1. #8361
    Epic! Nurvus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetpeaz View Post
    I did no such thing.

    Sub losses after 5.0 were due to the dailies and gated reputations. .......
    "Back in 5.0 and 5.1 I was on the forums reading the thousands of posts about dailies and their reputations being gated. And you know what the fanbois all said "Suck it up, you're wrong" As soon as the sub numbers came out we had a fix, because that is what they care about. Never mind that people were saying for months that it was hurting the game, the developers and their minions weren't hearing any of it."

    The comparison is how the community reacted and how they were treated. I'll trust my instincts instead of people who are operating with an agenda. As I said....we shall see.
    I can do some funny assumptions too!
    Try imagining this crazy idea, where Blizzard was indeed listening to players, and was working on ways to deal with the issue, but just happened to figure it out shortly after the sub losses were revealed.

    But, we'll never know whether this was the case, because of people like you
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  2. #8362
    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetpeaz View Post
    Back in 5.0 and 5.1 I was on the forums reading the thousands of posts about dailies and their reputations being gated. And you know what the fanbois all said "Suck it up, you're wrong" As soon as the sub numbers came out we had a fix, because that is what they care about.
    Or like, Blizzard took a look at the daily grind and decided it wasn't working out and so came up with something better? Or is it totally impossible that WoW is an iterative design and they improve where they can?

    Also, factually false: MoP came out September 2012, 5.1 was in November 2012, and subs were stable at that point despite having dropped for most of the previous year. They didn't drop again significantly until early 2013, about the time ToT/IoT came out.

    http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-1.png
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  3. #8363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurvus View Post
    I can do some funny assumptions too!
    Try imagining this crazy idea, where Blizzard was indeed listening to players, and was working on ways to deal with the issue, but just happened to figure it out shortly after the sub losses were revealed.

    But, we'll never know whether this was the case, because of people like you
    People like me have nothing to do with the truth being told by Blizzard.

    Every expansion they do a debrief that talks about what went right and what didn't. They have even stated that dailies 'felt too mandatory' which was not their intent. That doesn't do anything to negate the brick wall and lost revenue they had as a result during the process of figuring it out.

    They do listen to their community. The problem here is they need to listen before the shit hits the fan and not after.

  4. #8364
    Quote Originally Posted by HippopotamusMaximus View Post
    I think the argument is that if you want to fix extraneous mobs you should fix the mobs first, and then remove flying if your fix works, not remove flight and make people trudge through extraneous mobs, then realize that it's pretty pointless since they offer no challenge at max level anymore.
    WoW is not specifically designed in such a way that if your quest tells you to kill 8 kobolds, you will only have to kill 8 kobolds and absolutely nothing else. Sometimes you can, sometimes you have to fight additional mobs. Big fucking deal IMO.

    If you hate it so much, just don't do the endgame outdoor content. Queue for dungeons and raids as you sit on your flying mount in SW and Org. You don't HAVE to do it, any more than you had to do IoT or TI.

    Blizzard is designing Draenor to be not only a leveling zone (which are almost always no-fly) but also an endgame outdoor content zone (which are always no-fly) so it just makes sense to make the whole thing no-fly, at least so long as the content remains relevant. They think that zones like TI and IoT and Molten Front and TB Peninsula and Isle of QD are better if you can't fly. If you don't agree, that's cool, they're not mandatory. If you're really that mad over something so trivial go ahead and quit.

    I just can't understand why it's such a huge deal given that in leveling and endgame zones and scenarios and dungeons and raids and BGs and arenas - you know the places you actually spend the majority of your time in (when not AFK in queues) where the vast majority of the content is - are already no-fly and have been since the game began.
    Last edited by Mormolyce; 2014-06-05 at 03:38 AM.
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  5. #8365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Or like, Blizzard took a look at the daily grind and decided it wasn't working out and so came up with something better? Or is it totally impossible that WoW is an iterative design and they improve where they can?

    Also, factually false: MoP came out September 2012, 5.1 was in November 2012, and subs were stable at that point despite having dropped for most of the previous year. They didn't drop again significantly until early 2013, about the time ToT/IoT came out.

    http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-1.png

    Not sure how you read that graph. But MoP launched with 10 million in subscriptions.
    Q4 of 2012 it had dropped to 9.4. Still impressive
    Q1 of 2013 it dropped 8.3
    Q2 of 2013 it dropped to 7.7

    That means in the three quarters following the release of MoP, they dropped 2.3 million subs.

    When was 5.2 released? March of 2013. That is when ToT was released. It had already dropped 1.7 million by that time.

