1. #8361
    Quote Originally Posted by Doomchicken View Post
    If flying was the main thing bringing people to the game then why isn't it the main thing keeping people in the game? Why has it dropped from 12.5 million to 7.7? It's not as big part of the picture that you make it out to be.

    What are you asking here? Nobody said that the game got to 12/5 million solely because of flying, what is true is that it was part of the equation.

    This will be cleared up easily enough though. If they don't allow flight and stay at 7 million subs you will be correct. If not, you will be wrong. Pretty simple really.

  2. #8362
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolercaust View Post
    I would agree with that. I think balancing flying with ground travel would be a better way to go.



    It's a false choice, the choice between flying and ground travel, because one is clearly better in every respect than the other. All flying did was set a new standard for travel in the open world, one that apparently Blizzard does not want to design open world content for.

    Was removing the "choice" to fly a bad idea? Arguably, yes. But we'll see how it plays out.
    One that blizzard and very very few developers do not want to do design open world content for. I'm not against flying or people who like flying, It just seems to me if Blizzard no longer want it and most of the mmo developers don't want it, then there has to be something about it that negatively effects how MMO's play out.

    It seems really really odd to me, if that Flying was as some people claim one of the reasons that WoW got to the level of popularity that it did that then wouldn't every mmo be trying to implement their version of it? I mean, these guys can add shit like that without being a total WoW clone so why haven't they?

    But yeah, we'll wait and see.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetpeaz View Post
    What are you asking here? Nobody said that the game got to 12/5 million solely because of flying, what is true is that it was part of the equation.

    This will be cleared up easily enough though. If they don't allow flight and stay at 7 million subs you will be correct. If not, you will be wrong. Pretty simple really.
    Not really. It won't prove anything regardless of how far subs rise or how far subs fall. WoW has gained numbers big time and lost numbers big time in the time flying has been out. First quarter of MOP before TOT even came out WoW lost over 1 million subscribers. Certainly flying had nothing to do with that equation. Lost more than that back in Cata.

    The key to WoD's success won't be because of flying. They are going back to the things that have been proven to be big draws in the past. Characters and Places that the fans of the RTS game series of Warcraft that people know and want to interact with and hopefully good story and good content. Whether they are still big draws in 2014 with an everchanging and everexpanding mmo market is anyone's guess.

    The key to WoD's failure also won't be because of no flying. In Cata and MoP the big drops were because blizz gated the casuals too damn hard and they quit. Super hard dungeons with randoms and no other gearing paths/a billion dailies that feel mandatory coupled with Rep AND valor gating for gear that's better than the LFR gear have been proven ways to kill casual interest. Doing something like that will bring the subs massively down.

    The only way the no flying = WoW's doom could possibly be proven right is if they manage to do everything perfectly and still lose subs. But since flying has never been proven to be a draw, nor has it actually proven to be a sub loser, then likely we'll never truly know how many people love flying to the point that removing them is a deal breaker.
    Last edited by Doomchicken; 2014-06-05 at 01:37 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hooky View Post
    yeah wow cool..how about raising the valor cap consider WoD isn't that far away? 1000 valor points gets u a lollipop and kick in the nutsack these days! Back in my day we could get a bucket of candy and a pet ferret with that sort of points!
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    QUICKLY FRIENDS, TO THE HYPERBOLEMOBILE!

  3. #8363
    Quote Originally Posted by Doomchicken View Post

    Not really. It won't prove anything regardless of how far subs rise or how far subs fall. WoW has gained numbers big time and lost numbers big time in the time flying has been out. First quarter of MOP before TOT even came out WoW lost over 1 million subscribers. Certainly flying had nothing to do with that equation. Lost more than that back in Cata.

    The key to WoD's success won't be because of flying. They are going back to the things that have been proven to be big draws in the past. Characters and Places that the fans of the RTS game series of Warcraft that people know and want to interact with and hopefully good story and good content. Whether they are still big draws in 2014 with an everchanging and everexpanding mmo market is anyone's guess.

