Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Sweetpeaz]

The reason they're not giving a clear answer on the future of flight is they haven't decided yet. It's really as simple as that.

I will agree that their store mount advertising might be out of line.

That could mean a couple of things:

That they really don't know and don't think that their customers care.
Or
They do know and know what it means, and that is why it was 'leaked' in the manner it was.

At least we agree that the guidelines need work....I will take that on a Monday any day!!!

[Destruktion]

That is reasonable, if that's the real answer. I keep seeing people say things like 'its not about consumption of content' or 'its not about gating' or 'its to make WPVP better'.

It's also reasonable that if you're selling a CE that gives you a flying mount, that they tell you why you cannot use that as a flying mount in the expansion it is being sold for. Even the release video for that mount, never shows it running on the ground. It spent over a minute of the video showing it in flight.

As I've said before, I strongly disagree with selling WoD-themed flying mounts in the way they are doing so.

[Florena]

That could mean a couple of things:

That they really don't know and don't think that their customers care.
Or
They do know and know what it means, and that is why it was 'leaked' in the manner it was.

At least we agree that the guidelines need work....I will take that on a Monday any day!!!

I think they're well aware that people care about flight, but if they don't have an answer for them what are they supposed to say? At least they've been honest about not having come to a decision, better than them letting people go on thinking they're getting flight in 6.1 when they might not.

[Bacon is the Answer]

They don't know how they're going to handle flight after 6.0, and they've made posts explaining that. If flying or not is going to be that big of an impact on your decision to buy it or not, then hold off on it, there's no rush.

I think people are hesitant to trust on blind faith.

[Nurvus]

This is where I get confused.

1. Originally it was no flying in Draenor until 6.1, and all future content.
2. Then it was, an epic quest that will be rolled out in 6.1.
3. Then it was maybe no flight at all.

As a paying consumer, I want to know what it's going to be 1, 2, or 3. I'm not happy with #1, at all, because I hated IoT and TI. But #3 is totally unacceptable for me.

If you are already accepting money for pre-orders, it has to be based on some scope of the end product. It's kind of cheap to say to people 'buyer beware' when the expectations of the previous 4 expansions should really be an honest enough way to arrive at expectations.

This isn't about raid sizes, or what they are doing with LFR. They've been pretty clear with not a lot of contradictory information about those issues, and they have been clear that a significant number of players never raid in any form. Flight is literally something that all players use. They should be clear...you can ignore 1 and 2, and go with 3?

As I said, they already gave you all the reasoning behind their issues with Flying.
Whether they add it later or not has a similar thought process to the changes in their decisions regarding Garrisons.

A lot of people criticize Blizzard for announcing they want you to pick which zone your Garrison is in and then going back on their word.
Those people either refuse to see or are simply oblivious to the way things are designed in a game with such a huge scale.
Everything you add, remove or change in an MMO as big as WoW creates ripples, and Blizzard needs to account for all those consequences - often fail to handle all of them, but at least try.

So let's go here through a small thought process - something I guess they do all day everyday:
What if you could pick where your Garrison is?
The Garrison is connected the advancement of each Zone, so in order to have your Garrison in a Zone that is meant for a higher level, wouldn't that mean you need to skip content to get your "favorite Garrison spot"?
What if you could pick where your Garrison is WITHIN a zone?
There would be phasing issues. If there are 6 spots to place your Garrison within an area, that means for any player there will be 5 empty spots.
So how would that be handled?
First, there would be no quests there, otherwise a) each player would miss 1 quest hub out of the 6; and b) the quests would need to be equivalent enough to the point that you'd essentially have 5 quest hub clones... not exactly great design.
Second, would there be any mobs/nodes/etc? If so, they would need to be equivalent too...
Third, would there be a garrison that you can/cannot enter (as if it belongs to someone else) and essentially counts as a dead area for you?
Possibly the best solution, since you have an Outpost in each Zone and only one of them becomes a full fledged Garrison, what if you can choose which one becomes the Garrison?
Even here there are some issues.
This either inhibits Blizzard from or greatly multiplies the development needed to add any sort of events linked to the advancing and/or upgrading of Garrisons.