  6. #8366
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    Quote Originally Posted by HippopotamusMaximus View Post
    It's funny cause the anti-fliers call the pro-fliers the "vocal minority who shouts really loud" or whatever that dumb expression is they use, yet in the 423 pages of this thread the pro fliers give the most coherent, factual arguments while most of the anti-fliers rely on emotional argumentation such as "it feels wrong" or "whatever blizzard feels is right", and often use personal attacks as recourse such as calling people kids who want want want (although we want nothing else than what we've already had for years) and just being plain childish themselves.
    Here's a most coherent, factual argument:
    Blizzard isn't removing what you already had for years, because you will still be able to fly in all content you already have.
    Draenor - content you don't have yet - is simply being designed like the Dungeons, Raids and Battlegrounds you've loved for years - with no flying.

    And actually, in most threads I've read (haven't read much of this one) it's the opposite of what you say - pro-fliers full of entitlement, and anti-fliers explaining the flaws of flying.

    Furthermore, you are ignoring the fact that most "anti-fliers" aren't against flying per se - they're just against the way the CURRENT flying works.
    Most of the "pro-fliers" actually deny or ignore any and all flaws that others identify in flying.

    Why is it that all pro-flying arguments conveniently ignore the fact that ground mounts have always been inutilized by flying mounts?

    I want flying to STAY in the game, but I do NOT want it the way it is now.
    I want ground mounts to be BETTER than flying mounts for something - short distances, for example.
    I made a thread in the official forums where I suggest - among many things - an "acceleration/deceleration" mechanic, such that ground mounts reach their max speed really fast, and flying mounts take much longer.

    I want mounts to be unable to cheese content.
    In the thread linked above, I also suggest proper dismount mechanics (not random daze crap) and areas that restrict/prevent movement (treetops, narrow passages).
    Last edited by Nurvus; 2014-06-05 at 03:48 AM.
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  7. #8367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurvus View Post
    Here's a most coherent, factual argument:
    Blizzard isn't removing what you already had for years, because you will still be able to fly in all content you already have.
    Draenor - content you don't have yet - is simply being designed like the Dungeons, Raids and Battlegrounds you've loved for years - with no flying.

    And actually, in most threads I've read (haven't read much of this one) it's the opposite of what you say - pro-fliers full of entitlement, and anti-fliers explaining the flaws of flying.

    Furthermore, you are ignoring the fact that most "anti-fliers" aren't against flying - they're just against the CURRENT way flying works.
    Most of the "pro fliers" deny or ignore any and all flaws that others identify in flying.

    Why is it that those that argue that their flying mount collection is inutilized unless they can fly in Draenor, conveniently ignore the fact that ground mounts are inutilized by flying mounts?

    In every single expansion in the history of the game you have been able to fly at max level, as soon as you purchased the skill and/or license?

    Yes or No?

    I've never read anybody advocating for flying in raids, BGs, or dungeons, so that seems like a strawman there. All they want (all I want) is to be able to fly, where I want, when I want, on the mount that I want, at max level like I have for 7+ years.

    All I hear from others is immersion (which is subjective) and WPVP which is irrelevant. Questing doesn't matter because at Max level, the choice to quest or not is irrelevant.

    If it's good content, it will be compelling enough to keep you on the ground in the first place. Right?

  8. #8368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetpeaz View Post
    In every single expansion in the history of the game you have been able to fly at max level, as soon as you purchased the skill and/or license?

    Yes or No?

    I've never read anybody advocating for flying in raids, BGs, or dungeons, so that seems like a strawman there. All they want (all I want) is to be able to fly, where I want, when I want, on the mount that I want, at max level like I have for 7+ years.

    All I hear from others is immersion (which is subjective) and WPVP which is irrelevant. Questing doesn't matter because at Max level, the choice to quest or not is irrelevant.

    If it's good content, it will be compelling enough to keep you on the ground in the first place. Right?
    And why do you want to fly at max level? Why not before max level?
    Why has it always been acceptable to start an expansion unable to fly, and then become able to fly at max level?

    You're saying it should stay as it is because it has always been? Really? There was no flying in vanilla.
    Why is it okay to have no flying in thunder isle or timeless isle?
    Why has it always been okay to have no flying in dungeons, raids or battlegrounds?

    I hope at some point you realize you're the one being arbitrary.

    Have you never wondered why EVERY competitive environment is DEVOID of flying?
    Do you see no correlation?