    The key to WoD's failure also won't be because of no flying. In Cata and MoP the big drops were because blizz gated the casuals too damn hard and they quit. Super hard dungeons with randoms and no other gearing paths/a billion dailies that feel mandatory coupled with Rep AND valor gating for gear that's better than the LFR gear have been proven ways to kill casual interest. Doing something like that will bring the subs massively down.

    The only way the no flying = WoW's doom could possibly be proven right is if they manage to do everything perfectly and still lose subs. But since flying has never been proven to be a draw, nor has it actually proven to be a sub loser, then likely we'll never truly know how many people love flying to the point that removing them is a deal breaker.
    What a cooked book response that was.

    You start out by saying that it won't matter and then try to justify why it couldn't possibly matter.

    This is really simple. You can like no flying and I'm happy for you, really. But this is an easy one to see coming, really easy.

    Back in 5.0 and 5.1 I was on the forums reading the thousands of posts about dailies and their reputations being gated. And you know what the fanbois all said "Suck it up, you're wrong" As soon as the sub numbers came out we had a fix, because that is what they care about. Never mind that people were saying for months that it was hurting the game, the developers and their minions weren't hearing any of it.

    So again, we shall see. If they change their minds it is for one reason and one reason alone....that people like me were right and fanbois were wrong.

    Oh...and as for it not being a draw, it's the single biggest draw for items sold at the store, and my guess is most of those don't buy the armored bloodwing because it looks so cool on the ground. One mount that sells 500,000 copies equals $12.5 million

    $12.5 million is equal to the subscriptions for 833889 people in North America, for a single month.

    It's a good thing people don't flying much though. /s

  4. #8364
    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetpeaz View Post
    What a cooked book response that was.

    You start out by saying that it won't matter and then try to justify why it couldn't possibly matter.

    This is really simple. You can like no flying and I'm happy for you, really. But this is an easy one to see coming, really easy.

    Back in 5.0 and 5.1 I was on the forums reading the thousands of posts about dailies and their reputations being gated. And you know what the fanbois all said "Suck it up, you're wrong" As soon as the sub numbers came out we had a fix, because that is what they care about. Never mind that people were saying for months that it was hurting the game, the developers and their minions weren't hearing any of it.

    So again, we shall see. If they change their minds it is for one reason and one reason alone....that people like me were right and fanbois were wrong.

    Oh...and as for it not being a draw, it's the single biggest draw for items sold at the store, and my guess is most of those don't buy the armored bloodwing because it looks so cool on the ground. One mount that sells 500,000 copies equals $12.5 million

    $12.5 million is equal to the subscriptions for 833889 people in North America, for a single month.

    It's a good thing people don't flying much though. /s
    The store means jack shit because it's not a continuous supply. Even if assuming that 12.5 million dollar figure that you made up is even close to accurate theres 2 things you "conveniently" forgot about.

    1) It's a one time only transaction. If their subs increase they will get more money out of their subs than "lost" at the blizzard store
    2) there's no reason to assume that if they removed all flying mounts from the store today and replaced them with ground mounts that looked as good that they wouldn't do around the same sales.

    Also you equated to no flying in WoD and compared it to the reason why the subs dropped in 5.0. Halting of casual progression, which is wrong. No flying won't stop people from queuing for dungeons, lfrs, grouping for flexis, scenarios and so forth. If the casuals can still get their gear at a reasonable rate, then it won't be like 5.0, or 4.0. Because people can still progress without flying.
    Last edited by Doomchicken; 2014-06-05 at 03:03 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hooky View Post
    yeah wow cool..how about raising the valor cap consider WoD isn't that far away? 1000 valor points gets u a lollipop and kick in the nutsack these days! Back in my day we could get a bucket of candy and a pet ferret with that sort of points!
    Quote Originally Posted by Herecius View Post
    QUICKLY FRIENDS, TO THE HYPERBOLEMOBILE!

