Mage Talents and Siege Bosses, What are the viable choices

[Deleted]

Hello there fellow MMO-ers
In this post I would like to analyze Siege of Oggrimar bosses and the talents that i pick in each fight. Notice that this isn't an absolute guideline of course, and if you have another prefferance feel free to comment so we can have a nice discussion going. I will not handle the Tier 90 talents are those are spec dependent.

Edit: This concerns Frost Mage Specialization

Immerseus
-Blazing Speed: As you don't have to move extensively during the fight and the only real movement happens when an extensive amount of blobs spawns away from you you should pick this to close the distance fast.
-Temporal Shield: This is extremely useful during Phase 2 as you remove a huge burden from your healers and it is not on the GCD so you can use it during P1 without repercussions.
-Frostjaw: Sadly ring of frost doesn't work on the Sha Blobs, so you should pick Frostjaw just in case that wild blob is about to hit the pool.
-Greater Invisibility: With this talent you make a hitting swirl cause minimal damage
-Living Bomb: There is mostly single target damage needed in this fight and even in P2 it takes way to long to dot all the blobs up so you use LB for the single target damage increase it offers.

On Heroic mode you should use Greater Invisibility to remove the damage over time debuff during your burst so you can have 100% of your dps on burst. Also note that you can swap Frost Bomb for Heroic Mode as together with pet freeze you can almost solo the stacking adds. The Single Target dps loss exists but you are not going to reach enrage because of it

Fallen Protectors
-Blazing Speed: Icy Floes is also viable but they both serve minimally in this fight. I like the bursty speed of BS and that is why I generally pick it.
-Temporal Shield: It helps with the Calamity damage and the Inferno Wave during Rook's Desperate measures. Ice Barrier is quite alright as well but remember that it is on the GCD.
-Frostjaw: You have an extra interrupt for the Embodied Gloom cast
-Greater Invisibility: Survivability and the fact that it removes He's debuff
-Living Bomb: You can use Nether Tempest just as well I haven't noticed a significant DPS difference. It varies on every fight. Remember to dot everyone

On Heroic Mode you should use Greater Invisibility to remove He's debuff as soon as it comes on you unless you are behind on DPS. Then you should use it on the stacking Calamities. Only use Ice Block for the Embodied Anguish soak.

Norushen
-Blazing Speed: Makes it easier to run around the mobs in the trial section of the fight
-Ice Barrier: There is no bursty damage but more of a consistent damage intake. That's why temporal shield isn't as handy.
-Frostjaw: Not a very important talent in this fight
-Greater Invisibility: You can also use Cauterize as there is no damage taken burst. Personal choice.
-Living Bomb: The hardest part of the fight is when the fight reaches it's end where you want the most of the damage on the boss. Nether tempest is OK, but if you struggle on dps it's preferred that you pick LB.

No particular tricks or tips for Heroic mode. If someone has one please fill me in and I shall edit this

Sha of Pride
-Icy Floes: There is limited movement in normal mode so Blazing Speed is not necessary.
-Ice Barrier: The damage from Swelling pride is 255k damage. Ice Barrier if combined with Trinket procs can soak up to 230k. Temporal Shield would block 0.15 * 255k = 38k damage. As every Swelling Pride is usually handled by healer cooldowns the Healing effect of TS is probably going to go to waste.
-Ring of Frost: AFTER the tanks have picked up the adds, drop it under them follow up with blizzard and enjoy
-Greater Invisibility: If you have Gift of the Titans and a Mark of Arrogance, or if a healer is on high pride you can use this to remove the Mark. Also due to the 1.5 minute CD you can use it on every second Swelling Pride.
-Living Bomb: Strongest single target.

On Heroic mode there are many talent choice changes that are necessary (mostly on their use). Use Blazing Speed instead of Icy Floes in order to soak the Rifts fast and be back in position. When soaking the Rift use Ice Barrier as it negates roughly 80% of the damage from Collapsing Rift. During P2 you should use GI, Ice Block, GI in order to soak 3 subsequent Swelling Prides. This minimizes the strain on your healers.

