Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Maneo]

I think that would look goofy.

Can't argue that .. but then again so do critters with big ass wings running around on the ground = )

[Walter]

You offer a refreshing view of your own playstyle, Walter, one that was deemed impossible before in this thread and was simply put aside as unreasonable. Once more it shows that there is no "correct" or "perfect" way to play this game. Trying to force your own playstyle on a person whose interests lay elsewhere in the game isn't helpful and most likely will end up in that person liking the game less. Especially in an RPG it's important you can choose your own way to approach certain situations or the world as a whole.

I agree. When it comes to anything, video games included, it is important to understand there are a myriad of angles and perspectives. I'm sure just by saying "I don't mind if flight is entirely removed", I would be ignored by some. However, I am not here to lobby for its removal, nor its retention. I am simply pointing out there there is no right, and no wrong in anything said in this thread. Right and wrong are personal and subjective terms, held only to the person on the receiving end. When it comes to flying in 6.1, I believe Blizzard will patch it back in simply based on how the populous responded to MoP leveling. All we had was 5 little levels, and people were on fire to have a Tome of Flight added for alts in MoP because grinding alts was "unbearable".

I can only imagine what 10 levels, and no flying at all when you hit 100 will bring. For me, I will be unaffected since I prefer my ground mounts, and use them regardless of how other people play or raid. I am not in a race, and since I cannot use my flying mounts inside the raids, they have zero bearing on my ability to clear a raid and play competitively should I choose to do so. So, the 4 month stretch between launch and 6.1 will be littered with level 100 players in the first 5 days. Players will utilize garrisons to stay competitive with gathering, heroic gear, and professional crafting. Since the 10 workers at the garrison will work and run heroics around the clock, even when we are not logged in, there won't be a need for flying. And since there is no flying inside the instances, flying will not "gimp" anyone. So, it is my belief that flight will be unlocked in 6.1, and will not have any bearing on competitive raiding.

- - - Updated - - -

Again a very well thought out and objective post... I didn't want to quote the whole thing due to its length but I wanted to quote this.

I have always said even in the beginning that WoW w/out flight could work for the majority of the players. If they made the right changes to the game to implement it. I have been discussing with my wife how I would achieve such a task if I was the grand leader of Blizz for the next expac.

--- snipped ---

institute some of those changes before a subterranean expac .. and I think you might actually be able to get away with not allowing flight in the next expac but that is just my opinion.

While I admire your enthusiasm, I feel when it comes to flying, or no flying, there are 3 types of players:

1) Those who will only accept flying without any restrictions
2) Those who would accept flying with conditions (i.e. - unlock in 6.1, add some danger, slow it down, lower the ceiling, etc)
3) Those who will only accept flying being completely removed

Blizzard cannot make all 3 happy. So, they are taking a calculated risk to see if what they are producing is engaging enough to keep people glued to the ground, on the edge of their seats, and constantly looking for more. While I am confident they could accomplish such a feat, I am still curious to see if the live version delivers on the scale which they claim. Flying, or no flying, if the content itself is poor, then flying over it makes no sense to me. I would rather take my money and my interest in MMO-RPGs elsewhere and find a game that can deliver compelling stuff even if they have no mounts at all.

[quras]

This doesn't mean flying mounts are meaningless, but when I examine other MMOs of similar stature, there are no flying mounts to be seen.

You lost me there a little but I I'm going to focus on this: there are no other current MMo's in the league of wow. None can come close to wow in subs and that is a general number that is looked at to compare similar stature. Wow has lost more subs than all other MMOs have probably ever had - combined.

while I do not think flying is in any way a singular feature that brought wow to it's success, it was a contributor to it's success and no some mediocre feature to be skipped over. Otherwise the entire world would never have been redesigned to allow it. It would not have taken 2 expansions for blizzard to come to that conclusion if flying was hurting the game. At least I'd like to think there not that stupid.

