1. #19581
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deamon002 View Post
    Even if people could instantly self-res, they'd still hate dying. Because dying means you lost.
    It does? How is it a loss when you get back and do again, to eventually pick up your loot?

    Some person will hate anything in the game. However dying carries about as much weight as being put in a time-out corner for a few moments. The concept of danger is simply not there with any mob, boss or event. However, let us look at context. Folk make it clear that a dangerous mob is more exciting than a 'non-threatening' mob, the former being 'content' and the latter being worthless and something desirable to skip. The suggestion being that danger arises from 'losing', a situation the player hates due to the effect it has on their mental well-being and self-image. So then, it carries equal weight to the daze mechanic, the player 'losing' because they did not succeed in managing to circumnavigate the mob. With this in mind the entire world would become instantly dangerous should we be grounded.

    Or we could just say danger is not present anywhere in the world, regardless of whatever weak justification you can throw at the idea of a mob presenting danger over a setback, wounded pride and a spell in a graveyard.

  2. #19582
    I am Murloc! Conscious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter II View Post
    Right now, Ferals and Booms are doing KILLER DPS. Which tells me, WITH Flight Form, they won't be flying from anything... but rather STALKING. Druids are shaping up to be the top heals and DPS of 6.05. I personally don't PvP, but I plan to do some stalking and mocking from high in the sky.
    Blizzard went out of their way to make sure that flight is extremely limited in it's effectiveness on Ashran, so much so that the tome to enable flight is an extremely rare drop, and currently on a weekly loot table to boot.

  3. #19583
    Blizzard is going to be eventually be left with 500k players of extreme loyalists and the game's gonna go so far backwards it will feel like pre-BC, but I guess they'll finally be happy then, them, the "majority", while us, 12.5 million players, the minority, will finally be kicked out of their perfect world which they understand so well.

    After all, these loyalists, like us, are people who've been playing WC since WC1...right?

  4. #19584
    Quote Originally Posted by Laumann View Post
    It does? How is it a loss when you get back and do again, to eventually pick up your loot?

    Some person will hate anything in the game. However dying carries about as much weight as being put in a time-out corner for a few moments. The concept of danger is simply not there with any mob, boss or event. However, let us look at context. Folk make it clear that a dangerous mob is more exciting than a 'non-threatening' mob, the former being 'content' and the latter being worthless and something desirable to skip. The suggestion being that danger arises from 'losing', a situation the player hates due to the effect it has on their mental well-being and self-image. So then, it carries equal weight to the daze mechanic, the player 'losing' because they did not succeed in managing to circumnavigate the mob. With this in mind the entire world would become instantly dangerous should we be grounded.

    Or we could just say danger is not present anywhere in the world, regardless of whatever weak justification you can throw at the idea of a mob presenting danger over a setback, wounded pride and a spell in a graveyard.
    Dying absolutely does not carry the same weight as getting dazed by J. Random Trashmob, just because you say it should. The meat of the game is combat, that is what it revolves around. If you lose in combat, people feel like, well, they lost. If you get killed by a wolf three levels beneath you, you feel like a noob.

    Circumnavigating trash mobs is not what what any player ever considered a game, it's just a random annoyance on the way to the actual game. Nobody cares about whether you 'win' at not pulling any trash on Endless Slog #4126 beyond the fact that a pull is yet another pointless and not-fun distraction until you actually get to the real game.

    The bottom line: danger of dying is considered a 'real' danger because people care about it.
    Last edited by Deamon002; 2014-09-22 at 01:26 PM.

  5. #19585
    I am Murloc! Conscious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lesclaypool View Post
    Blizzard is going to be eventually be left with 500k players of extreme loyalists and the game's gonna go so far backwards it will feel like pre-BC, but I guess they'll finally be happy then, them, the "majority", while us, 12.5 million players, the minority, will finally be kicked out of their perfect world which they understand so well.

    After all, these loyalists, like us, are people who've been playing WC since WC1...right?
    As tinfoil as it may seem, I think that's why they're doing it.

    The game has already reached Pre-BC subscription levels and will be even less by the time Warlords rolls around.