    Flying mounts - as they work now - make the world feel dead.
    Most players - specially when rolling an alt - just rush to max level.
    As a max level player, your gameplay mostly revolves around trying to avoid any challenges - essentially trying as hard as possible to NOT play - to get the reward.

    Flying is awesome in itself. Exploration is great.
    But everyone knows flying is barely used for exploration or its "awesomeness".
    Flying nowadays is 99% convenience, 1% fun.
    Last edited by Nurvus; 2014-06-05 at 04:07 AM.
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  9. #8369
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurvus View Post
    And why do you want to fly at max level? Why not before max level?
    We should be able to fly before max level. We can fly now. We should not be magically unable to fly every 2 years because of reasons.

    Why has it always been acceptable to start an expansion unable to fly, and then become able to fly at max level?
    Because Blizzard is lazy and does not want to design content with flying in mind. They have done it repeatedly and it must cost more or be harder.

    You're saying it should stay as it is because it has always been? Really? There was no flying in vanilla.
    People love Big Macs. So McDonalds should just come out and change them despite no one complaining or asking for changes right?


    Why is it okay to have no flying in thunder isle or timeless isle?
    It is not. Its lazy design on Blizzards part. But some people accept it or at least tolerate it because that content is short lived. I think its shit design personally.

    Why has it always been okay to have no flying in dungeons, raids or battlegrounds?
    I think people would prefer flying as an element in some of that content. Flying in a Battleground would be epic.


    I hope at some point you realize you're the one being arbitrary.
    Actually the no flying crowd is the ones on the wrong side here. They are demanding and then cheering for a change that they want that benefits no one.


    Have you never wondered why EVERY competitive environment is DEVOID of flying?
    No, I know why, its lazy and unoriginal design.


    Flying mounts - as they work now - make the world feel dead.
    Actually no they don't. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

    I would counterclaim that queueing for dungeons, BGs and raids anywhere and teleportation to them makes the world dead because transport and location no longer matter. If you had to travel to each instance, it would require you enter the world instead of sitting in Org or SW.


    Most players - specially when rolling an alt - just rush to max level.
    Yes because leveling sucks. The real fun is typically end game raiding, PvP and 5 mans. Leveling content has not traditionally been anywhere near as compelling, interesting or lasting. You've done it once, doing it again is a chore especially since the questing on rails changes in Cata.

    As a max level player, your gameplay mostly revolves around trying to avoid any challenges - essentially trying as hard as possible to NOT play - to get the reward.
    Says who? You are really grasping here.

    Flying is awesome in itself. Exploration is great.
    But everyone knows flying is barely used for exploration or its "awesomeness".
    Flying nowadays is 99% convenience, 1% fun.
    Says who? You? Please spare me. Flying is fantastic for many reasons. I'd rather fly around any day than be stuck on a taxi tabbed out to reddit, or running endlessly on some path with monsters on it that demount you. That is shitty game design and is annoying. It wasn't fun 10 years ago, it REALLY is not fun now.

  10. #8370
    We should be able to fly before max level. We can fly now. We should not be magically unable to fly every 2 years because of reasons.
    We should be given best in slot armor at the start of each expansion instead of having to kill bosses because of reasons.

    Because Blizzard is lazy and does not want to design content with flying in mind. They have done it repeatedly and it must cost more or be harder.
    Excepting Vanilla, What content did they not design with flying in mind that can currently be flied in?

    People love Big Macs. So McDonalds should just come out and change them despite no one complaining or asking for changes right?
    I'll fix this for accuracy: "People Love Big Macs, so Mcdonalds changed the Big Mac, despite no one asking for change, and they're now going to change it back"

    It is not. Its lazy design on Blizzards part. But some people accept it or at least tolerate it because that content is short lived. I think its shit design personally.
    You need to get your head around the fact that Blizzard aren't lying when they say they want us on the ground to experience the world. Sure you can do it from the air, but would you? Or would you skip right over it? For the very vast majority I would say the latter. This isn't lazy designing, if Blizzard changed everything to be as easy as flying you'd have no game left.

    I think people would prefer flying as an element in some of that content. Flying in a Battleground would be epic.
    How do you fight people? You've just taken the battle out of Battleground.

    Actually the no flying crowd is the ones on the wrong side here. They are demanding and then cheering for a change that they want that benefits no one.
    No one? If you actually believe that we're all wasting our time here.

    No, I know why, its lazy and unoriginal design.
    This gets my vote for laziest, most unoriginal comment in this thread

    Actually no they don't. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

    I would counterclaim that queueing for dungeons, BGs and raids anywhere and teleportation to them makes the world dead because transport and location no longer matter. If you had to travel to each instance, it would require you enter the world instead of sitting in Org or SW.
    It's ironic that your argument here is laughably close to the Anti fliers argument.