Also note that you should for no reason put RoF on the spawning place of the small ads.

Galakras
-Blazing Speed: There are several moment when you need to be somewhere fast.
-Ice Barrier:There is never a high enough burst for Temporal Shield to be usefull except during the last phase but we handle that with Greater Invisibility.
-Frostjaw: Extra interrupt if someone fucks up.
-Greater Invisibility: Removes the Fire Debuff during the Dragon Phase and greatly minimizes the damage.
-Living Bomb/Nether Tempest: Living bomb is going to offer you more damage on Galakras so take that if you struggle as a guild on P2. Nether Tempest speeds up P1 a little.

On Heroic if you are on Grunt duty use Frostjaw on the Grunt to keep him away from the siege gnomes.

Iron Juggernaut
-Icy Floes: There is quite alot of sidestepping Borer Drills and Cannons and Kiting Lazers that this is helping you maximize your dps.
-Temporal Shield: Greatly helps during P2 as it is high consistent damage.
-Frostjaw: Of 0 importance
-Greater Invisibility: Use for soaking mines if necessary and negating Shock Pulse damage.
-Living Bomb: Single target only fight so LB is the boss.

On Heroic mode there are some important changes you should keep in mind. Replace Icy Floes with Blazing Speed for those O-shit-O-shit moments and in order to reach the boss faster after P2 (assuming you do the cheese mechanic). You can use Greater Invisibility instead of Cauterize for the Shockwave but that is personal preference. Both have their uses. Remember to DoT the boss up before you get knocked back and out of range.

Dark Shamans
-Blazing Speed: Helps out when you get Mist tornadoes close to you. Icy Floes is of use as well.
-Ice Barrier: You can't expect the damage in this fight so just keep Ice Barrier up as often as you can
-Ring of Frost: You can bother to use this on the Green Slimes. I personally can't.
-Cauterize: This fight is a clusterfck on Normal so it's the unexpected that kills you.
-Living Bomb: Excellent 2 target cleave. During the Doggy part just Dot the 2 dogs and 1 shaman.

Heroic is far less of a clusterfck so that reflects on your talents. Take Greater Invisibility for the Iron Prison mechanic or to reduce damage from Toxic Mist if you are on that group (not sure if it removes the debuff).

Malkorok
-Blazing Speed: To soak emergency puddles.
-Ice Barrier: To reduce damage from the puddles.
-Frostjaw: Not important
-Greater Invisibility: Reduce damage from puddles.
-Living Bomb: More damage on Malkorok so you end the fight quicker and there are less puddles.

A lot of puddles on this fight. On Heroic you should use Ice Barrier to soak one Orb during P1 right after the puddles have spawned and you are not on puddle soaking duty at that moment (aka it's not on your pizza slice). The Ice Barrier absorption and the damage from those orbs is equal. During P2 use GI and Blazing Speed to soak the most Orbs possible.

Spoils of Pandaria

-Blazing Speed: Fast Klaaxi bomb drop and return to position.
-Ice Barrier: There is not much high burst or high consistent damage going on so it outvalues Temporal Shield.
-Ring of Frost: You can frost the quilen dogs but it isn't that much of a deal.
-Greater Invisibility: With this you can soak the Klaaxi bombs and greatly reduce the Damage from the bosses in the Mogu side
-Nether Tempest: You dot everything up and top the meters.

On Heroic you should use Temporal Shield instead of Ice Barrier as Mogu has very high burst and Klaaxxi has extremely high ticking damage.

Thok the Bloodthirsty

-Blazing Speed: Very useful if you are the last target of the Fixate phase
-Temporal Shield: As there is damage every 2.4 seconds that also interrupts you, you can not waste a whole GCD on Ice Barrier when it's going to get broken immediately after.
-Frostjaw: Not important
-Greater Invisibility: Removes the debuff during the Acid Phase
-Living Bomb: Highest single target

Siegecrafter Blackfuse
-Icy Floes/Blazing Speed: If you are on the belt IF is a must. If you are on the boss then both are very good and you should just pick whatever you prefer.
-Ice Barrier: Keep it up whenever possible. Haven't found much of a use on Temporal Shield except that it's not on the GCD.
-Ring of Frost: Use it on the mines.
-Greater Invisibility: Removes the laser debuff if you happen to receive one.
-Living Bomb: Highest single target

On Heroic mode you should have the same talents but you must be more careful in using them. Use Greater Invisibility only when you are forced to run through a laser during the Empowered Laser + Empowered Magnet phase. Use Ice Barrier before you enter the laser to drop the Saw blade so you minimise the damage and GI after to remove the DoT.

