Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Maneo]

Ah, I see the problem, you actually still have some faith in Blizzard left. You can beg for all the changes to make low level mobs meaningful all you want, that's not how Blizzard works. Blizzard does small, iterative changes, it takes them generations to work out the sweeping sorts of changes you're looking for. The game will be dead before we get to that kind of massive overhaul. Now, if you want to make some suggestions for Titan on the assumption that it will be WoW2 or something similar then by all means. However, unless Blizzard pulls a miracle out of their ass, there are never going to be any changes to make low-level content meaningful enough to justify these changes to flying. So, for now, I'll take flying as it has been.

I am sad to say I agree. Blizz hasn't really ever been ground breaking or innovative.

This is incredibly funny.
Nevermind the massive overhauls WoW had.

I'm curious, since you said "that's not how Blizzard works"... would you please be kind enough to point an MMORPG company that works differently (better)?
Forget better... just give me a company that does the same "small, iterative changes" or even BOTHERS working out "the sweeping sorts of changes" I'm looking for.

It's not that I have faith in Blizzard.
It's more like Blizzard is the only MMORPG company currently worth having faith in.
(Carbine hasn't had time to show its colors)

You know what I can understand that Blizz is the premier MMO company.

That being said I think they have been on top for to long and being in that position has done nothing to encourage in innovation.

The sweeping changes we need won't happen in WoD I can guarantee that because beta is live and blizz uses beta to tweak no sweeping changes. That being said just give me flight and I will happily resub and buy mounts... and not grace the forums with any further bitching about blizz.... unless they do something else stupid = )

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Only time will tell. Blizzard is quite slow with making decisions and changes.

Looking at your list of six (6) points, it would be quite easily coded to the system. Just some terrain buffs on roads, phasing gathering nodes and changing mob credit tags since that already exists (Timeless Isle). Most likely the biggest job would be on dazed -system since they'd need to check every single mob in-game.

But nothing too hard.

Well I make this personal promise I will keep up on this until the release of WoD and if they institute maybe 4 out of the 6 I will give WoD try = )

I do really miss my spectral tiger = (

[Nurvus]

Actually I can answer that for you (cause mind you Wildstar was supposed to have flight initially)

1. Playing WoW while leveling is fine (well the first time) , but at max level when the max level content is done (a month or two), you are left with things like dailies, pet hunting, farming, hunting rares archeology (OMG w/out flight root canal would be more fun) etc. Honestly pretty much all boring and tedious tasks w/flight however those tasks become tolerable and in some cases even fun. Hell one of my favorite thing to do was throw on some tunes and fly around gather mats to unwind after a shit day. Can't do that w/out flight cause you are constantly dealing with those non challenging mobs (kinda hard to relax when you are annoyed).

First, what I'm trying to show you is that flying greatly contributes to you perceiving those tasks as tedious.
How tedious is it to be an explorer in WildStar? Hop, hop, double hop, hop, hop... hop... hop. You reach the destination? Job experience...
Second, you feeling annoyed and those mobs feeling boring and non-challenging IS part of the problem and needs to be dealt with.
The solution is NOT giving you a "get-away" ticket.
Again, I'm not against flying - just against overpowered flying. I made a whole suggestion on flying in "The Future of Mounts (Constructive)"

2. Now regarding Wildstar
a. No Dismount mechanics from mobs
b. All mobs drop something of use or they are tied to a challenge that gives rewards
c. The shared tag system (similar to timeless Isle) makes things like challenges possible where in WoW you are always competing with the next person, with no reason to work with them (since wow punishes your for grouping) - I agree WoW should be like this.
d. Ground travel in Wildstar is dynamic with things like speed boost and double jump. - the speed boost is a silly mechanic. Sometimes it feels like I'm playing Sonic Online. But I like Sonic, so I guess it's not so bad? Nonetheless, this goes back to what I said about relative perspective.
e. Mobs even at max level are challenging in Wildstar - Something WoW needs to work on. Overpowered flying is not the solution.
c. Wildstar has barely been out a month and already released a content patch and say they it all planned out for the next 16 months. WoW your lucky if it is every 3-4 months. - yes, more content is what most MMOs do, but it only works while the gameplay/eye candy is fresh. Get back in touch once the gameplay sinks in. GW2 say hi.
f. I know I already mentioned challenges but I felt the need to mention it again cause not all challenges are related to mobs. - sure, but WoW also has them. Just needs better tuning.
g They have a convenient travel system w/the exception of a couple areas. - again, convenient. The whole problem is wanting to skip stuff. A portal doesn't fix the problem, just avoids it.