    Yes because leveling sucks. The real fun is typically end game raiding, PvP and 5 mans. Leveling content has not traditionally been anywhere near as compelling, interesting or lasting. You've done it once, doing it again is a chore especially since the questing on rails changes in Cata.
    And to think only a few posts up a pro-flier made a comment about the maturity of their camp.

    Says who? You? Please spare me. Flying is fantastic for many reasons. I'd rather fly around any day than be stuck on a taxi tabbed out to reddit, or running endlessly on some path with monsters on it that demount you. That is shitty game design and is annoying. It wasn't fun 10 years ago, it REALLY is not fun now.
    Flying in the air, pointing your mount in a direction then hitting auto run and grabbing a drink, is not dissimilar to using a flight path. It's not playing the game or experiencing the world. Bad design is being able to play the game AFK.

  11. #8371
    Brewmaster Nayaga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarkol View Post
    Dude, there really are more reasons to remove flying than FUCK CONVENIENCE. It's not just about that. Please see past your own personal gripes to consider the other angles.
    I would like to consider more angles, lets discuss it.

    No flying is not a personal gripe, many people want flying to remain in the game. Even Alex Afrasiabi thinks about 50% people want flying to remain in the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Anzaman View Post
    Well, was Pandaria leveling boring? Or well, pretty much whole 1 to 90, to be honest? I actually found it quite interesting.

    Even in Isle of Thunder, where citadel is filled with trolls, I manage to move without pulling a single troll or getting dazed. Just a bit tactical planning, instead of going through every single troll and raptor there.
    I was not bored with leveling in Pandaria, I found it lots of fun, matter of fact I thought MoP was great. Some of the best raids ever (IMO).

    I didn't find Pandaria empty of mobs, we must be on different servers.

  12. #8372
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Being able to stealth past extraneous mobs is part of the gameplay/perks of being a Rogue.
    and flying is a max level perk for everyone so that after 10 levels, they are able to move past extraneous mobs and is not class specific so to not allow one class to skip things while another has to trudge through worthless crap just to get to the parts of the game that are "more interesting or fun".

    P.S. Hunters are way better for ganking than Rogues.
    Very true ^
    Last edited by quras; 2014-06-05 at 12:51 PM.

  13. #8373
    Brewmaster Nayaga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurvus View Post
    And why do you want to fly at max level? Why not before max level?
    Why has it always been acceptable to start an expansion unable to fly, and then become able to fly at max level?
    It make sense to me to complete quests and clear all zones on the ground so that you can't skip the mechanics of the quests. However, once we have consumed the content, complete all quests and cleared all zone are we are done with quest and exploration content. Once the immersion has been consumed, I want flying back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nurvus View Post
    Flying mounts - as they work now - make the world feel dead.
    What makes a zone dead is when people have cleared the content and have much less reason to be in that cleared zone. So does queuing for content and Garrisons are also likely to push people out of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nurvus View Post
    As a max level player, your gameplay mostly revolves around trying to avoid any challenges - essentially trying as hard as possible to NOT play - to get the reward.
    There is no challenge, risk and little reward slogging through lower level mobs at level cap in a cleared zone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nurvus View Post
    Flying nowadays is 99% convenience, 1% fun.
    Fun is subjective. Flying might be 1% fun to you, but not everyone has fun in the same way as you.
    Last edited by Nayaga; 2014-06-05 at 12:52 PM.

  14. #8374
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    It seems WoD is going to be awesome.
    I just re-subbed after 4 years because I also think it will be awesome

  15. #8375
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurvus View Post
    And why do you want to fly at max level? Why not before max level?
    Why has it always been acceptable to start an expansion unable to fly, and then become able to fly at max level?
    Because it makes you go through the quests, get the feel of the story, characters, and lore. I enjoy that the first time through....by the 4th time I am tired of it and want it to be done. I have 7 level 90 characters so I did this a lot. But once I hit max level.....there is no reason to quest or do any of those things any longer.



    Quote Originally Posted by Nurvus View Post

    You're saying it should stay as it is because it has always been? Really? There was no flying in vanilla.
    Why is it okay to have no flying in thunder isle or timeless isle?
    Why has it always been okay to have no flying in dungeons, raids or battlegrounds?
    Flying is awesome in itself. Exploration is great.
    But everyone knows flying is barely used for exploration or its "awesomeness".
    Flying nowadays is 99% convenience, 1% fun.

