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  1. #481
    Scarab Lord Wildberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Pinkaminus-Piekus View Post
    Once more you are mistaken if you think it would go like this. Let me tell you what would happen.
    Well, first off considering your point of view on such matters, I don't really think you're telling me anything, moreso just rambling about some incoherent nonsense, but hey, let's kick this off shall we?

    All those factions I mentioned consist of Alliance and Horde which no longer wants to take part in politics and just want to help Azeroth from outside threats. Garrosh wants an Azeroth for the Horde leaving all the rest destroyed, doesn't care how he would do it and the other Horde leaders support his ideas. I don't know how simply to say it but you see those factions would want to continue working on restoring Azeroth and we now have a bit of a problem. You see they can't restore Azeroth if they are threatened into annihilation. I believe you now understand why they would help the Alliance. They wouldn't help the Alliance due to politics friend. They would help them because simply Garrosh would be a large threat to Azeroth and he would be against their Mission.
    Most of those factions had a "Third faction" that was their primary enemy. They aren't these altruistic organizations that deeply care about the well being of the denizens of Azeroth.To claim so only shows your grasp on lore is lacking. Furthermore, there's a quest in Deepholm stating that the Earthen Ring at least, prefers to stay out of faction conflicts, Let me quote Maruut Stonebinder:
    Our mission would be compromised should racial tensions be put above our goal.

    So All the Death Knights against Garrosh meaning every knowledge of how to counter Sylvannas
    Why would the entirety of the Ebon Blade stand against the Horde? We've already seen Koltira come to Sylvanas, there is absolutely nothing to say that the Ebon Blade would not have members joining the Horde. Sorry but that's just flat out wrong, you're claiming to have knowledge of something where no official lore exists.

    combined with Tirion, his Ashbringer and his crusade
    His Crusade and his Ashbringer aren't that powerful, and you're overestimating them (Which you accused me of doing, I find that hilarious). The Ashbringer is a powerful weapon, sure, but it didn't shatter Frostmourne alone, nor did Tirion. His Crusade? Where was his Crusade when Sylvanas was plagueing Gilneas? Where was his Crusade when she was resurrecting the fallen? They're not a force of reckoning in this world anymore.

    You're also making the claim that the multi-racial Crusade wouldn't see a small dip in membership due to faction ties, that's wrong.

    The Dragonflights even in this condition managed to pose a serious threat to the Lich King.
    Wrong again, I'm speaking of what happened following the Cataclysm (Go rewatch that Godawful cinematic, you've apparently forgotten it). The Lich King had been struck down long before that happened.

    A measly Horde would be no match as they would make quick work of the spawns of Galakras
    Are you serious right now? They let the Focusing Iris be stolen by the "measly Horde". Dragons aren't these all-powerful beings, especially after their "powers" diminished following the Cataclysm. Protip: Gryphons even posed a threat to Dragons.

    All of the Earthen Ring members would want to stop Garrosh from causing another Cataclysm with his misuse of the elements
    That's not what is implied by Maruut Stonebinder's quote, there may be some, like Muln Earthfury who are concerned about what Garrosh is doing, but racial ties are deeper than "factional" ones for the most part.

    All of the Cenarion Circle members along with the Demigods would eventually join the battle as Garrosh would destroy everything in his path to win the war
    Aside from the Vale and Theramore, what other land has been destroyed? Forests might be trimmed, some ground might be scarred, but again, not enough for the Tauren and Trolls to betray their races.

    The Kirin Tor along with the Blue Dragonflight masters of magic and Jaina with the Power of the Thunder King and the Focusing Iris would render the Anima Golems and the magical defences of the Horde useless
    The Kirin Tor that couldn't even prevent the theft of the Divine Bell? The Kirin Tor that were easily countered by Death Knights in the Second War when they were powerful and unified?

    Also, no that's not the way the Focusing Iris and the Anima works, sorry.