    So the question that they're addressing with all the removals and content reduction, specifically flying however, is 'Why are we developing content that isn't warranted based on the lack and loss of subscriptions?".

    To go even further, there's no reason to invest time and money into things that Vanilla WoW didn't have and at the time need. Especially if they want the game to be able to be dragged down the road and through to a free-to-play atmosphere.

  6. #19586
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Now see if you had ranted like that the first time instead of saying that backwards hogwash from before we all would've understood your moot point in the beginning more clearly
    Excuse me for assuming a modicum of intelligence on the reader's part.

  7. #19587
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conscious View Post
    Blizzard went out of their way to make sure that flight is extremely limited in it's effectiveness on Ashran, so much so that the tome to enable flight is an extremely rare drop, and currently on a weekly loot table to boot.
    15 minutes (let alone 5 hours) of flight during fight is still OP, and unbalanced. Even if it is extremely limited, it still stacks up to 5, giving me 5 hours a week to fly in Ashran and mess with PvPers

  8. #19588
    Quote Originally Posted by Drytoast View Post
    true story:

    a friend in real life whom used to play WoW but usually cancels after he hits level cap, asked me on the phone if I was going to play wow's next expansion

    (he's about as casual as they come)

    him "so you gonna get the next expansion?"

    me "nope, blizzard removed the ability to fly in the new areas so fuck that"

    him "wait, what? that's not mentioned anywhere, where did you hear this?"

    me "it's on all the forums, it's blizzard's new 'featured' gameplay"

    him "bullshit! (googles "warcraft, and no flight)"

    *long pause*

    him "well fuck that then...that's fucking stupid"

    me "yaaap!"

    and thus ended our wow conversation.
    While anecdotial, Our guild conversations are about the same.

    It starts most times with old members coming to TS with a round of, "Hey, it's so and so.! Good to see you."

    Conversation soon moves to them saying were thinking of coming back to wow and wanted to make sure we were all still there.

    Turns out, we are not. Fan fiction story (most believe is being done to push the movie), same ole same ole content (not bad but not great) but the killer so far is them finding out there is no flying at max level (all flying mounts now run on the ground) and every reason blizzard gave for removing it didn't actually happen in game. No new mechanics, no amazing content with flying out. Just more of the same but this time, no flying and the one interesting feature (garrisons) is not strong enough to carry the entire expansion just so flying can be removed and content stretched out longer than it's normal life cycle.

    Then by the time we add the special "dick" business move of blizzard removing flight in relevant content, them also ask you to pay more for (which is another downside), our older games at a 100% success rate say, "Screw that, I spent too much time collecting those flying mounts just to ride them on the ground. What are you playing now? I'll join you there."

    I do have a feeling there are a lot of past gamers that have no clue flying is out for some undisclosed amount of time so content can be extended. They will not be all that excited when they find out and blizzard is keeping it on the down-low to make sure box sales don't suffer (even if they just wait for flying to return) and hope by the time gamers reach max level, they will be invested enough to not leave. So, we're catching our old gamers and giving them the information first. It' is changing their minds about WoD.
    Last edited by quras; 2014-09-22 at 01:53 PM.

  9. #19589
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter II View Post
    15 minutes (let alone 5 hours) of flight during fight is still OP, and unbalanced. Even if it is extremely limited, it still stacks up to 5, giving me 5 hours a week to fly in Ashran and mess with PvPers
    I'll just lock you into the prison, with Jailer's Judgment.

    Muhaha, have fun flying around in the cage, bird-boy.

  10. #19590
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Or you could learn to speak better. I was making fun of the way you said it, which was backwards and idiotic, not what you said. I knew what you MEANT to say, it's just a tired old message from stubborn people who hate change, so I decided to play with your poor English skills instead.

    Let's be friends now k?
    So you're pretending not to understand a very simple statement, yet I'm the idiotic one? Right.

    Also "you just hate change" is about as tired and old a message as it gets. Usually from gits who can't come up with a convincing argument why a particular change isn't a bad one.

  11. #19591
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lesclaypool View Post
    Blizzard is going to be eventually be left with 500k players of extreme loyalists and the game's gonna go so far backwards it will feel like pre-BC, but I guess they'll finally be happy then, them, the "majority", while us, 12.5 million players, the minority, will finally be kicked out of their perfect world which they understand so well.