However, maybe if those other games had flying at max level, along with a good story, game play and content, similar to what we have had in the past, they would also see some of the same success WOW has had.

[Walter]

You lost me there a little but I I'm going to focus on this: there are no other current MMo's in the league of wow. None can come close to wow in subs and that is a general number that is looked at to compare similar stature. Wow has lost more subs than all other MMOs have probably ever had - combined.

while I do not think flying is in any way a singular feature that brought wow to it's success, it was a contributor to it's success and no some mediocre feature to be skipped over. Otherwise the entire world would never have been redesigned to allow it. It would not have taken 2 expansions for blizzard to come to that conclusion if flying was hurting the game. At least I'd like to think there not that stupid.

However, maybe if those other games had flying at max level, along with a good story, game play and content, similar to what we have had in the past, they would also see some of the same success WOW has had.

I would have to disagree. When it comes to WoW, if we take an honest look, regardless of our personal opinion on the matter, we can see that:

- Vanilla came at a time when the MMORPG genre needed a hero. WoW picked up the reigns and rode into TBC with close to 8 million subs after just 2 years. There was only flight paths and ground mounts.

- TBC came in with a thundering boom, carrying the saga even farther than before. Boasting numbers upwards of 10M by its conclusion. Flight was only available at the end of TBC, and could only be used in Outlands. Some people, myself included, could never afford flying. Flight was only needed to reach end game content in Netherstorm.

- Wrath came in, bringing the great villain of WC3, and its Frozen Throne expansion, ushering WoW to heights of near 12.5M players. Flight was initially only available at lvl cap, but a tome later allowed flying for alts at lvl 77 to make Storm Peaks easier to quest through. This is when I could finally afford flight. The only place flight was needed was in Storm Peaks, and specifically Ulduar, and its surrounding dungeons.

- Cataclysm showed up, changed the entire face of EK and Kalimdor. The landscape was forever changed, and the skies were unlocked to lvl 60+. Flight was also dropped to lvl 60 in TBC and 70 in Wrath. Flight was needed because of zones like Deepholm, and instances like Throne of the Four Winds and Vortex Pinnacle (entrances in the skies). After a year of Dragon Soul, subs dipped to 9.1M.

- Then came Pandaria. We reached back up for 10M, and have slowly descended to 7M, or lower (since the last given figures). We didn't get flying again until lvl 90, just 5 levels from our top in Cataclysm. Flight was only really needed for the dailies in the Valley (up on the hill), and direct route flights out to the Timeless Isle for some free gear. Aside from rep and coin farmers, most players took the gear, and the burdens, spent a few hours playing on the aisle, and then headed into raids to gear up farther. While there were some no fly zones, even as a fan of ground mounts, I was not impressed by the content the isle held.

Through all of this, flying has really only ever been a fast, and convenient method to move from A to B. Though it is nice for some to be able to skip over the old content and trash mobs they have already completed, I'm not entirely convinced that flying played a major role in any aspect of this game other than for speed, and convenience. Had flight never been introduced in TBC, WoW would likely be just as popular, with just as many fans, raiders, and pvpers as it has today. After 10 years, and 100M accounts come and gone, and 7M (as of last count) still standing, I'm not convinced flying played a major role in anything.

Take for example, the empty zones of the world. Between Battlemasters, Dungeon Finder, BG finder, Raid Finder, Arena Finder, and other conveniences, people no longer have to go out to the entrance of the instance. In 1.6, when we got battlemasters, you no longer had to go to the entrance of the BG. In 3.2, we got the dungeon finder, meaning no more LFG in chat, running to the summoning stone, and then hoping your whole party showed up. In 4.3, raiding got a similar facelift with easy mode raiding, but raiding none the less. Each time a new instance queue came, people stopped going to the entrance, and started sitting in the cities. Banks, AH, mailboxes, fishing holes, etc. Trade chat jammed up with people between queue pops. The world was now empty, and the city was full. The only people left in the world, were the side of the populous doing Archaeology, farming, gathering, pet battles, dailies, and questing. Flying was little more than a convenience for these things, but hardly a requirement.