So although Garrisons may seem a non-issue that Blizzard is making a big deal out of, if you think a little you'll find many holes in ANY solution you try to present that attempts to make us able to choose where our Garrison actually goes in Draenor.

The same goes for Flying.
It's not "fine", and there isn't a super easy way to fix it.
I've made a topic about it in the official forums - The Future of Mounts (Constructive) - but it's not a perfect solution either.

So armchair developers need to keep their egos in check and respect those actually working in the development of a successful game.

[Sweetpeaz]

They don't know how they're going to handle flight after 6.0, and they've made posts explaining that. If flying or not is going to be that big of an impact on your decision to buy it or not, then hold off on it, there's no rush.

I'm glad that you said that. It seems like common sense but I worry that it is not. There will be players that buy it, hit 100, and then quit because of this. And for what???? What are they really gaining by doing this? They had 7+ million people play throughout MoP.....they have to know this will cause that number to drop. Why?

Yes, I can hold off that is fine. My expectations of gaming are pretty lenient. However, my greatest concern is that they are doing irreparable harm to their brand. Blizzard used to make top of the tier games, now they seem to be more concerned about the bottom line first, and the quality of the game second. Look at the old nerfed drop rates for the D3 RMAH that was eventually removed. They sold a console version of D3 that didn't have it, and the fanbois all said 'Well...just purchase that version if you don't want the RMAH in the game', then they remove it 6 months later.

I worry that they don't care because the know the end is near? Get all the cash they can? Undertaking any item that immediately divides the game into 50/50 for or against is automatically a losing proposition. If they didn't undertake the flight item, people would just be excited about WoD. Nobody would be saying 'Man....I really wish they'd get rid of flight', and this would be the best expansion ever. Why even go down that road to begin with?

- - - Updated - - -

As I said, they already gave you all the reasoning behind their issues with Flying.
Whether they add it later or not has a similar thought process to the changes in their decisions regarding Garrisons.

A lot of people criticize Blizzard for announcing they want you to pick which zone your Garrison is in and then going back on their word.
Those people either refuse to see or are simply oblivious to the way things are designed in a game with such a huge scale.
Everything you add, remove or change in an MMO as big as WoW creates ripples, and Blizzard needs to account for all those consequences - often fail to handle all of them, but at least try.

So let's go here through a small thought process - something I guess they do all day everyday:
What if you could pick where your Garrison is?
The Garrison is connected the advancement of each Zone, so in order to have your Garrison in a Zone that is meant for a higher level, wouldn't that mean you need to skip content to get your "favorite Garrison spot"?
What if you could pick where your Garrison is WITHIN a zone?
There would be phasing issues. If there are 6 spots to place your Garrison within an area, that means for any player there will be 5 empty spots.
So how would that be handled?
First, there would be no quests there.
Second, would there be anything there? Wasted space or equal mobs/nodes/etc?
Would there be a garrison that you can enter but really belongs to no one and has nothing?
Possibly the best solution, what if you have an Outpost in each Zone, but only one of them becomes a full fledged Garrison, and you can choose which one that is (the others remain mere Outposts)?
Even here there are some issues.
This either inhibits Blizzard from or greatly multiplies the development needed to add any sort of events linked to the advancing and/or upgrading of Garrisons.

So although Garrisons may seem a non-issue that Blizzard is making a big deal out of, if you think a little you'll find many holes in ANY solution you try to present that attempts to make us able to choose where our Garrison actually goes in Draenor.

The same goes for Flying.
It's not "fine", and there isn't a super easy way to fix it.
I've made a topic about it in the official forums - The Future of Mounts (Constructive) - but it's not a perfect solution either.

So armchair developers need to keep their egos in check and respect the those actually working in the development of a successful game.

That's not fair to say that people need to keep their egos in check. Blizzard needs just lock down their expansion before releasing details on it.

I work on multi-million dollar applications ever single day. I understand the development process very well. They were either not as far along as they wanted people to believe, or they changed their mind.

Either way, it's on them to control the message, not to back themselves into a corner by saying things they were unsure of.