    After all, these loyalists, like us, are people who've been playing WC since WC1...right?
    Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling.... Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes... The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice. Dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

    Dying absolutely does not carry the same weight as getting dazed by J. Random Trashmob, just because you say it should. The meat of the game is combat, that is what it revolves around. If you lose in combat, people feel like, well, they lost. If you get killed by a wolf three levels beneath you, you feel like a noob.

    Circumnavigating trash mobs is not what what any player ever considers a game, it's just a random annoyance on the way to the actual game. Nobody cares about whether you 'win' at not pulling any trash on Endless Slog #4126 beyond the fact that a pull is yet another pointless and not-fun distraction until you actually get to the real game.

    The bottom line: danger of dying is considered a 'real' because people care about it.
    I did not say nor imply that it should. I stated that it did, regardless of how you see it or how you perceive the world through your blinkered and narrow viewpoint. It is nice of you to speak for everyone who plays WoW, I am certain that they appreciate your statement that informs them of what their intentions are and the reasons for them playing.

    It is interesting to note though, that in context, mobs are often perceived as an inconvenience because they prevent an easy access to certain aspects of the game in particular: Archaeology, Pet battles and gathering. These three aspects are the meat and potatoes for some people, and none of them revolve around combat.

    The real bottom line: Danger of dying is still only perceived as a danger because it represents a potential inconvenience. The fear of having to waste extra time sitting in a graveyard and of no extra consequence other than that. With this in mind it makes these mobs essentially no different from having to fight 'worthless' mobs, where the loss is felt through the inconvenience of having to fight and kill it, again drawing the player away from their intended playtime goals. (Chest, node, pet, digsite.)

  12. #19592
    Quote Originally Posted by Laumann View Post
    Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling.... Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes... The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice. Dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!
    I didn't say it was gonna happen tomorrow, and I don't care if it does or doesn't happen, I'm just saying it what it feels like it's gonna happen.

  13. #19593
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    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Seriously I need to look more into this Ashran thing, these items you guys are linking look friggin' FUN!
    Warlords of Draenor: Ashran spell tomes
    http://wow.joystiq.com/2014/07/02/wa...n-spell-tomes/

    - - - Updated - - -


  14. #19594
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzaman View Post
    I'll just lock you into the prison, with Jailer's Judgment.

    Muhaha, have fun flying around in the cage, bird-boy.
    lol that would be a sight to see Like a bird in a cage.

  15. #19595
    Quote Originally Posted by Anzaman View Post
    I'll just lock you into the prison, with Jailer's Judgment.

    Muhaha, have fun flying around in the cage, bird-boy.
    Problem is it's currently dispellable.

  16. #19596
    Quote Originally Posted by Walter II View Post
    "There is a damn good reason why blizzard didnt promote "no flight" anywhere" - This would be false. They promoted it at Blizzcon when they announced an epic quest, like the cloak, that would unlock flight in the first major patch (6.1). This was confirmed by Bashiok and other members on the official forums, and since the announcement has been passing through every realm. So I have to wonder if after 10 months of knowing, and pissed off people on every realm telling everyone they can about no flight, why more people have not logged in here, or at BattleNet to raise a fuss like some folks.
    They did not promote it. They talked about it during a side interview between panels that most people didn't even see. That's not promoting. Promoting would have been announcing it during a panel and talking about it at length.

  17. #19597
    Quote Originally Posted by Walter II View Post
    Flight is back in Ashran, and I plan to use it to my advantage. Faster travel around the island, faster gathering of mats and quest items while in flight form, and being able to fight someone in and out of flight form.

    Oh, flight is WAY in, and attached to PvP. Get over it
    Wouldn't it be funny if that Book of Flight Form didn't actually let you fly, only shift into the form? Maybe one of the new animations planned is to show birds walking on the ground!

  18. #19598
    Quote Originally Posted by Lesclaypool View Post
    Blizzard is going to be eventually be left with 500k players of extreme loyalists and the game's gonna go so far backwards it will feel like pre-BC, but I guess they'll finally be happy then, them, the "majority", while us, 12.5 million players, the minority, will finally be kicked out of their perfect world which they understand so well.