All in all, the reason WoW is popular is because it was in the right place, at the right time, with the right fans. It had less to do with flying mounts and more to do with having millions of fans all over the world who played Star Craft/Brood War, Diablo, Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction, and Warcraft 1-3 with expansions. While I can see how much flying means to some players, and how attached they are to their mounts, and their playstyle, it is important to remember in the end, it is still a game, that was built from a fanbase, who played things in the Blizzard Universe... without flying mounts. Let's not over dramatize their importance on the game as a whole, but feel free to dramatize their importance on your individual game, and playstyle. Again, I am neither for, nor against the removal of flight. I am more interested in the truth about what flying is responsible for, and how compelling the game should be without it until 6.1. Without compelling gameplay, what are we really flying over?

[Kowloon]

After this recent beta wave of invites, I finally got one. I was pretty excited to traverse the new/available zones of WOD on my ground mount for the first 20 minutes but after that it became a terrible experience. There's no immersion in rolling snow hills and cliffs a la Frostfire Ridge. I've never felt so bored in my life while traveling in WoW. At least with flying it was double the speed of ground mount so you could get from point A to point B fast but my goodness… It's terrible. Additionally, from a birds eye view, while flying on a mount that is in my control, I actually have a more interesting time memorizing the landscape/enjoying the landscape in it's whole view. I took WOD flight paths as well thinking maybe it would be better but alas… It's bad.

[SL1200]

How do the flight paths work? Are they efficient?

[urasim]

How do the flight paths work? Are they efficient?

They used to be shit, but they improved them a bit. I'll post more when I get to 96 later today if the realms are up tonight that is...

[Doomchicken]

How do the flight paths work? Are they efficient?

I haven't been able to play much beta. The longest path I was able to take was between garrison (northwest most of map) and just outside of Karabor and that was 1 minute 50 seconds. Keep in mind that was without guild perks.

[Maneo]

I haven't been able to play much beta. The longest path I was able to take was between garrison (northwest most of map) and just outside of Karabor and that was 1 minute 50 seconds. Keep in mind that was without guild perks.

I hate to say it but they have been saying flight paths will be improved since Vanilla, I wouldn't expect anything but minor improvements in WoD for whatever reason.

Wow this is the first time I have logged on and not had like 8 pages to catch up on..

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...rvertype/page2

I appears it is approx 25% want flying gone 25% don't care and 50% want it to stay.

Granted not as many people have voted yet but it is interesting to see the shift from the first poll they had here.

[Noybbs]

When examining a topic of discussion, it is important for me to view things from every possible angle, including angles I personally would never view. While I admire the pro-flight crowd for their tenacity, and their desire to retain the use of a key feature (for them) in the new zones of the coming expansion, I am also on the side of the playerbase who is not bothered by its temporary, or permanent removal. While I would miss the times of speed, and convenience, neither benefit truly outweighs my experience in the game. I would remove all mounts from the game if it meant I could get overly engaging and immersive environments and gameplay. Before I could fly, I remember being so happy to have my epic land mount for the speed increase, and then stacking it with my Carrot on a Stick trinket, and my On A Pale Horse buff as a Frost DK (Before the Cata redesign).

The ground game was all I knew. This doesn't mean flying mounts are meaningless, but when I examine other MMOs of similar stature, there are no flying mounts to be seen. Even in Dungeons and Dragons Online, a game with Dragons in the title, you don't see flying mounts. Had WoW never been given flying mounts, most pro-fliers would never know what they are missing in the skies. But, since Blizzard not only added flying at the end of TBC, and Wrath, and MoP, and even redesigned all of Azeroth to accommodate flight in the old world, trying to re-bottle that genie is going to be a tricky feat. This leads me to believe that flying will be patched in with 6.1. After several months at level cap, on the ground, doing the same old "end game questing", I think players in general will likely begin to miss the convenience of flight. As for me, I will still be on the ground.