  5. #8365
    Brewmaster Nurvus's Avatar
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    I am ambivalent about this issue.
    I love flying mounts and the concept of flying, but I also have the brains to identify the issues that the CURRENT flying brings to the game.

    This isn't me being self-righteous. People just need to pull the head out of the ground.

    Is removal of flying a way to fix the issues? Maybe, but it also guts part of the game.
    Is it the only way to fix the issues? Absolutely not.
    Is it the best way to fix the issues? Hell no.

    I made a thread on the official forums about an extensive suggestion on how Blizzard can KEEP flying in the game while simultaneously reducing/removing the issues it brings to the game.
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  6. #8366
    Quote Originally Posted by Doomchicken View Post
    Also you equated to no flying in WoD and compared it to the reason why the subs dropped in 5.0. Halting of casual progression, which is wrong. No flying won't stop people from queuing for dungeons, lfrs, grouping for flexis, scenarios and so forth. If the casuals can still get their gear at a reasonable rate, then it won't be like 5.0, or 4.0. Because people can still progress without flying.
    I did no such thing.

    Sub losses after 5.0 were due to the dailies and gated reputations. .......
    "Back in 5.0 and 5.1 I was on the forums reading the thousands of posts about dailies and their reputations being gated. And you know what the fanbois all said "Suck it up, you're wrong" As soon as the sub numbers came out we had a fix, because that is what they care about. Never mind that people were saying for months that it was hurting the game, the developers and their minions weren't hearing any of it."

    The comparison is how the community reacted and how they were treated. I'll trust my instincts instead of people who are operating with an agenda. As I said....we shall see.

  7. #8367
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosotti View Post
    Actually it means that all the people who don't have such abilities will be fucked. I played a rogue in Cata and the only thing people could to was to fly away from me. In Tol Barad and Firelands I used to get all kind of alt whispers from enraged people, because obviously the game was "much better" not having flying. That was my attempt to world PvP and you know what? People fucking hated it.

    And the funniest part is that even the "friends" can't help people from being fucked. I had people calling their "mighty friend", just to sit there sapped and blinded until the other dude was dead again.

    I can perfectly understand why this shit no flying is very welcomed by rogues
    Being able to stealth past extraneous mobs is part of the gameplay/perks of being a Rogue.

    P.S. Hunters are way better for ganking than Rogues.
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  8. #8368
    It's funny cause the anti-fliers call the pro-fliers the "vocal minority who shouts really loud" or whatever that dumb expression is they use, yet in the 423 pages of this thread the pro fliers give the most coherent, factual arguments while most of the anti-fliers rely on emotional argumentation such as "it feels wrong" or "whatever blizzard feels is right", and often use personal attacks as recourse such as calling people kids who want want want (although we want nothing else than what we've already had for years) and just being plain childish themselves.

    And yet Blizzard favors them, and then calls the rest of us toxic for the community. Right.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Being able to stealth past extraneous mobs is part of the gameplay/perks of being a Rogue.

    P.S. Hunters are way better for ganking than Rogues.
    I think the argument is that if you want to fix extraneous mobs you should fix the mobs first, and then remove flying if your fix works, not remove flight and make people trudge through extraneous mobs, then realize that it's pretty pointless since they offer no challenge at max level anymore.

  9. #8369
    Quote Originally Posted by HippopotamusMaximus View Post
    It's funny cause the anti-fliers call the pro-fliers the "vocal minority who shouts really loud" or whatever that dumb expression is they use, yet in the 423 pages of this thread the pro fliers give the most coherent, factual arguments while most of the anti-fliers rely on emotional argumentation such as "it feels wrong" or "whatever blizzard feels is right", and often use personal attacks as recourse such as calling people kids who want want want (although we want nothing else than what we've already had for years) and just being plain childish themselves.

    And yet Blizzard favors them, and then calls the rest of us toxic for the community. Right.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I think the argument is that if you want to fix extraneous mobs you should fix the mobs first, and then remove flying if your fix works, not remove flight and make people trudge through extraneous mobs, then realize that it's pretty pointless since they offer no challenge at max level anymore.
    That's the way it is will all subject like this.