Paragons of The Klaaxxi
-Blazing Speed: Get in range of a blue catalyst or in the Aim.
-Ice Barrier: Use it on cooldown. Haven't found a use for Temporal Shield yet.
-Ring of Frost: Not important as it doesn't freeze the bloods.
-Greater Invisibility: Completely removes the Aim effect from you so should be picked at all times.
-Living Bomb: This isn't a multidot fight so you should take the best single target spell you have.

Use the exact same talents on Heroic mode.

Garrosh Hellscream

-Blazing Speed:Very handy for dropping Desecrates far from the raid and return back in position. Also right after you return from the Realm of Ysh'jaar you are dropped in the middle and with most tactics you are required to get to a far away marker.
-Temporal Shield: Handy for Intermissions and Whirling Corruptions.
-Frostjaw: Extra interrupt for the Shaman
-Greater Invisibility: Minimizes the damage from all sources.
-Living Bomb: Most of the fight is single target and you should use single target bombs.

On heroic mode you must use the above talents. Use Blazing Speed also for P4 if you get targeted by the Iron Star. Also usefull for the Temple of the Jade Serpent intermission if you are assigned far away. Use Frostjaw and Counterspell to interrupt the first two casts of the shaman mob (ask your raid for that assignment).

This took me several hours to complete so I hope you guys have a use of it. If you have any disagreement feel free to post and I shall edit whatever I agree with.

All Hail Akraen

[Mastamage]

This took me several hours to complete so I hope you guys have a use of it. If you have any disagreement feel free to post and I shall edit whatever I agree with.

There's quite a bit to edit in this post regarding Bombs (I'm assuming this is meant to cover all Mage specs) Temporal Shield vs Ice Barrier and Blazing Speed vs Ice Floes and Cauterize vs GI. Almost all of this information can be found elsewhere on the Mage forums (I know the Arcane guide just recently had talks dealing with Bombs and Armor choice).

All Hail Jaina (she has tits).

[Polarthief]

You should definitely replace "Viable" with "Best". I don't think any talent would make you not viable; even being an idiot and picking IW still makes you viable, just not competitive/the best choice.

Also, I'd argue that GI is better than Cauterize in almost any situation, especially on Juggernaut where you have Cauterize put in. On IJ, all that would happen is you're going to trigger Caut, then immediately die after because of the DoT. If you use Ice Block to block it off, you could have just used the block to block damage instead, so now you're wasting both Caut AND a 5m Ice Block when you could have just used GI for a few seconds.

[durrtygoodz]

All Hail Akraen

Confirmed for Akraen's second account.

[Deleted]

There's quite a bit to edit in this post regarding Bombs (I'm assuming this is meant to cover all Mage specs) Temporal Shield vs Ice Barrier and Blazing Speed vs Ice Floes and Cauterize vs GI. Almost all of this information can be found elsewhere on the Mage forums (I know the Arcane guide just recently had talks dealing with Bombs and Armor choice).

All Hail Jaina (she has tits).

Ye concerning the bombs it's weird to give advice on that as each spec has some different things. Concerning the shields it's not about the dps boost but the survivability boost.

- - - Updated - - -

You should definitely replace "Viable" with "Best". I don't think any talent would make you not viable; even being an idiot and picking IW still makes you viable, just not competitive/the best choice.

Also, I'd argue that GI is better than Cauterize in almost any situation, especially on Juggernaut where you have Cauterize put in. On IJ, all that would happen is you're going to trigger Caut, then immediately die after because of the DoT. If you use Ice Block to block it off, you could have just used the block to block damage instead, so now you're wasting both Caut AND a 5m Ice Block when you could have just used GI for a few seconds.