    You cant count the Sunreavers btw as those events wouldn't happen and the Sunreavers weren't even a 10% of the total Force of the Kirin Tor.
    Care to give me a source for that number?

    All I hear right now is "You can't count the force that would join your ranks because I say so lalalalalala"--You, 2014. The Sunreavers would join the Horde, having a unified Horde doesn't render the entirety of the Divine Bell arc obsolete.

    Finally the Golden Lotus and the Shando Pan would oppose Garrosh and I wouldn't underestimate them in your place.
    You mean the Golden Lotus that couldn't stand face to face with the Mogu, most of whom are "removed" from this equation due to the Heart of Y'shaarj. The Shado-Pan who flat out admitted to Vol'jin and Tyrathan that without the Horde and Alliance they could not stand against the Zandalari and Thunder King? A battle which was won by the Sunreavers and the Kirin Tor.

    The General thing is that they wouldn't join the Alliance due to politics but because Garrosh would be a threat to them also.
    No it's really not. Garrosh isn't actively trying to become the Lich King, nor is he hellbent on setting Nordrassil Ablaze, he's not even attempting to create another Cataclysm. There might be some shady areas of Garrosh, and there might be some outliers who join with the Alliance, but these factions by far would splinter as soon as the war escalated between a unified Horde v. a unified Alliance, and in the grand scheme of things wouldn't pose much of a threat.

    If you're going to make points from now on, at least try to make them difficult to counter.

    Proto Drakes were down by Cataclysm
    Then what the fuck am I doing fighting them at Bladefist Bay? Are you seriously trying to spout something this stupid? Please tell me I'm misunderstanding you here, I refuse to believe that anyone could even attempt to argue this.

    Magnataur were defeated in Wolfheart
    So all of the Magnataur went extinct then, right? There's no more Magnataur, or means of acquiring them left in Azeroth, right? Sorry, that's not how it works.

    The Demon Chain hasn't been used at all in the whole warcraft.
    I suggest reading Horde Quest text.

    Narkrall revealed to me the secret of his influence over the drakes in this area. I thought the Demon Chain was a myth, but he's had it all along.
    Do you have it? Yes? The fate of the Dragonmaw depends on the Demon Chain!
    --Zaela

    Sorry but there are some implications in that quest text which go against what you're trying to claim.

    The Kraken were destroyed in Tides of War
    And again this requires only the same counter as your magnataur argument. There are plenty more and there is a will to control them.

    [
    "More ships. More weapons. More elementals and beasts and demons obeying our commands.
    -Garrosh (Tides of War, 313).


    The Scroll cannot be countered as the story was in an alternate universe and that doesn't mean the goblins have it in this universe
    But the Goblins did find it in this universe and chose not to bring it with them due to what it would do to the world. Keep in mind this is after Gallywix was looking to keep artifacts as leverage for the Cartel's safety. With a united Horde, the Scroll would have been handed over to Garrosh instead of Ziya and Druz leaving it to rot in a Lorevault.

    The Ashbringer
    Which has failed the wielder in the past.

    Malfurion Stormrage
    If Malfurion is going to be counted for the Alliance. Thrall will join the Horde once more (The main reason he took arms against Garrosh in the end was the assassination attempt on Vol'jin, without that he would be forced to fight alongside the Horde against the Alliance).

    The Demigods of the Night Elves with all their capabilities
    Easily killed before. Easily killed again.

    Alliance Airship Nukes
    We don't know the full power of the bombs on the Alliance airship, however, I would prefer you stop calling them "nukes" that's just ignorant, such technology doesn't exist in WoW.

    The Dragonflights
    Which aren't the superpowered godly beings that you try to paint them as, sorry. Not to mention good old Wrathion would still be allied with the Horde in the scenario in which the other leaders just shut their mouths and followed Garrosh's orders.

    The Thunder King Powers
    Which are roughly matched in effectiveness by the anima, only the anima can be in more than one place at a time.

    The Focusing Iris which can control magic in the right hands and the right place
    Which is only an amplifier, I would suggest you actually read.

