The only reasons people don't choose flying mounts is if:
a) you can't fly in the area (or at your level)
b) you're accompanying someone who has the problem in a)
c) you're not really bothered with traveling speed, probably just chilling, showing off or roleplaying

[Nayaga]

I was forgetting about flight paths.

Let's delve on that a little bit.
Flight Paths let you travel from point A to point B.
I don't consider that skipping content - not in the sense I do when I mention Flying Mounts.

Flying mounts letting you travel from point A to point B is NOT a problem.
Flying mounts letting you explore is NOT a problem.

Flying Mounts letting you get the reward without overcoming the challenge IS a problem. Flight Paths can't do this.
Flying Mounts completely defeating the idea of fairplay by letting you cherry-pick every opponent IS a problem. Flight Paths can't do this.
Flying Mounts making Ground Mounts pointless IS a problem. Flight Paths don't do this either.

But I disagree when you say that Flying Travel will never be balanced with Ground Travel.

So what exactly are the problematic characteristics of flying? How to change them?

• Ground Mounts should be better - at least - for short distances. For that to happen, they would need:
  
  • An acceleration mechanic - represented by a gauge or stacks (or both):
    Ground Mounts would have the fastest acceleration. Mounts would have a higher max speed than they have now to compensate.
    
    Fastest Flying (changed to +350%) = 100-135-170-205-240-275-310-345-380-415-450%
    Fastest Ground (changed to +150%) = 100-175-250%
    Assuming you can get 1 stack per second, this means Flying Mounts would take 5 seconds to reach a speed higher than what Ground Mounts can reach in 2 seconds.
  • A deceleration mechanic:
    You shouldn't be able to just unmount at full speed to gank or grab a chest. You must first decelerate to a reasonable speed.
    I'd say being able to lose 2 stacks of speed per second (twice as fast as acceleration) would be a fair deceleration rate.
• You shouldn't be able to fly at max speed through everything.
  Certain areas should work as a wall to flying or restrict flight speed.
  Hitting a tree, wall or ground should force you to 0 speed and hurt you based on the amount of speed you have above that (and potentially killing you).
  
  Wanna go afk while flying? Use a flight path.
  Hitting a branch or entering treetops would hurt you based on the amount of speed above X (and potentially killing you), and lower your speed by Y.
• Countering mounts, specially flying mounts' ability to trivialize content.
  
  • While mounted you should take X% increased damage per stack of acceleration.
  • Getting hit should remove 1 stack of acceleration.
  • Getting hit under certain circumstances would dismount you - this would require you to be at 0 acceleration; or below X% Health (or both)
  • Mobs should have better aerial awareness, and decent abilities to use against aerial targets. (I'm not talking about cheesy dismounts)
  This means you're trying to run away or get closer, only to be pre-empted by the enemies.

With just the 4 ideas above, you'd already have fairly balanced mount mechanics.

You wouldn't just blindly go through trees or hit walls like it's nobody's business.
Flying would be great (even better than now) for traveling large distances and crossing entire zones.
But you wouldn't land like a lightning bolt anymore.

I like many of these ideas. Collision, damage and dismounts would be a good idea.

[Nurvus]

I like many of these ideas. Collision, damage and dismounts would be a good idea.

Then I strongly invite you to check out my thread in the official forums (EU).
Perhaps if enough of us give feedback there, Blizzard will at least consider some of the ideas.
The Future of Mounts (Constructive)

I also invite anyone with access to the US forums to re-post or quote it, there.

[gamingmuscle]

World PvP being unfair has to do with a few problems, including (but not limited to):
1 - Exponential stat growth (this issue should be somewhat alleviated in WoD)
2 - Flying (doh)
3 - Lack of consequence in ganking players weaker than yourself
4 - Lack of reasons to gank players as strong or stronger than yourself

Yes because flying is safe. I said that.

Back to the point...
If you try to cherry-pick a target while ground mounted, there's a very big chance you will get cherry-picked yourself.
There's counterplay involved.

Yes it's possible. But it is still true. Vanilla was full of cherry picked world pvp. Once it was determined that a player was hunting there he may get countered, or if there just so happened to be more people in the area than the pvper noticed he may get countered. Flying/grounded isn't integral to this.

If you try to run away from a target while ground mounted, someone else may get you.

Which points to the only problem with flight.

Flying mounts, however, are the only type of travel that counts as an extremely mobile sanctuary that allows you to scan an area at the highest possible speed and in complete safety while letting you reach your target in two seconds, and securing a guaranteed escape.

Again the problem of being safe....hardly guaranteed...but very likely if you can mount.

More often? Haha, tell me another one.
The only reasons people don't choose flying mounts is if:
a) you can't fly in the area (or at your level)
b) you're accompanying someone who has the problem in a)
c) you're not really bothered with traveling speed, probably just chilling, showing off or roleplaying

I like my blizzard bear with a murlock on its head. It is my favorite mount. It is hot keyed. I'm also the kind of person to do something I like because I like it and it doesn't matter if there are "easier/faster/better" options.

[Nurvus]

I understand what you are saying in terms of mob loot but ORE values have stayed the same for a very long time. So unless they increase the amount of ORE you get per node to account for the time it would take to get it via flying. Then the efficiency will be less than it is with flying. I am talking purely about professions which really have not changed much in the amount of stuff that drops. I don't care where I am to other players, if the amount of materials I gather is less than before (due to being slower) its not as efficient.

It's not a big deal but its a slightly annoying one. FYI, I don't sell much stuff on the AH I make stuff for my character weapons armour etc bars that are used for belts etc you name it on my shaman its alchemy and herbal-ism so I make my own flasks and pots. If it takes longer to get the stuff I need then yeh its a bit of a PITA.

The bolded part is completely false, because everyone will have the same efficiency.
It also means what you craft with said materials will be worth more.

[gamingmuscle]

The bolded part is completely false, because everyone will have the same efficiency.
It also means what you craft with said materials will be worth more.

LOL...his statement is still true. Node gathering will be less efficient unless the # nodes per zone is increase or the # mats per node are increased.

This is trivial to prove.

If you are gathering and need to transverse lets say 4 units of distance to mine/pick a node. Which is going to take longer, moving at 4 (flying) or moving at 2 (grounded)

4/4=1 t (some arbitrary time unit)
4/2=2

# nodes per unit of time

Flying: 1/1=1
Grounded: 1/2=.5

So being grounded without them changing # nodes or # mats per node will be roughly half as efficient as now.

[Sweetpeaz]

Where in your completely honest and non-hypocritical argument is there a choice in using a Ground Mount over Flying Mount?

Oh, and I'm talking about real choices.
1 way to do it right and 3 ways to do it wrong != choice

I am sorry I don't understand what point you are trying to make.

Today, if I want to go from Point A to Point B I have a few choices. I can use a flying mount, a ground mount, or a combination with a flight path.

And you are absolutely 100% wrong about 1 way of doing it and 3 wrong != choice. In fact, having a choice is not in any way related to being right and wrong. Right and wrong are terms applied after a choice is made.

[Sunseeker]

The bolded part is completely false, because everyone will have the same efficiency.
It also means what you craft with said materials will be worth more.

Not true. My Paladin will ride faster than your Warrior, so will my DK and every other class with a mounted movement speed buff.
Not like the AH isn't already controlled on most servers by a few people (who most on that server can name) and the prices aren't absurd to begin with.