    People play for their own reasons and the game means different things to each of them. Blizzard makes money off of all of them, so it should stand that they should appeal to as many as possible. There are too man people that think the game needs to change, so others are forced to play in a manner that they feel is right.

    It's just ridiculous.

  10. #8370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetpeaz View Post
    I did no such thing.

    Sub losses after 5.0 were due to the dailies and gated reputations. .......
    "Back in 5.0 and 5.1 I was on the forums reading the thousands of posts about dailies and their reputations being gated. And you know what the fanbois all said "Suck it up, you're wrong" As soon as the sub numbers came out we had a fix, because that is what they care about. Never mind that people were saying for months that it was hurting the game, the developers and their minions weren't hearing any of it."

    The comparison is how the community reacted and how they were treated. I'll trust my instincts instead of people who are operating with an agenda. As I said....we shall see.
    I can do some funny assumptions too!
    Try imagining this crazy idea, where Blizzard was indeed listening to players, and was working on ways to deal with the issue, but just happened to figure it out shortly after the sub losses were revealed.

    But, we'll never know whether this was the case, because of people like you
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  11. #8371
    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetpeaz View Post
    Back in 5.0 and 5.1 I was on the forums reading the thousands of posts about dailies and their reputations being gated. And you know what the fanbois all said "Suck it up, you're wrong" As soon as the sub numbers came out we had a fix, because that is what they care about.
    Or like, Blizzard took a look at the daily grind and decided it wasn't working out and so came up with something better? Or is it totally impossible that WoW is an iterative design and they improve where they can?

    Also, factually false: MoP came out September 2012, 5.1 was in November 2012, and subs were stable at that point despite having dropped for most of the previous year. They didn't drop again significantly until early 2013, about the time ToT/IoT came out.

    http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-1.png
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  12. #8372
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurvus View Post
    I can do some funny assumptions too!
    Try imagining this crazy idea, where Blizzard was indeed listening to players, and was working on ways to deal with the issue, but just happened to figure it out shortly after the sub losses were revealed.

    But, we'll never know whether this was the case, because of people like you
    People like me have nothing to do with the truth being told by Blizzard.

    Every expansion they do a debrief that talks about what went right and what didn't. They have even stated that dailies 'felt too mandatory' which was not their intent. That doesn't do anything to negate the brick wall and lost revenue they had as a result during the process of figuring it out.

    They do listen to their community. The problem here is they need to listen before the shit hits the fan and not after.

  13. #8373
    Quote Originally Posted by HippopotamusMaximus View Post
    I think the argument is that if you want to fix extraneous mobs you should fix the mobs first, and then remove flying if your fix works, not remove flight and make people trudge through extraneous mobs, then realize that it's pretty pointless since they offer no challenge at max level anymore.
    WoW is not specifically designed in such a way that if your quest tells you to kill 8 kobolds, you will only have to kill 8 kobolds and absolutely nothing else. Sometimes you can, sometimes you have to fight additional mobs. Big fucking deal IMO.

    If you hate it so much, just don't do the endgame outdoor content. Queue for dungeons and raids as you sit on your flying mount in SW and Org. You don't HAVE to do it, any more than you had to do IoT or TI.

    Blizzard is designing Draenor to be not only a leveling zone (which are almost always no-fly) but also an endgame outdoor content zone (which are always no-fly) so it just makes sense to make the whole thing no-fly, at least so long as the content remains relevant. They think that zones like TI and IoT and Molten Front and TB Peninsula and Isle of QD are better if you can't fly. If you don't agree, that's cool, they're not mandatory. If you're really that mad over something so trivial go ahead and quit.