[Florena]

I'm glad that you said that. It seems like common sense but I worry that it is not. There will be players that buy it, hit 100, and then quit because of this. And for what???? What are they really gaining by doing this? They had 7+ million people play throughout MoP.....they have to know this will cause that number to drop. Why?

Yes, I can hold off that is fine. My expectations of gaming are pretty lenient. However, my greatest concern is that they are doing irreparable harm to their brand. Blizzard used to make top of the tier games, now they seem to be more concerned about the bottom line first, and the quality of the game second. Look at the old nerfed drop rates for the D3 RMAH that was eventually removed. They sold a console version of D3 that didn't have it, and the fanbois all said 'Well...just purchase that version if you don't want the RMAH in the game', then they remove it 6 months later.

I worry that they don't care because the know the end is near? Get all the cash they can? Undertaking any item that immediately divides the game into 50/50 for or against is automatically a losing proposition. If they didn't undertake the flight item, people would just be excited about WoD. Nobody would be saying 'Man....I really wish they'd get rid of flight', and this would be the best expansion ever. Why even go down that road to begin with?

Here's what I don't get. How does them taking away flight simultaneously get to be something that's going to potentially cause sub losses, and also a sign that they just don't care and that the game is coming to an end?

I can't think of any financial reasons to be removing flight. It's not like they're using it as an excuse to skimp on art resources in Draenor. So I don't think it IS a financial move, I think they're being honest. That they want to make the open world more enjoyable and that part of that, they feel, involves removing flight, whether it be all expansion or for a patch cycle, in order to make the world feel more alive.

Now I get that for some people they don't think that will work for them, or that it's unnecessary. Maybe you're right maybe not, I don't assume to know what you'll enjoy more, but I think that Blizzard DOES think it's a good move for gameplay and that they're willing to risk some sub losses over it.

So which is it. Is blizzard making this move as a cash grab or not? How is removing flight going to make them money? Either there's a reason that I don't see or they're actually doing this because they think it will improve gameplay and fits with their design philosophy for WoD.

[Nurvus]

Sweetpeaz, I find it hard to believe anyone will quit the game because of no flying IN DRAENOR (you can still fly everywhere else).

As for controlling the message, although I agree they could be more "professional", I find it refreshing to see developers act human, passionate, enthusiastic, and inevitably make mistakes because of it.

The community's attempts at cornering Blizzard doesn't make them communicate more - it makes them resort to talking like lawyers.

If you want to kill any warmth in the interaction between a company and its customers, you're succeeding.
You reap what you sow.

[Florena]

Sweetpeaz, I find it hard to believe anyone will quit the game because of no flying IN DRAENOR (you can still fly everywhere else).

As for controlling the message I agree they could be more "professional", but I find it refreshing to see developers act human and make mistakes, instead of talking like lawyers.
The community's attempts in cornering Blizzard doesn't make them communicate more - it makes them default to lawyer speech.

It's hard to be clear on the message though when it's something they've not yet decided on. Blizzard loves to itterate on things during development. And they're not going to make that decision until they're sure about it.

[Nayaga]

I have yet to see a SINGLE reasonable, logical argument towards keeping flying AS IT IS.

We have given them, you choose to ignore them because they don't fit your agenda.

All arguments in favor of flying so far are based on denial, hyperbole and/or ad hominem.
.

This is incorrect.

[Nurvus]

It's hard to be clear on the message though when it's something they've not yet decided on. Blizzard loves to itterate on things during development. And they're not going to make that decision until they're sure about it.

Yeah but sometimes one of the developers comes along and leaks something they're working on, because s/he thinks it's working well, and then they find something that makes it impossible/impractical.
It happens.
The fact they shared what they were doing is the good thing.
The fact they realized it wouldn't work is natural.

People are trying to twist it by saying that they shared something that they didn't know or perhaps knew wasn't going to happen as if development has no bumbs on the road.

[Bacon is the Answer]

Here's what I don't get. How does them taking away flight simultaneously get to be something that's going to potentially cause sub losses, and also a sign that they just don't care and that the game is coming to an end?

When you get a new car, you keep it in immaculate condition. You even upgrade it. Sometimes, upgrades don't go well and cause some issues. Eventually, the car is 10 years old and just not worth the money you are putting into it. At some point, you stop caring, and go buy a brand new car.