I raid for fun, not for competition. And since there is no flying in raids anyways, I am hardly handicapping myself on a ground mount. Also, since Garrisons and Followers will supplement my farming, gear gathering, and professions, even by not using a flying mount, I could still keep up competitively if I choose to. In the end, I enjoy the World of Warcraft, and have for a very long time. I would never encourage the exclusion of flight from the game, but in the end, the game itself is more important than how I travel within Azeroth. If and when the content becomes too boring to bear, I will likely let my paid time dwindle down, hand off my possessions to close friends and guildmates, and open a new chapter in my life, and a new game with it. After all, if the content is boring, the story is poor, and I have nothing better to do than avoid the trash in the game, I have to ask myself, "Why am I still playing?".

Mister reasonable, you’re trying too hard. Your pompous wall of text is dripping with self importance.

[quras]

How do the flight paths work? Are they efficient?

Not so much. No.

They have made some very slight FP changes but overall they did not remove the scenic tour or make them anywhere near as efficient as max level flying when you could do it yourself.

In comparison, they are still AFK flight paths that do more harm then anything they actually add to the game.

A needed design while leveling that still puts you AFK and out of the game but you can see they will be a waste of time at max level.

[Maneo]

I am kinda said this thread is dead.

My internet has been absolute crap that past couple days so I can't play games watch movies whatever. All it is really good for right now is email and message board type things.

This thread was providing me so much entertainment

[Walter]

Mister reasonable, you’re trying too hard. Your pompous wall of text is dripping with self importance.

I am happy to discuss the topic at hand with you, but I have no desire to belittle anyone. Should you decide you want to have a fair, and honest discussion, I'll be here. In the meantime, I stand by every word I wrote. As someone who is neither for, nor against flying, I feel my objective opinion holds merit. It is not more important than yours, or less valuable either. I would rather discuss the topic with logic, than emotion.

[quras]

I would have to disagree.

Noted

When it comes to WoW, if we take an honest look, regardless of our personal opinion on the matter, we can see that:

What we see is flying has been a huge part of the game for 7+ years.

You'd have to be a special kind of fool to think it's not important to a large number of the playerbase no matter how you play the game. Flying has been the single most requested feature besides dual spec (and maybe the vaporware known as a dance studio).

Flying is not something to trivialize at this point in the games life cycle to push the agenda to slow down consumer content consumption or push the mediocre content known as TI.

I am happy to discuss the topic at hand with you, but I have no desire to belittle anyone. Should you decide you want to have a fair, and honest discussion, I'll be here. In the meantime, I stand by every word I wrote. As someone who is neither for, nor against flying, I feel my objective opinion holds merit. It is not more important than yours, or less valuable either. I would rather discuss the topic with logic, than emotion.

For me the, "I don't care" or "I'm not choosing a side" is rather worthless. So no, your opinion is not all that important because it leads nowhere in the debate. You don't care one way or the other.

Hard for an artist (much less anyone else) to grow when someone looks at their work and says, "I don't like or dislike it." It's a worthless option and stifles growth and if you have no passion for the debate (read emotion) I'm not sure why your here other than to just hear yourself talk.

Oh but thats right, you don't care either way.

[Mafic]

The release of the new zones and quests show that more is the same which leads to more questions than answers. And they are going to try to milk this by delaying 6.1 as long as possible?

Blizzard is behind with an expansion which is pretty ordinary up to this point.

[Walter]

What we see is flying has been a huge part of the game for 7+ years.

You'd have to be a special kind of fool to think it's not important to a large number of the playerbase no matter how you play the game.

For me the, "I don't care" or "I'm not choosing a side" is rather worthless. So no, your opinion is not all that important because it leads nowhere in the debate.