As far as my classifications of the majority of anti flight folk, I haven't seen much to dispute it, and I have been here for awhile.

I wasn't criticizing your classifications, but the underlying perspective.
I doubt there are people who WANT the game to be tedious.
You could've said there are people who SEEM to enjoy grindy games, or something.

It's just that the way you put it made it sound incredibly biased, which is ironic since you gave off the impression you're trying to "analyze" others with a neutral stance.

[Maneo]

First, what I'm trying to show you is that flying greatly contributes to you perceiving those tasks as tedious.
How tedious is it to be an explorer in WildStar? Hop, hop, double hop, hop, hop... hop... hop. You reach the destination? Job experience...
Second, you feeling annoyed and those mobs feeling boring and non-challenging IS part of the problem and needs to be dealt with.
The solution is NOT giving you a "get-away" ticket.
Again, I'm not against flying - just against overpowered flying. I made a whole suggestion on flying in "The Future of Mounts (Constructive)"





I wasn't criticizing your classifications, but the underlying perspective.
I doubt there are people who WANT the game to be tedious.
You could've said there are people who SEEM to enjoy grindy games, or something.

It's just that the way you put it made it sound incredibly biased, which is ironic since you gave off the impression you're trying to "analyze" others with a neutral stance.

I can agree that adding flight adds to the contribution of tasks feeling tedious (dailies) but lets be honest farming, archeology, etc etc ... WoW has many tedious things that are content and with flight they are less tedious and maybe even fun.

So I don't really know where to go from there.

I am all for adding something to flight, to not make it trump ground travel. I had a idea where you could only mount up on your flying mount from certain locations.. could dismount anywhere.. but if you wanted to get back on your flier you would need to hoof it to another one of those points... Hell they could use it as a excuse to encourage WPVP you want that take off point you are going to have to fight for it.

And yeah I could have worded my classification of the anti flight folk better ... but I didn't sorry = (

I just want to point out I have had to productive talks w/two anti or at the very least limiting flight people ... So I wanted to thank those two = )

Oh and another reason why I enjoy Wildstar even w/out flight ...... this is a biggie wait for it....





They have CHUA!!!!!!!!!!

[Calibar]

A lot of what I see from the pro flying arguments are about time constraints and being inefficient. A lot of you sound like wow is something you have to do. Like there is a job at hand and you have to complete it in the most precise and effective and efficient way possible. When was the last time you just logged in and played the game for what it is. A game.

[Tholl]

I'm inclined to agree that there isn't much point in arguing anymore.

Once the no flight hits Blizzard in the pocket book they'll fold anyway.

That's like saying people who smoke Menthols wont smoke anymore if they got rid of them.

Face it, 99% (And yes, it is a made up number) play because they are addicted to the game. They have time and emotion attached to characters/gear/guild mates etc. People will complain of class change, game mechanics, lore, models etc, and will still play even though they are red in the face from complaining. You know why?

.
.
.
.
.

Addiction.

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A lot of what I see from the pro flying arguments are about time constraints and being inefficient. A lot of you sound like wow is something you have to do. Like there is a job at hand and you have to complete it in the most precise and effective and efficient way possible. When was the last time you just logged in and played the game for what it is. A game.

Well put. So many people treat it as a job.

[Ordinator]

Hell, I would think you would know that considering how into Morrowind you appear to be.

Morrowind's my favorite game because of the immersion factor. Do you know the only method of travel in Morrowind? Walking and a couple travel hubs that are only connected to certain other hubs. The game developers didn't strive to make things as simple as possible.

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A lot of what I see from the pro flying arguments are about time constraints and being inefficient. A lot of you sound like wow is something you have to do. Like there is a job at hand and you have to complete it in the most precise and effective and efficient way possible. When was the last time you just logged in and played the game for what it is. A game.

I've said it a bunch. Convenience is all they want.

[zorkuus]

Do you live in this thread?

[Lincoln Lawyer]

Morrowind's my favorite game because of the immersion factor. Do you know the only method of travel in Morrowind? Walking and a couple travel hubs that are only connected to certain other hubs. The game developers didn't strive to make things as simple as possible.