    You're saying it should stay as it is because it has always been? Really? There was no flying in vanilla. --> Travel in vanilla sucked.
    Why is it okay to have no flying in thunder isle or timeless isle? --> Worst two zones of this expansion and they are complete throwaway content. Even people who will eventually level through Pandaria again will have no reason to go threre.
    Why has it always been okay to have no flying in dungeons, raids or battlegrounds? --> Because they are instanced and you must arrive with a group of people, or try to solo it. There is no reason to fly in a dungeon or raid unless it's part of the mechanics there. I have never heard of people clamoring for flight in a raid....seems like a strawman to me.
    Flying is awesome in itself. Exploration is great. --> Agreed
    But everyone knows flying is barely used for exploration or its "awesomeness". -->Speak for yourself.
    Flying nowadays is 99% convenience, 1% fun --> For you. There is no doubt it's a QoL issue. Seems to me if you don't like it you don't have to use it.
    Last edited by Sweetpeaz; 2014-06-05 at 01:24 PM.

  16. #8376
    Quote Originally Posted by Trork View Post
    I just re-subbed after 4 years because I also think it will be awesome
    I cancelled after nearly 11 years because I think it will suck.

    I've seen the no flying content blizzard has cooked up. Vanilla travel sucked and TI style content wasn't good any of the times blizzard tried to push it into the game. No way I would support it now given blizzards "we don't know what the "F" we are going to do stance so we'll just see what gamers do. So just wait and see."

    Blizzard can't be decisive on flying and they want me to believe they can fix other game issues? I doubt it at this point.
    Last edited by quras; 2014-06-05 at 01:14 PM.

  17. #8377
    Quote Originally Posted by quras View Post
    and flying is a max level perk for everyone so that after 10 levels,
    Class-defining ability != class-independent perk.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by quras View Post
    I cancelled after nearly 11 years because I think it will suck.
    Well, bye! Don't let the hangar door hit your tailfins on the way out.

    I hope you have fun in another MMO that thinks flying like WoW's is a good idea. Here's a list of ones you might look at:
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  18. #8378
    Scarab Lord Keile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetpeaz View Post
    In every single expansion in the history of the game you have been able to fly at max level, as soon as you purchased the skill and/or license?

    Yes or No?
    So basically because they have done it in the past means they cannot deviate from that? That's pretty closed minded, but at the same time change is scary to most people.
    There is a thin line between not knowing and not caring, and I like to think that I walk that line every day.

  19. #8379
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    WoW is not specifically designed in such a way that if your quest tells you to kill 8 kobolds, you will only have to kill 8 kobolds and absolutely nothing else. Sometimes you can, sometimes you have to fight additional mobs. Big fucking deal IMO.
    Almost no one is asking for flight while leveling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    If you hate it so much, just don't do the endgame outdoor content. Queue for dungeons and raids as you sit on your flying mount in SW and Org. You don't HAVE to do it, any more than you had to do IoT or TI.
    Some people will hate no flying and end up sitting in SW and Org. Garrisons will also push people out of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Blizzard is designing Draenor to be not only a leveling zone (which are almost always no-fly) but also an endgame outdoor content zone (which are always no-fly) so it just makes sense to make the whole thing no-fly, at least so long as the content remains relevant. They think that zones like TI and IoT and Molten Front and TB Peninsula and Isle of QD are better if you can't fly. If you don't agree, that's cool, they're not mandatory. If you're really that mad over something so trivial go ahead and quit.
    Flying might be trivial to you, but not everyone. Not everyone plays the game the same way as you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetpeaz View Post
    People like me have nothing to do with the truth being told by Blizzard.

    Every expansion they do a debrief that talks about what went right and what didn't. They have even stated that dailies 'felt too mandatory' which was not their intent. That doesn't do anything to negate the brick wall and lost revenue they had as a result during the process of figuring it out.

    They do listen to their community. The problem here is they need to listen before the shit hits the fan and not after.
    Unless the shit hits the fan (large subscription loss), Blizzard will continue on with their plans and goals.

  20. #8380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keile View Post
    So basically because they have done it in the past means they cannot deviate from that? That's pretty closed minded, but at the same time change is scary to most people.
    There is another phrase 'Don't break what isn't broken' which also applies.

    If flying was so bad in TBC, WotLK, Cata, and MOP, tell me what happened to make it so? Did they lose subs because of it? Was the world not designed for it?

    Yes change can be scary, but change for the sake of change is also stupid.

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