TBC and Wrath were upgrades. Cata was a mechanical issue that arose from too much upgrading. MoP was a new paint job and new tires. WoD looks to be more like a last ditch effort to restore the car to what it was. It will either make for an amazing restoration, or it will be the nail in the coffin as being too much effort and prompting the purchase of a new car.

[Nurvus]

We have given them, you choose to ignore them because they don't fit your agenda.

This is incorrect.

I give you 100 words with actual arguments and logic in them, where I admit removing flying isn't good, but is still better than not fixing it.

You give me 20 words worth of denial and opinionated statements.
Seems legit.

All arguments to keep flying as it is are exclusively based on:
- personal gameplay preference;
- denial of any problems caused by flying;
- prioritizing convenience over everything else.
None of them has any logical argument. Whatsoever.

Most arguments to fix flying (or not minding its removal) are based on:
- keeping it fair for all gameplay preferences;
- acknowledgement of the problems caused by flying.

Here's what you see in many pro-flying arguments:
Pro-fliers complaining Blizzard is making part of their mount collection useless (even though Blizzard said they want to let you use all mounts as ground mounts).
Someone asking why is it okay for ground mounts to suck as soon as you can fly?
Pro-fliers saying flying mounts are meant to be a pure upgrade.

So it's okay making part of your collection useless, afterall?
So Blizzard is just making the wrong part of your collection useless? Wrong for whom?

That is not even an argument - it's pure opinionated hypocrisy.

[Sweetpeaz]

Here's what I don't get. How does them taking away flight simultaneously get to be something that's going to potentially cause sub losses, and also a sign that they just don't care and that the game is coming to an end?

I can't think of any financial reasons to be removing flight. It's not like they're using it as an excuse to skimp on art resources in Draenor. So I don't think it IS a financial move, I think they're being honest. That they want to make the open world more enjoyable and that part of that, they feel, involves removing flight, whether it be all expansion or for a patch cycle, in order to make the world feel more alive.

Now I get that for some people they don't think that will work for them, or that it's unnecessary. Maybe you're right maybe not, I don't assume to know what you'll enjoy more, but I think that Blizzard DOES think it's a good move for gameplay and that they're willing to risk some sub losses over it.

So which is it. Is blizzard making this move as a cash grab or not? How is removing flight going to make them money? Either there's a reason that I don't see or they're actually doing this because they think it will improve gameplay and fits with their design philosophy for WoD.

Once people get to max level the game is open. You can do dungeons, farm materials, level professions, play the AH, raid, PVP. You can do anything you want.

Flight isn't what you do all the time, it's how you enable that content. By taking away flight, you aren't preventing people from doing those things, you are merely dictating how they must be accomplished. If they have said that travel will be updated to not penalize people from doing what they want, then why not enable it?
Can you not see the contradiction in those two items?

It's a cash grab because it extends content. Do you realize that if you make subs last 1 month longer that means ~$57 million more in their pockets?

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if they sold the flight tome in the store for $50.

- - - Updated - - -

It's hard to be clear on the message though when it's something they've not yet decided on. Blizzard loves to itterate on things during development. And they're not going to make that decision until they're sure about it.

Then I would say it's better to not say anything than to create false hope and PR messaging issues.

[Florena]

When you get a new car, you keep it in immaculate condition. You even upgrade it. Sometimes, upgrades don't go well and cause some issues. Eventually, the car is 10 years old and just not worth the money you are putting into it. At some point, you stop caring, and go buy a brand new car.

TBC and Wrath were upgrades. Cata was a mechanical issue that arose from too much upgrading. MoP was a new paint job and new tires. WoD looks to be more like a last ditch effort to restore the car to what it was. It will either make for an amazing restoration, or it will be the nail in the coffin as being too much effort and prompting the purchase of a new car.

Eh, it's shifting the pendulum back a bit I'll agree, but it's hardly a recreation of Vanilla. If they were trying to do that, they'd be scrapping non mythic raids for example. If anything their plan seems to be to reinvent their open world with more events, rares etc and they feel (correctly or not) that that will work better without flying. Removing flight though is hardly them grasping back at the 'glory days' of vanilla. Misguided or not, it's just an attempt to breathe life into the world that will either work or blow up in their faces.