    The Good Elements of the Earthen Ring
    Already countered that, so how about NO.

    we don't know what the Ebon Blade have as Super Weapons.
    Best case scenario (As in miracle tier) Shadowmourne is in their hands. The Knockoff version of Frostmourne is hardly a "superweapon" though.

    So the Demon Chain has never been used in the whole warcraft and barely has any power of the original Dragon Soul
    I need proof of that. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

    the Ebon Blade and the Argent Crusade would make quick work out of the Plague and the Valkyr with their own tricks
    The Ebon Blade would splinter the Argent Crusade would see the withdrawal of Horde aligned races, they really don't have any tricks either.

    The Focusing Iris with the Powers of the Thunder King and the Blues would make quick work out of the Anima golems and make the magic capabilities of Garrosh's spellcasters useless
    As I've said before, you don't know how either of those work. The Powers of the Thunder king don't render Anima golems useless, and the Focusing Iris is simply an amplifier.

    The Earthen Ring would take on the Dark Shamans
    The Earthen Ring would split. You don't know that they would "Take on the Dark Shamans", and with Thrall on the side of the Horde, their most powerful member is gone.

    Dragonflights along with Gyrocopters and Gryphon riders would make quick work of the spawns of Galakras.
    The Dragonflights, again, are not in any way, shape, or form as powerful as you want them to be. And Gyrocopters and Gryphons can have fun with Wyverns, the Spawns of Galakras, Bats, Dragonhawks, and Goblin repurposed missiles (Jade Forest Horde Quest).

    So it seems that I still can use the Demigods, Malfurion and the Airship nukes while all your superweapons have been neutralised. I told you.
    Demigods aren't as powerful as you want them to be, nor is Malfurion, and the Alliance doesn't possess nuclear technology, nor have you neutralised anything. You have failed to tell me anything, instead you've simply typed a long list of incoherent nonsense that demonstrates not only that you don't understand this game's lore at all, but you will also either lie or stay willfully ignorant about information just to have an Alliance wankfest.

    Human Population alone exceeds the whole Horde population.
    RPG numbers aren't canon, but I'll throw you a bone here. The whole Human population, how many of those are active members of the Alliance army? Not the entirety that's for sure, they could be drafted but martial prowess isn't part of Human culture nearly as much as it is for the Orcs. You can have fun with your ragtag Human militia, I'll enjoy the fact that every adult man and woman can be conscripted easily into the Horde's military.

    As I said if you think a United Horde cannot be defeated by any means then don't be surprised when you see the United Iron Horde gets crushed by the weakened Azeroth.
    The Iron Horde is not synonymous with the Horde, nor is a Horde vs. Alliance conflict the same as an Iron Horde vs. "Horde"+Alliance+AU Draenei+AU Stormreaver Clan conflict.

    One more thing. Something like this did happen many times in our Earth's history. Napoleon and Hitler had a United front of allies but they couldn't win against the whole World.
    Napoleon was an idiot who opened up a second front in a continental war. Hitler did the same thing. They also opened up that second front only to lose to the weather.

    I would make a comment about you recieving your History lessons in Tel Aviv, but you should already see why that's a ridiculous comparison that really misrepresents history.

    2/10 Would counter again.

    Let me give you some parting advice, read the lore before you discuss it. Maybe Warcraft lore isn't for you, I would recommend something that's a little more basic (Which is funny because Warcraft isn't complex by any means) but I already see you enjoy the storytelling elements of MLP so you've really hit the bottom as far as storytelling goes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    Oh Jesus Christ what you did there.....I can already call a massive wall of text from Wildberry for counter this...this is going to be long.
    Hahahaha, oh my God. Yea, what I wrote was a little lengthy, sorry. I have to express how wrong he is, it's not really my fault! I actually think this takes the cake for the longest post I've written. Oh well, time to see if the deserter debuff is off yet!
    Quote Originally Posted by ImportantLoreInformation View Post
    Seriously. Can this guy please be banned from the forums?
    Quote Originally Posted by JimPaladin View Post
    Could we just get this fucking clown a ban or something? Pretty please?