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I've said it a bunch. Convenience is all they want.

You're ridiculous there's a guy 2 pages back, actually, 2 guys, who decimated your argument letter by letter and all you do is repeat the same "I've said it and I will say it again" bullshit. It doesn't matter how many times you "say" it, if I go back 30 pages I see people giving you lessons in self-control and you ignore them cause you don't have anything to actually say worthwhile as a comeback. Just fucking stop already.

[Maneo]

A lot of what I see from the pro flying arguments are about time constraints and being inefficient. A lot of you sound like wow is something you have to do. Like there is a job at hand and you have to complete it in the most precise and effective and efficient way possible. When was the last time you just logged in and played the game for what it is. A game.

If WoW didn't litter the game with so much tedious BS it wouldn't be problem.

So you want to spend your time doing the parts of the game you enjoy... but to do that you have to get through all the tedious shit (and there is a lot of it). So you want to get through the tedious parts quickly and efficiently as possible...

The funny thing is Blizz even understands this .. hence everyone gets a free level 90... <shrug>

That's like saying people who smoke Menthols wont smoke anymore if they got rid of them.

Face it, 99% (And yes, it is a made up number) play because they are addicted to the game. They have time and emotion attached to characters/gear/guild mates etc. People will complain of class change, game mechanics, lore, models etc, and will still play even though they are red in the face from complaining. You know why?

.
.
.
.
.

Addiction.

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Hi my name is Maneo and I am a addict. I haven't played WoW for 98 days, I take each day one a time it gets easier as each day passes... I still miss my spectral tiger... but I can be strong... I know I can with the support of you fine people.

[Ordinator]

You're ridiculous there's a guy 2 pages back, actually, 2 guys, who decimated your argument letter by letter and all you do is repeat the same "I've said it and I will say it again" bullshit. It doesn't matter how many times you "say" it, if I go back 30 pages I see people giving you lessons in self-control and you ignore them cause you don't have anything to actually say worthwhile as a comeback. Just fucking stop already.

And the problem is you have zero authority to say people "decimate" arguments. All you have is a biased viewpoint and that's it. Self control does nothing to stop the majority of players from abusing what flying offers. So tell me how there is more to it than people just wanting the convenience of flying to stay intact, and it's at all healthy for the game if people cling this tightly to simple matter of convenience.

[Maneo]

You're ridiculous there's a guy 2 pages back, actually, 2 guys, who decimated your argument letter by letter and all you do is repeat the same "I've said it and I will say it again" bullshit. It doesn't matter how many times you "say" it, if I go back 30 pages I see people giving you lessons in self-control and you ignore them cause you don't have anything to actually say worthwhile as a comeback. Just fucking stop already.

Yeah him and Mr. Sith Hamster share a brain... you could literally switch their posts out with one another.

And the problem is you have zero authority to say people "decimate" arguments. All you have is a biased viewpoint and that's it. Self control does nothing to stop the majority of players from abusing what flying offers. So tell me how there is more to it than people just wanting the convenience of flying to stay intact, and it's at all healthy for the game if people cling this tightly to simple matter of convenience.

Let me ask you this. When no flight goes live and 2-3 months goes by and the quality of the game has not improved, with everyone sitting in capital cities and garrisons will you come back to these pages and create a thread saying how wrong you were (this applies to all you anti flight people) or will you just jump on the bandwagon for the next thing blizz wants to fuck with.

I will say this now .. When I get my free week in WoD I will play it, and if I enjoy and the subscription base rises and everything is great in WoD and the majority are happy having their asses nailed to the ground I will come back to these forums and say I was wrong.

[Deleted]

Just think about it.
a) Why is it that playing WoW without flying is FINE while leveling, but suddenly becomes "unbearable" at max level?
Even better:
Do you - nowadays - even consider not using flying mounts in Outland from 60-69? You didn't have flying before level 70 in TBC.
Do you - nowadays - even consider not using flying mounts in Northrend from 70-77? You couldn't get Cold-Weather Flying in WotLK before level 78.
b) Why is it that playing WildStar without flying is FINE, but WoW is boring/annoying without it (at max level)?

The moment you were given Flying at level X, you clung to it like a drug.
To be honest I'm surprised people didn't complain about not being able to level in MoP with flying considering Cataclysm allowed it (I'm joking - ofcourse they complained).