It's called impartiality. I do care. I care that people are allowed to continue playing their way, in their own style. I care that the game needs to have compelling gameplay, and should be worth our time and efforts. I care that people are obviously bothered by a feature which has been around for 8 years being placed on the chopping block, and hangs in the balance of popularity versus compelling content. I do care. But emotion serves little purpose when trying to reason with a corporation. A machine, built of brick and steel, whose sole purpose is to make a product which generates revenue. If Blizzard were a person, emotion might help your cause. Since they are a for-profit corporation, they need to see facts and figures, illustrated through logic and reasoning.

I am neither for, nor against flying because picking a side only perpetuates the need to argue for that side. I can, however, sit back and objectively and logically see that flying has a few facts about it:

- Flying is fun for some players
- Flying is convenient for ALL players
- Flying is not fun for some players
- Flying affects the personal and subjective perspective of players (ruins or does not ruin immersion)
- Flying allows you to move between A and B with little to no resistance, or danger
- Flying is the 2nd fastest method of travel in the game next to portals (mage or city)
- Flying allows for exploration and discovery
- Flying allows players to avoid other players (PvP usually)
- Flying improves gathering, at least until Garrisons automate the process
- Flying speeds up things like Dailies, and Archaeology
- Flying allows players to swoop in and steal objectives, targets, pets, rares, etc from other players
- Flying allows players to AFK out in the world to avoid any chance of coming back and being dead
- Flying provides a certain sense of freedom, giving the player a sandbox in the sky
- Flying is only truly needed to access certain locations in each expansion
- Flying allows the player to extricate themselves from their surroundings if they are not happy about the situation
- Flying allows the player to be just out of aggro and arms length in towns and city entrances, allowing them to hover and mock the opposition
- Flying is unique to WoW, where a fantasy game gives you a Dragon to ride through the skies
- Flying was the nail in the coffin after Instanced content removed players from zones, allowing them to queue for instances rather than go to them
- Flying is a key component in some player's playstyle
- Flying allows players to skip over old, or outdated content at max level
- Flying provides a freedom from Flight Paths which currently meander and move at less than 310%
- Not flying could reduce the competitive edge for some players who would rather be on the ground
- Not flying increases your chance to encounter NPCs, threatening or not
- Not flying increases your chance to encounter other players, threatening or not

There are likely a hundred more truths about flying I have neglected to mention, but from a completely impartial perspective, these are the facts about flying. I am not encouraging flight to be removed. This should mean something since I am primarily a ground mount user who could just as easily spin all of the above to go in my favor. However, to remain impartial, and objective, I would rather examine the truths about flying and show both sides what the other side is trying to point out.

Do I think flying ruined the game? No. Do I think flying ruined PvP? No. Do I think it ruined the questing experience for lower level players? Yes. Do I prefer ground mounts? Yes. Would I be mad if flying was removed? No. But I would feel bad for the people who keep it in their gameplay arsenal. Anything that adds fun to an experience should never be taken away. But, as previously illustrated, not everyone enjoys flying, and some are even put off by it. In understanding and respecting the pro-flight PoV, I must also treat the anti-flight PoV with the same level of respect, particularly when I spend 95% of my time on a ground mount even with flying in the game. Always have. I play WoW in my own way. I am not here to compete with anyone, so I am not bothered by spending more time on the ground than I would less time in the air.

So, when you are done acting the way you are acting, I would gladly welcome a real discussion about the topic. I will not, however, engage in immature responses and snark. I might make a humorous comment, but not with the expense of condescension.

[gamingmuscle]

Take for example, the empty zones of the world. Between Battlemasters, Dungeon Finder, BG finder, Raid Finder, Arena Finder, and other conveniences, people no longer have to go out to the entrance of the instance. In 1.6, when we got battlemasters, you no longer had to go to the entrance of the BG. In 3.2, we got the dungeon finder, meaning no more LFG in chat, running to the summoning stone, and then hoping your whole party showed up. In 4.3, raiding got a similar facelift with easy mode raiding, but raiding none the less. Each time a new instance queue came, people stopped going to the entrance, and started sitting in the cities. Banks, AH, mailboxes, fishing holes, etc. Trade chat jammed up with people between queue pops. The world was now empty, and the city was full. The only people left in the world, were the side of the populous doing Archaeology, farming, gathering, pet battles, dailies, and questing. Flying was little more than a convenience for these things, but hardly a requirement.