[Sweetpeaz]

Sweetpeaz, I find it hard to believe anyone will quit the game because of no flying IN DRAENOR (you can still fly everywhere else).

As for controlling the message, although I agree they could be more "professional", I find it refreshing to see developers act human, passionate, enthusiastic, and inevitably make mistakes because of it.

The community's attempts at cornering Blizzard doesn't make them communicate more - it makes them resort to talking like lawyers.

If you want to kill any warmth in the interaction between a company and its customers, you're succeeding.
You reap what you sow.

Simple question. Did you like IoT or TI? Would you like an entire expansion like that? If you do, that's great. I loathed those two places, so I am not in favor of it.

Edit: Thank you for being pleasant in your replies. It helps move the conversation forward, even if we don't agree!

[Florena]

Once people get to max level the game is open. You can do dungeons, farm materials, level professions, play the AH, raid, PVP. You can do anything you want.

Flight isn't what you do all the time, it's how you enable that content. By taking away flight, you aren't preventing people from doing those things, you are merely dictating how they must be accomplished. If they have said that travel will be updated to not penalize people from doing what they want, then why not enable it?
Can you not see the contradiction in those two items?

It's a cash grab because it extends content. Do you realize that if you make subs last 1 month longer that means ~$57 million more in their pockets?

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if they sold the flight tome in the store for $50.

- - - Updated - - -



Then I would say it's better to not say anything than to create false hope and PR messaging issues.

They stated their plans at the time, which was no flying until 6.1 and plans change. I would argue it would be WORSE for them to just not tell anyone at all and let it spread from word of mouth in beta when flight trainers are never introduced to Draenor, so at least if there does end up being no flying people won't be blindsided by it. Or at least not those that follow what blizzard says.

[Nayaga]

I give you 100 words with actual arguments and logic in them, you give me 20 words worth of opinionated statements.
Seems legit.

I doubt you even know what logic really is. I explained it earlier.

I doubt you really want a real debate when you say:

I have yet to see a SINGLE reasonable, logical argument towards keeping flying AS IT IS.

If you want a real debate, I'd be glad to have one with you, but you need to actually address the points I give.

What to give it a try?

[Nurvus]

Simple question. Did you like IoT or TI? Would you like an entire expansion like that? If you do, that's great. I loathed those two places, so I am not in favor of it.

Edit: Thank you for being pleasant in your replies. It helps move the conversation forward, even if we don't agree!

The only 4 things I dislike about TI and IoT are:
- Poorly designed Guard AI (TI-only)
- Exploits to attack players in "safe" areas without getting attacked by Guards (TI-only)
- Loot Pinata trivializing 2 tiers of content (TI-only).
- Being isolated, "special places" with "special rules" rather than just part of the world.

The real question is: Is lack of flying the reason you dislike IoT or TI?

I doubt you even know what logic really is.

If you want a real debate, I'd be glad to have one with you, but you need to actually address the points I give.

What to give it a try?

So you want to have a "real debate" with someone you look down on?
It sounds to me you prefer rethoric.

Again, there is a fundamental difference between what "pro-fliers" want and what "pro-fixing" want.
Pro-fliers want their convenience, regardless of how that affects others' gameplay.
Pro-fixing want everything to be fair.

There is really not much else to debate here, other than personal opinions, personal gameplay preferences, and pointless claims of what WoW should be about.

I just want everything I do in the game to be worth it.
I want flying to stay in the game, be fun and awesome.
I just don't want flying to ruin fun for anyone by making every other way of doing things flat out inefficient, pointless, trivial, etc.

Is removal of flying the way to go? Not really, but if I'm okay leveling without flying, I can wait a little while until Blizzard finds a way to properly implement flying.

You don't agree with a fix because you see no issues with flying?
Then what's the point in a discussion? It'll go nowhere.

[Nayaga]

So you want to have a "real debate" with someone you look down on?
It sounds to me you prefer rethoric.

I want a real debate, care to try?