The fact that you seem to have been playing WoW for a long time, but can't wrap your mind around why those questions are absurd is mind-boggling to me.

You absolutely cannot compare how content feels when it's new and exciting with how it feels several months later during the same expansion, or several years later, after one or more expansions.

While I didn't have flying before 70 or 78, I also hadn't done those quests several times before or spent a couple of years on those continents. It was a completely different experience than any of my alts could have now, and there is nothing Blizzard could do to recreate the excitement and wonder I felt when I first went through those zones. And the good thing is that they understand this, which is why they made leveling faster and lowered the level requirements for flying.

Nothing is preventing you from not using your flying mounts in Outland or Northrend when you level your next alt. However, you also need to understand that other people's priorities may differ from your own. When I roll an alt, I don't do it because I want to purify hellboar meat again, but because I want to experience current content with a different class. Flying is a useful tool which allows me to level efficiently and reach relevant content faster.

In conclusion, it's a completely contrived argument which doesn't take into account the fact that stale content isn't experienced the same way as new content, and that other people don't pay their subs to act as props populating the world for your own personal enjoyment.

[rebecca191]

A lot of what I see from the pro flying arguments are about time constraints and being inefficient. A lot of you sound like wow is something you have to do. Like there is a job at hand and you have to complete it in the most precise and effective and efficient way possible. When was the last time you just logged in and played the game for what it is. A game.

That's a little funny coming from the side that refuses to choose what they claim is more fun, over efficiency.

[Ordinator]

That's a little funny coming from the side that refuses to choose what they claim is more fun, over efficiency.

Being that this is an MMO, I put competition first. Be it PvP, gathering, questing. Without flying, you're hindered in most every area of the game. But it is an MMO, and I want to see people in the world. No flying is a win-win. People are back in the actual world, and on the same competitive level.

So lets run through this again. You can't choose to not fly, the world isn't made to compensate that play style. In WoD, it is.

I know i'm going to have to say all this again, and again.

[rebecca191]

Being that this is an MMO, I put competition first. Be it PvP, gathering, questing. Without flying, you're hindered in most every area of the game. But it is an MMO, and I want to see people in the world. No flying is a win-win. People are back in the actual world, and on the same competitive level.

So lets run through this again. You can't choose to not fly, the world isn't made to compensate that play style. In WoD, it is.

I know i'm going to have to say all this again, and again.

Not everything in this game is a competition. Leveling your 10th alt isn't. Archeology isn't. Many quests are not. Many achievements are not. Etc etc etc. If you love to see the world on the ground what's stopping you from leveling an alt that way or something later in the expac? Nothing, except your own mental block.

Incidentally, my servers that I played on (I transferred for raiding purposes a few times so this was consistent across servers, some were US PvE some were US PvP) had the most players active in the world in BC and WotLK. The majority of those players were max level and a large number had fast flying. I saw people all the time then. I saw more of them flying around then I ever did on the ground in vanilla, probably because THE POPULATION WAS HIGHER. A declining overall population combined with less popular content is why the world is empty. Not flying. The world was plenty active during BC and WotLK. The game currently has less subscribers than it did in the final quarter before the BC launch. That says a lot about why the world is so empty now.

[Ordinator]

Not everything in this game is a competition. Leveling your 10th alt isn't. Archeology isn't. Many quests are not. Many achievements are not. Etc etc etc. If you love to see the world on the ground what's stopping you from leveling an alt that way or something later in the expac? Nothing, except your own mental block.

This argument might be valid if they were taking away flying from the entire game, but they aren't. Leveling your 10th ult can still be done with flying. Archeology in its majority can still be done with flying. Nothing that you can fly in now is being taken from you like many of you are acting.

[rpdrichard]

First, what I'm trying to show you is that flying greatly contributes to you perceiving those tasks as tedious.
How tedious is it to be an explorer in WildStar? Hop, hop, double hop, hop, hop... hop... hop. You reach the destination? Job experience...
Second, you feeling annoyed and those mobs feeling boring and non-challenging IS part of the problem and needs to be dealt with.
The solution is NOT giving you a "get-away" ticket.
Again, I'm not against flying - just against overpowered flying. I made a whole suggestion on flying in "The Future of Mounts (Constructive)"





I wasn't criticizing your classifications, but the underlying perspective.
I doubt there are people who WANT the game to be tedious.
You could've said there are people who SEEM to enjoy grindy games, or something.