As I said this is because mostly on IJ when I die it is because something extremely random happens that I didn't expect (Sawblade + Lazer). GI is extremely good but it's on use which means it doesn't block the unexpected. But idd in terms of how strong it is Greater Inv is one of the best defensives in the game.

[Deleted]

I only had a quick skim read over this article, but is this for all mage specs? Because Icy floes is practically a mandatory choice all the time for Arcane. And PoM is mandatory for fire.

[Deleted]

I only had a quick skim read over this article, but is this for all mage specs? Because Icy floes is practically a mandatory choice all the time for Arcane. And PoM is mandatory for fire.

I play mainly frost mage but I do swap around once per reset. And Icy Floes is not mandatory it's almost equivalent. At least for SoO there only a couple of fights where Icy Floes is 100% mandatory. PoM for Fire is not mandatory it's a slight Dps increase.

[Deleted]

I play mainly frost mage but I do swap around once per reset. And Icy Floes is not mandatory it's almost equivalent. At least for SoO there only a couple of fights where Icy Floes is 100% mandatory. PoM for Fire is not mandatory it's a slight Dps increase.

I think you are GREATLY undervaluing the advantage of being able to place your RoP on the move as Arcane. It is practically mandatory if you want to be optimal, and has been agreed upon by very credible Arcane mages.

To your answer about PoM, anything that is a slight DPS increase is the majority of the time mandatory at high end raiding.

[Mastamage]

concerning the shields it's not about the dps boost but the survivability boost.

I would argue that TS is better than IB in both DPS boost and survivability on every fight.

[Polarthief]

As I said this is because mostly on IJ when I die it is because something extremely random happens that I didn't expect (Sawblade + Lazer). GI is extremely good but it's on use which means it doesn't block the unexpected. But idd in terms of how strong it is Greater Inv is one of the best defensives in the game.

Unexpected damage on IJ from where, exactly? You expect the tremors, you expect the knockback. If you're slow, you're gonna get hit (or stand still and use GI as part of planning). TBH on IJ specifically, I'd even consider Cold Snap as the 30% Heal is pretty invaluable, plus a second IB for negating the knockback, but Cauterize? I wouldn't see any use on IJ.

[Deleted]

Unexpected damage on IJ from where, exactly? You expect the tremors, you expect the knockback. If you're slow, you're gonna get hit (or stand still and use GI as part of planning). TBH on IJ specifically, I'd even consider Cold Snap as the 30% Heal is pretty invaluable, plus a second IB for negating the knockback, but Cauterize? I wouldn't see any use on IJ.

Might be as I haven't done IJ on normal since a long time ago that you are correct. Editing.

[Deleted]

Unfortunately, the first level of talents almost selects itself by spec - fire always uses PoM, arcane always uses Icy Floes and frost gets a choice, but blazing speed is probably the call the vast majority of the time.

I really wish that a couple of the mage talent tiers had more options that weren't quite so spec specific (first and last tiers are the worst offenders here).

[voltaa]

I understand where you are coming from with this, and I appreciate what you were trying to do here but it seems like you just lack the hard experience and knowledge to actually be giving this advice. A lot of this information is flat out objectively wrong. I'm on my phone and not going to go through piece by piece but if you don't notice a significant increase on protectors by using NT, you are doong something majorly wrong. You say that PoM and Ice floes are "slight increases" but PoM is in fact the mandatory talent for your off AT combust and while blazing speed is decent IF wins hands down. If you need a blazing speed use your engi boots, if you aren't an engineer you clearly aren't too concerned with being optimal. Not trying to be mean but people may end up looking at this and with little to no frame of reference for wherw this info is coming from may be mislead into believing that this is true. I understand you preface this woth it being your preference but there are right and wrong answers regardless of what you prefer.