    I just can't understand why it's such a huge deal given that in leveling and endgame zones and scenarios and dungeons and raids and BGs and arenas - you know the places you actually spend the majority of your time in (when not AFK in queues) where the vast majority of the content is - are already no-fly and have been since the game began.
    Last edited by Mormolyce; 2014-06-05 at 03:38 AM.
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  14. #8374
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Or like, Blizzard took a look at the daily grind and decided it wasn't working out and so came up with something better? Or is it totally impossible that WoW is an iterative design and they improve where they can?

    Also, factually false: MoP came out September 2012, 5.1 was in November 2012, and subs were stable at that point despite having dropped for most of the previous year. They didn't drop again significantly until early 2013, about the time ToT/IoT came out.

    http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-1.png

    Not sure how you read that graph. But MoP launched with 10 million in subscriptions.
    Q4 of 2012 it had dropped to 9.4. Still impressive
    Q1 of 2013 it dropped 8.3
    Q2 of 2013 it dropped to 7.7

    That means in the three quarters following the release of MoP, they dropped 2.3 million subs.

    When was 5.2 released? March of 2013. That is when ToT was released. It had already dropped 1.7 million by that time.

  15. #8375
    Brewmaster Nurvus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HippopotamusMaximus View Post
    It's funny cause the anti-fliers call the pro-fliers the "vocal minority who shouts really loud" or whatever that dumb expression is they use, yet in the 423 pages of this thread the pro fliers give the most coherent, factual arguments while most of the anti-fliers rely on emotional argumentation such as "it feels wrong" or "whatever blizzard feels is right", and often use personal attacks as recourse such as calling people kids who want want want (although we want nothing else than what we've already had for years) and just being plain childish themselves.
    Here's a most coherent, factual argument:
    Blizzard isn't removing what you already had for years, because you will still be able to fly in all content you already have.
    Draenor - content you don't have yet - is simply being designed like the Dungeons, Raids and Battlegrounds you've loved for years - with no flying.

    And actually, in most threads I've read (haven't read much of this one) it's the opposite of what you say - pro-fliers full of entitlement, and anti-fliers explaining the flaws of flying.

    Furthermore, you are ignoring the fact that most "anti-fliers" aren't against flying per se - they're just against the way the CURRENT flying works.
    Most of the "pro-fliers" actually deny or ignore any and all flaws that others identify in flying.

    Why is it that all pro-flying arguments conveniently ignore the fact that ground mounts have always been inutilized by flying mounts?

    I want flying to STAY in the game, but I do NOT want it the way it is now.
    I want ground mounts to be BETTER than flying mounts for something - short distances, for example.
    I made a thread in the official forums where I suggest - among many things - an "acceleration/deceleration" mechanic, such that ground mounts reach their max speed really fast, and flying mounts take much longer.

    I want mounts to be unable to cheese content.
    In the thread linked above, I also suggest proper dismount mechanics (not random daze crap) and areas that restrict/prevent movement (treetops, narrow passages).
    Last edited by Nurvus; 2014-06-05 at 03:48 AM.
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  16. #8376
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurvus View Post
    Here's a most coherent, factual argument:
    Blizzard isn't removing what you already had for years, because you will still be able to fly in all content you already have.
    Draenor - content you don't have yet - is simply being designed like the Dungeons, Raids and Battlegrounds you've loved for years - with no flying.

    And actually, in most threads I've read (haven't read much of this one) it's the opposite of what you say - pro-fliers full of entitlement, and anti-fliers explaining the flaws of flying.

    Furthermore, you are ignoring the fact that most "anti-fliers" aren't against flying - they're just against the CURRENT way flying works.
    Most of the "pro fliers" deny or ignore any and all flaws that others identify in flying.

    Why is it that those that argue that their flying mount collection is inutilized unless they can fly in Draenor, conveniently ignore the fact that ground mounts are inutilized by flying mounts?

    In every single expansion in the history of the game you have been able to fly at max level, as soon as you purchased the skill and/or license?

    Yes or No?

    I've never read anybody advocating for flying in raids, BGs, or dungeons, so that seems like a strawman there. All they want (all I want) is to be able to fly, where I want, when I want, on the mount that I want, at max level like I have for 7+ years.