It's just that the way you put it made it sound incredibly biased, which is ironic since you gave off the impression you're trying to "analyze" others with a neutral stance.

You're forgetting that some people is only interested on instanced content in PvE (raids/dungeons) and PvP (arenas/bgs/Rbgs), in order to do what they want more efficiently they have to gather mats for food, flasks, armor/weapon crafting, enchantments, potions and similar stuff. Thanks to flying doing this tasks is bearable for the people once they reach max level so they can focus on the part of the game they enjoy the most, if you take away flying you're screwing a lot of people (if not all cause some will be ok with this change only for a couple of months) and making them lose their time on something they don't enjoy. Some people will perceive the world content as filler and boring after they reach max level no matter what you do. With this change blizz and some people here wants to force everyone else to play the game the way they think is the "right one", and that do is bad for the health of the game in the long term.

[Barkloud]

Ultimately, if no flying is the reason you are leaving a game (which is a very minor piece of the game) you should probably just quit anyway. Otherwise, just get over it. I'm happy to explore content.

This is frustrating to read. I am tired of hearing people who like flying do not like exploring. I think those who fly like it more. No flying is a gate. We are going from 310% speed to 100% speed.

For you math majors, that means if we currently spend 10 minutes per hour traveling that will change to 30 minutes per hour of traveling to do what we used to.

50% of our time spent in game will be spent traveling.

How many posts have their been in Alpha and Beta about how bad transportation is???

This..... is..... a...... gate....... It has nothing to do with game play. It has to do with developing less content.

I cannot believe how many of you buy blizz's PR shenanigans. It is no wonder they are so comfortable lying at Blizzcon.

[Drytoast]

A lot of what I see from the pro flying arguments are about time constraints and being inefficient. A lot of you sound like wow is something you have to do. Like there is a job at hand and you have to complete it in the most precise and effective and efficient way possible. When was the last time you just logged in and played the game for what it is. A game.

When you spend 3 nights a week raiding hardcore shit, yet still need to do other tasks like auction house shit, farming mats...doing your dailies and every other fucking thing that's a time sink...let me know.

The LAST thing I want is blizzard to make that other bullshit more time consuming, tedious or a pain in the ass.

[Belisaurio]

This is frustrating to read. I am tired of hearing people who like flying do not like exploring. I think those who fly like it more. No flying is a gate. We are going from 310% speed to 100% speed.

For you math majors, that means if we currently spend 10 minutes per hour traveling that will change to 30 minutes per hour of traveling to do what we used to.

50% of our time spent in game will be spent traveling.

How many posts have their been in Alpha and Beta about how bad transportation is???

This..... is..... a...... gate....... It has nothing to do with game play. It has to do with developing less content.

I cannot believe how many of you buy blizz's PR shenanigans. It is no wonder they are so comfortable lying at Blizzcon.

It can happen more things in 30 minutes than in 10 minutes. If in 30 minutes nothing happens, then it's Blizzards fault and not the "no flying" argument fault.
If you don't have any hope in Blizzard and his design team, I understand that. If Blizz creates a good cotnetn for this "50% more traveling", then we will win A LOT of content. If not, I'm with you, time to unsub again.

Something related to travel: if you have a mountain in front of you, with flying you can skip it (and scan if there is something that you need in this mountain, try to understand that scan it's not the same like "explore"), without flying you need to "explore" (climb, run, skip mob, use utility skills, maybe PvP, maybe Rares, nodes if you are lucky, etc...).

And of course, its about Gameplay. If you design something in WoW, it's to improve the gameplay experience, because the gameplay experience is the only thing that chains us to pay every month. So creating something boring it will be a big hit in Blizzards economy (again...). And without flying mounts you can design ALOT more things (like I explained in a lot of posts before) than the same content.
It's a lot more eazy to design new content for an free XY map with Z than for a free XYZ map (ergo, more content!).

When you spend 3 nights a week raiding hardcore shit, yet still need to do other tasks like auction house shit, farming mats...doing your dailies and every other fucking thing that's a time sink...let me know.

Then complain about that you are forced to spend a lot of time doing burocrating things andthe poor design of pre/after-raid mechanics. Not about flying.
I understand your point btw...