Well I don't have much issue with what you detailed, but the number of people in the world that were trying to get to an instance was small. All the convenience queues didn't cut large chunks of the population from the world. Completing the necessary open world content did. Up until rather recently the primary purpose of the open world has been leveling, with some things like gathering, pvp, minor pve elements thrown in. But the largest source of content it provided was leveling. As the server population hits max level, the majority migrate to major hubs. Primarily AH locations.

If I was to examine my primary methods of getting around the open world, I use my ground mount more often than my flight form. Usually as there is little noticeable benefit from flying when I am mass murdering things, and the Polar bear with a murloc on it's head is my favorite mount in the game =P

I like flying primarily because of freedom, and there are more possibilities for content design and game play possibilities in a game with flying than without. I recognize that blizzard hasn't leveraged this fact to often, but I like all the floating islands and keeps as such that we have had in the game. And to put a "taxi" at every single one of these would kind of ruin the feel of it for me.

[Army Dreamer]

- Not flying could reduce the competitive edge for some players who would rather be on the ground

Never seen anyone who would waive flying as long as it exists.

[gamingmuscle]

Do I think it ruined the questing experience for lower level players? Yes.

How so? To me flying seems inconsequential to lower level questing.

[Walter]

Well I don't have much issue with what you detailed, but the number of people in the world that were trying to get to an instance was small. All the convenience queues didn't cut large chunks of the population from the world. Completing the necessary open world content did. Up until rather recently the primary purpose of the open world has been leveling, with some things like gathering, pvp, minor pve elements thrown in. But the largest source of content it provided was leveling. As the server population hits max level, the majority migrate to major hubs. Primarily AH locations.

If I was to examine my primary methods of getting around the open world, I use my ground mount more often than my flight form. Usually as there is little noticeable benefit from flying when I am mass murdering things, and the Polar bear with a murloc on it's head is my favorite mount in the game =P

I like flying primarily because of freedom, and there are more possibilities for content design and game play possibilities in a game with flying than without. I recognize that blizzard hasn't leveraged this fact to often, but I like all the floating islands and keeps as such that we have had in the game. And to put a "taxi" at every single one of these would kind of ruin the feel of it for me.

I have to wonder though, before instance queues, there were only two ways to get to a dungeon. Run, or be summoned. Either way, in TBC and the first half of Wrath, I spent enough time in front of Dungeons to see 3 or 4 groups of people gathering, and each would help the other summon other players. Now, you log in, queue up, do whatever you want to do, and when the queue pops, you are instantly teleported inside the instance. Not even outside to the summoning stone to be a part of the world. While I like the premise of the queue, personally, I feel like you should still have to physically move to the entrance on your own.

- - - Updated - - -

How so? To me flying seems inconsequential to lower level questing.

Ok, here I am. LvL 90 Gnome DK. I am going back for my Loremaster title. First stop, Westfall. As lvl 10-16 players are in the zone just fighting for kills, I run through a field, AoE Blood Boil everything, Death and Decay, Death Grip, and bam... total annihilation. I complete the whole thing in a matter of moments. Meanwhile, 4 other players are struggling to jog over from hub to hub just to get the quest objectives. While they run, I mount up, fly over, and murder everything leaving them waiting on respawns.

Now, I personally would not do this since it is not a very friendly playstyle. However, it still happens... a lot. More commonly with hunters taming rares, and the opposition flying by. The rare finder goes off, you swoop in, see a hunter taming, and you 2 shot it. Without flight, that same person on a ground mount might not have made it in time to disrupt that other player.