    All I hear from others is immersion (which is subjective) and WPVP which is irrelevant. Questing doesn't matter because at Max level, the choice to quest or not is irrelevant.

    If it's good content, it will be compelling enough to keep you on the ground in the first place. Right?

  17. #8377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetpeaz View Post
    In every single expansion in the history of the game you have been able to fly at max level, as soon as you purchased the skill and/or license?

    Yes or No?

    I've never read anybody advocating for flying in raids, BGs, or dungeons, so that seems like a strawman there. All they want (all I want) is to be able to fly, where I want, when I want, on the mount that I want, at max level like I have for 7+ years.

    All I hear from others is immersion (which is subjective) and WPVP which is irrelevant. Questing doesn't matter because at Max level, the choice to quest or not is irrelevant.

    If it's good content, it will be compelling enough to keep you on the ground in the first place. Right?
    And why do you want to fly at max level? Why not before max level?
    Why has it always been acceptable to start an expansion unable to fly, and then become able to fly at max level?

    You're saying it should stay as it is because it has always been? Really? There was no flying in vanilla.
    Why is it okay to have no flying in thunder isle or timeless isle?
    Why has it always been okay to have no flying in dungeons, raids or battlegrounds?

    I hope at some point you realize you're the one being arbitrary.

    Have you never wondered why EVERY competitive environment is DEVOID of flying?
    Do you see no correlation?

    Flying mounts - as they work now - make the world feel dead.
    Most players - specially when rolling an alt - just rush to max level.
    As a max level player, your gameplay mostly revolves around trying to avoid any challenges - essentially trying as hard as possible to NOT play - to get the reward.

    Flying is awesome in itself. Exploration is great.
    But everyone knows flying is barely used for exploration or its "awesomeness".
    Flying nowadays is 99% convenience, 1% fun.
    Last edited by Nurvus; 2014-06-05 at 04:07 AM.
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  18. #8378
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurvus View Post
    And why do you want to fly at max level? Why not before max level?
    We should be able to fly before max level. We can fly now. We should not be magically unable to fly every 2 years because of reasons.

    Why has it always been acceptable to start an expansion unable to fly, and then become able to fly at max level?
    Because Blizzard is lazy and does not want to design content with flying in mind. They have done it repeatedly and it must cost more or be harder.

    You're saying it should stay as it is because it has always been? Really? There was no flying in vanilla.
    People love Big Macs. So McDonalds should just come out and change them despite no one complaining or asking for changes right?


    Why is it okay to have no flying in thunder isle or timeless isle?
    It is not. Its lazy design on Blizzards part. But some people accept it or at least tolerate it because that content is short lived. I think its shit design personally.

    Why has it always been okay to have no flying in dungeons, raids or battlegrounds?
    I think people would prefer flying as an element in some of that content. Flying in a Battleground would be epic.


    I hope at some point you realize you're the one being arbitrary.
    Actually the no flying crowd is the ones on the wrong side here. They are demanding and then cheering for a change that they want that benefits no one.


    Have you never wondered why EVERY competitive environment is DEVOID of flying?
    No, I know why, its lazy and unoriginal design.


    Flying mounts - as they work now - make the world feel dead.
    Actually no they don't. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

    I would counterclaim that queueing for dungeons, BGs and raids anywhere and teleportation to them makes the world dead because transport and location no longer matter. If you had to travel to each instance, it would require you enter the world instead of sitting in Org or SW.


    Most players - specially when rolling an alt - just rush to max level.
    Yes because leveling sucks. The real fun is typically end game raiding, PvP and 5 mans. Leveling content has not traditionally been anywhere near as compelling, interesting or lasting. You've done it once, doing it again is a chore especially since the questing on rails changes in Cata.

    As a max level player, your gameplay mostly revolves around trying to avoid any challenges - essentially trying as hard as possible to NOT play - to get the reward.
    Says who? You are really grasping here.