[Deleted]

I understand where you are coming from with this, and I appreciate what you were trying to do here but it seems like you just lack the hard experience and knowledge to actually be giving this advice. A lot of this information is flat out objectively wrong. I'm on my phone and not going to go through piece by piece but if you don't notice a significant increase on protectors by using NT, you are doong something majorly wrong. You say that PoM and Ice floes are "slight increases" but PoM is in fact the mandatory talent for your off AT combust and while blazing speed is decent IF wins hands down. If you need a blazing speed use your engi boots, if you aren't an engineer you clearly aren't too concerned with being optimal. Not trying to be mean but people may end up looking at this and with little to no frame of reference for wherw this info is coming from may be mislead into believing that this is true. I understand you preface this woth it being your preference but there are right and wrong answers regardless of what you prefer.

The Reason I don't see a DPS increase is because most tactics involve splitting the bosses out of NT range. As I main Frost, this is made by 80% Frost mage pulls. As my experience with Arcane and Fire isn't as extended compared to other people here, I shall edit forum title to Frost mage.

[chkaze]

Please do not use greater invis when you are targeted by the laser on heroic siegecrafter... Sure you lose the laser but one of your raidmember immediatly gets the laser. Most likely you will stack somewhere and you just made the healers hate us mages even more.

[Deleted]

Would there be any interest in a "guide" about boss specific talents/tips for fire?

[Deleted]

I understand where you are coming from with this, and I appreciate what you were trying to do here but it seems like you just lack the hard experience and knowledge to actually be giving this advice. A lot of this information is flat out objectively wrong. I'm on my phone and not going to go through piece by piece but if you don't notice a significant increase on protectors by using NT, you are doong something majorly wrong. You say that PoM and Ice floes are "slight increases" but PoM is in fact the mandatory talent for your off AT combust and while blazing speed is decent IF wins hands down. If you need a blazing speed use your engi boots, if you aren't an engineer you clearly aren't too concerned with being optimal. Not trying to be mean but people may end up looking at this and with little to no frame of reference for wherw this info is coming from may be mislead into believing that this is true. I understand you preface this woth it being your preference but there are right and wrong answers regardless of what you prefer.

It is kind of odd to see this coming from you. Sure, there is incorrect information in there, but I also see tips which I personally recommend to other players. In addition, it can never be a negative thing to share your own thoughts, and show that there are people who actually experiment on their own without blindly listening to [insert most prominent player].

Your post makes it sound as if people are prohibited from having ideas unless they are super high end raiders, and that is exactly the attitude that's killing the mage community. Maybe you should put some time in going through it piece by piece, and help the guy create a nice compendium that saves many people from having to ask the same questions.

[voltaa]

It is kind of odd to see this coming from you. Sure, there is incorrect information in there, but I also see tips which I personally recommend to other players. In addition, it can never be a negative thing to share your own thoughts, and show that there are people who actually experiment on their own without blindly listening to [insert most prominent player].

I know that normally I would also be open and encouraging of trying your own thing, and yes I agree there is some very good information in there but when the post opens with

In this post I would like to analyze Siege of Oggrimar bosses and the talents you should pick in each fight.

then I start to go a little more on the defensive. "The talents the you should pick" this implies some level of correctness and guidance, it's one thing to say this is what I use and why, but a whole different beast to say you should be doing this too and then proceed to give false information. I normally wouldn't draw so much attention to this sort of thing, but especially with the beta popping up in the next few months we need to help people get a grasp on what they can credibly rely on. I'm not saying blindly trust me or Akraen or Cycobi or Vykina or any other player blindly, always question why people made their decisions/recommendations. What I am saying though is that when with a quick look I can pick out 1 or 2 dps losses per boss post, something is wrong.

Your post makes it sound as if people are prohibited from having ideas unless they are super high end raiders, and that is exactly the attitude that's killing the mage community. Maybe you should put some time in going through it piece by piece, and help the guy create a nice compendium that saves many people from having to ask the same questions.