    After all, these loyalists, like us, are people who've been playing WC since WC1...right?
    Great post. I played WC1 when it was brand new.

    I do not believe this change has anything to do with gameplay. Gutting our speed of transportation will make content last longer. There is nothing besides that.

    It just happens to be the 1% white knighters are the ones that support this.

    Look at blizzard stating that 50% of players support no flying when all of us in this thread knows almost none of the gaming community knows about it.

    Shit they are still selling flying mounts with no disclaimer.

    Blizzard used to be a company of gamers who made games for gamers.

    Now they are are a company of gamers who fuck gamers out of money.

    Selling something that is shortly going to be discontinued is dishonest. No way around that.

  19. #19599
    Quote Originally Posted by Laumann View Post
    I did not say nor imply that it should. I stated that it did, regardless of how you see it or how you perceive the world through your blinkered and narrow viewpoint. It is nice of you to speak for everyone who plays WoW, I am certain that they appreciate your statement that informs them of what their intentions are and the reasons for them playing.
    Yes, of course; stating that people care about whether or not they die ingame is a "narrow and blinkered" viewpoint. Sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laumann View Post
    It is interesting to note though, that in context, mobs are often perceived as an inconvenience because they prevent an easy access to certain aspects of the game in particular: Archaeology, Pet battles and gathering. These three aspects are the meat and potatoes for some people, and none of them revolve around combat.
    Which is why those people dislike being forced into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laumann View Post
    The real bottom line: Danger of dying is still only perceived as a danger because it represents a potential inconvenience. The fear of having to waste extra time sitting in a graveyard and of no extra consequence other than that. With this in mind it makes these mobs essentially no different from having to fight 'worthless' mobs, where the loss is felt through the inconvenience of having to fight and kill it, again drawing the player away from their intended playtime goals. (Chest, node, pet, digsite.)
    Of course death is 'only an inconvenience'. That however is a completely meaningless statement, as there are no permanent consequences for failure aside from lost time. (And durability, but gold is so plentiful these days that I haven't heard anyone complain about that in years.) This does not mean that all 'inconveniences' are created equal. It is a simple fact that most players will try far harder to avoid death than to avoid fighting one more trash mob, far more so than the extra minute of lost time would lead you to expect.

  20. #19600
    Quote Originally Posted by Deamon002 View Post
    Dying absolutely does not carry the same weight as getting dazed by J. Random Trashmob, just because you say it should. The meat of the game is combat, that is what it revolves around. If you lose in combat, people feel like, well, they lost. If you get killed by a wolf three levels beneath you, you feel like a noob.

    Circumnavigating trash mobs is not what what any player ever considered a game, it's just a random annoyance on the way to the actual game. Nobody cares about whether you 'win' at not pulling any trash on Endless Slog #4126 beyond the fact that a pull is yet another pointless and not-fun distraction until you actually get to the real game.

    The bottom line: danger of dying is considered a 'real' danger because people care about it.
    Personally I don't find "danger" in much of anything in the game, though I do find "challenge" in the puzzle of figuring out how to go about defeating/negotiating an encounter successfully. Dying means an unsuccessful "solution" to the problem and one must try a different one... similar to any other puzzle.

    What I find the most detrimental to "losing", as you call it, is the time loss. We pay for time to play the game. Dying has a penalty of time -- some obvious and immediate, some not so obvious and deferred. If you're familiar with the economic theor of the "broken window" has some application here. The obvious and immediate cost is the time taken to corpse run. The less obvious and deferred is any time taken (now or later) to stop other activities for repairs and the associated gold cost to do it -- which it required time to gather and could have been spent on something else but is now diverted to this instead.

    So, "losing" for those who view it as such, isn't just the surface loss of a conflict, it's the loss of time (time sink on us) on multiple levels and also a $-sink (in game and rl). Blizz's removal of flight, for what ever reasons (stated publicly or not) has the effect of increasing the time sink on the players; we are slowed down immediately by loss of flight's speed advantage, and we are slowed even more by mobs as we travel, we are slowed down more by game play diverted to repair of gear (even if only occasionally), etc., etc.

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