    Flying is awesome in itself. Exploration is great.
    But everyone knows flying is barely used for exploration or its "awesomeness".
    Flying nowadays is 99% convenience, 1% fun.
    Says who? You? Please spare me. Flying is fantastic for many reasons. I'd rather fly around any day than be stuck on a taxi tabbed out to reddit, or running endlessly on some path with monsters on it that demount you. That is shitty game design and is annoying. It wasn't fun 10 years ago, it REALLY is not fun now.

  19. #8379
    We should be able to fly before max level. We can fly now. We should not be magically unable to fly every 2 years because of reasons.
    We should be given best in slot armor at the start of each expansion instead of having to kill bosses because of reasons.

    Because Blizzard is lazy and does not want to design content with flying in mind. They have done it repeatedly and it must cost more or be harder.
    Excepting Vanilla, What content did they not design with flying in mind that can currently be flied in?

    People love Big Macs. So McDonalds should just come out and change them despite no one complaining or asking for changes right?
    I'll fix this for accuracy: "People Love Big Macs, so Mcdonalds changed the Big Mac, despite no one asking for change, and they're now going to change it back"

    It is not. Its lazy design on Blizzards part. But some people accept it or at least tolerate it because that content is short lived. I think its shit design personally.
    You need to get your head around the fact that Blizzard aren't lying when they say they want us on the ground to experience the world. Sure you can do it from the air, but would you? Or would you skip right over it? For the very vast majority I would say the latter. This isn't lazy designing, if Blizzard changed everything to be as easy as flying you'd have no game left.

    I think people would prefer flying as an element in some of that content. Flying in a Battleground would be epic.
    How do you fight people? You've just taken the battle out of Battleground.

    Actually the no flying crowd is the ones on the wrong side here. They are demanding and then cheering for a change that they want that benefits no one.
    No one? If you actually believe that we're all wasting our time here.

    No, I know why, its lazy and unoriginal design.
    This gets my vote for laziest, most unoriginal comment in this thread

    Actually no they don't. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

    I would counterclaim that queueing for dungeons, BGs and raids anywhere and teleportation to them makes the world dead because transport and location no longer matter. If you had to travel to each instance, it would require you enter the world instead of sitting in Org or SW.
    It's ironic that your argument here is laughably close to the Anti fliers argument.

    Yes because leveling sucks. The real fun is typically end game raiding, PvP and 5 mans. Leveling content has not traditionally been anywhere near as compelling, interesting or lasting. You've done it once, doing it again is a chore especially since the questing on rails changes in Cata.
    And to think only a few posts up a pro-flier made a comment about the maturity of their camp.

    Says who? You? Please spare me. Flying is fantastic for many reasons. I'd rather fly around any day than be stuck on a taxi tabbed out to reddit, or running endlessly on some path with monsters on it that demount you. That is shitty game design and is annoying. It wasn't fun 10 years ago, it REALLY is not fun now.
    Flying in the air, pointing your mount in a direction then hitting auto run and grabbing a drink, is not dissimilar to using a flight path. It's not playing the game or experiencing the world. Bad design is being able to play the game AFK.

  20. #8380
    Brewmaster Nayaga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarkol View Post
    Dude, there really are more reasons to remove flying than FUCK CONVENIENCE. It's not just about that. Please see past your own personal gripes to consider the other angles.
    I would like to consider more angles, lets discuss it.

    No flying is not a personal gripe, many people want flying to remain in the game. Even Alex Afrasiabi thinks about 50% people want flying to remain in the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Anzaman View Post
    Well, was Pandaria leveling boring? Or well, pretty much whole 1 to 90, to be honest? I actually found it quite interesting.

    Even in Isle of Thunder, where citadel is filled with trolls, I manage to move without pulling a single troll or getting dazed. Just a bit tactical planning, instead of going through every single troll and raptor there.
    I was not bored with leveling in Pandaria, I found it lots of fun, matter of fact I thought MoP was great. Some of the best raids ever (IMO).

    I didn't find Pandaria empty of mobs, we must be on different servers.

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