I don't mean to come off as "you must be this tall to have an opinion" and don't think that only high end raiders should have a say. This is why we have threads rather than locked posts, so that we can discuss the information at hand. Criticism is good, it's the best way to improve the way you approach your playstyle and your theorycrafting. I would actually encourage Berlinia to keep posting things like this, but also take the critiques and advice from those mages on this forum who are generally credible sources and with the knowledge that he/she picks up around here eventually become one of those credible sources. I sure wasn't posting the greatest or most credible information when I started posting here, but through more posting and time and experience I came to eventually get deeper into the theory and was able to more accurately talk about the class. I'm not trying to tear you down here Berlinia, I think what you are doing is great and if you should keep it up and would actually love to take a quick look through right now and just point out some of the more glaring issues that I have with this for your consideration.

Also note that you can swap Frost Bomb for Heroic Mode as together with pet freeze you can almost solo the stacking adds. The Single Target dps loss exists but you are not going to reach enrage because of it

More effective than frost bomb on these adds would be to glyph your cone of cold and use AE on them, it's a higher DPET and you don't lose your better bomb for the single target portion/p2.

For protectors IF outweighs BS solely for moving out of ground effects, the less casts you cancel, the better off you are, there is not enough distance that needs to be covered to make BS worth it, a blink should cover any and all movement. As I said previously NT far out damages LB on this fight, but you said that for your strat you split them up out of cleave range, I wasn't aware that this was still a strat for this fight, but even so, there are 4 or more targets up for a good portion of the fight, enough that NT will still outweigh LB.

I like your Norushen and that is actually the one fight where I would argue that BS can still be competitive with IF, but would argue against ever taking Ice Barrier, on any fight outside of progression where you need the health pool, the 15% DR as well as the heal and being off the GCD make TS too strong. Also NT should be your bomb choice as there are adds up the entire fight, in cleave range.

For Sha I would actually advise Ice Floes over blazing speed and just plan movements further in advance, blinking to your rift then IF on the way back is far less dps loss than BS.

I like your points on Galakras other than Ice Barrier which shouldn't be used once you are geared.

For IJ

Replace Icy Floes with Blazing Speed for those O-shit-O-shit moments and in order to reach the boss faster after P2 (assuming you do the cheese mechanic).

I'm not quite sure what the "cheese mechanic" is on this fight, but for dealing with phase 2 you should blink the first knockback as it goes out, Ice block the second and blink the third, you will never go out of range of the boss and can keep your IF for sidestepping.

Shamans TS>Ginvis for Iron prison, you should save your ginvis for when you are really screwed.

Malk, I assume you are ten man? so BS may be an option but I literally IF backpedal into the soaks. Your tip for ginvis is a little off here as well, you should be using it for Breath of Y'Shaarj‎. If you are in an area where breath is going to hit you, rather than waste time moving, pop ginvis and dps.

Spoils TS>IB

Thok, I can see why you would say blazing speed, but saving your IF and Engi belt for when he's really trucking across the room and dpsing at that time right before you open the first cage, it's far more valuable.

Goons TS is an absolute lifesaver for fiery edge, IF for dpsing during the dance which is a significant portion of the fight, as well as reave.

Garry, blinking and IFing back for dropping desecrates will outweigh BS. You won't get targeted by the iron star if you are in the correct position. IF during empowered whirl as well as Bombardment any day over BS.

So really what I see here is too much use of Blazing Speed and Ice Barrier. If you like blazing speed though, by all means use it, I did for all of progression because I liked it, but now I use IF for farm because it just does better numbers. Ice Barrier though, outside of the first week of heroics, you really shouldn't have a low enough health pool to need it, if you aren't getting one shot, you don't want to be wasting the global that could be spent dpsing.

[Deleted]

I'm not quite sure what the "cheese mechanic" is on this fight, but for dealing with phase 2 you should blink the first knockback as it goes out, Ice block the second and blink the third, you will never go out of range of the boss and can keep your IF for sidestepping.

Cheese means that you spend the whole P2 away from the boss

Yea I am 10man. Edited it is for Frost mage. And I do not assume every mage is using engineering here.

[Deleted]

Cheese means that you spend the whole P2 away from the boss

Yea I am 10man. Edited it is for Frost mage. And I do not assume every mage is using engineering here.

I think cheesing is an incorrect word for a tactic which 95% of all 10 man guilds employ.