  2. #482
    I am Murloc! Arrashi's Avatar
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    Wildberry as always delivers.

  3. #483
    Scarab Lord Wildberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Pinkaminus-Piekus View Post
    Ok I am stopping now as we probably have different opinions. Do you happen to know when this book comes out?
    You don't just get to post a bunch of stuff that is flat out wrong, chalk it up to opinions and walk away.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Wildberry as always delivers.
    I try, I really do.
    Quote Originally Posted by ImportantLoreInformation View Post
    Seriously. Can this guy please be banned from the forums?
    Quote Originally Posted by JimPaladin View Post
    Could we just get this fucking clown a ban or something? Pretty please?

  4. #484
    And as I said before this is just your opinion backed up by something that you think it counts which in truth is really nothing.

    Once more you have no idea what those Neutral Factions represent and how they operate. Let me spell it out for you. Those Neutral Factions have a Mission to repair the damage to Azeroth from former Third Factions as you call them. That doesn't mean they will tolerate Garrosh. Let me spell it better. When Garrosh becomes a Third Faction they won't simply stand idle. It happened with the Kirin Tor, the Shando Pan, The Golden Lotus and various members of those factions opposed Garrosh at times. So there goes your First statement of interference. It is not about the Alliance. They would simply oppose the one who would put their existence in danger.

    Let me see. You have seen Koltira to the Horde and Thassarian to the Alliance and you automatically speculate that they are split in two. You also automatically speculate that they wouldn't turn on Sylvannas if she becomes a NEW Lich King and decides to kill them?

    The Crusade my clueless friend are not that powerless as you think and Sylvannas is not that powerful as you think. Yes when Gilneas happened they were just having an eye on her because as that moment Sylvannas hasn't passed that Red Line yet. However how much do you think this will hold? If they are threatened do you take them for fools that they won't respond?

    The Dragonflights have lost their powers but they are still formidable. You are mistaken if you underestimate them and you are mistaken if you think that they will sit idly by if Garrosh threatens them. You are mistaken also to speculate that they are weak just because of the Iris Incident.

    And once more you are clueless. Yes they may have Racial Ties as you want to call it but the Earthen Ring will respond to Garrosh if they are threatened to be removed from existence or decides to make another Cataclysm. As for the Cenarion Circle you are not paying attention of what Garrosh's war is doing or the threat factor.

    How did you managed with the Golden Lotus to correct yourself? You really need to decide. Did the Mogu got destroyed by the Heart or did The Kirin Tor and the Sunreavers destroyed the Thunder King and his Forces? You do realise that the Golden Lotus and the Shando Pan are fighting the Sha, The Mogu, the Zandalari and the Mantid. Of course they are thanking us for our assistance. Garrosh idiocy was what caused all this in Pandaria. His idiocy wakened all the Sha that wakened the Mantid earlier, the 7 Sha Emerging from everywhere and their Forces were spread thin. That doesn't mean however that they were weak. After all they managed to overthrow the mogu empire when they were common slaves. You also forgot the fact that Taran Zhu was ready to purge the Shrine from all the Horde and had the power to do it quickly and efficiently but didn't do to give the rest of the Horde a chance to get rid of Garrosh.

    The Kirin Tor didn't prevented the theft of the bell due to the Sunreaver traitors and using the Death Knights of the Second War is also irrelevant as it is a completely different situation now. And the Focusing Iris on the right place at the right time can devastate even Azeroth. Don't look at me. Malygos claimed it since you like quotes. The Anima Golems need the Anima Blood to work but have in mind that the Powers of the Thunder King also includes the knowledge of how to deactivate them as the THunder King is the one that made them. How do you know that Jaina doesn't have the knowledge how to deactivate them and render them useless?

    The General thing is that if Garrosh decides that The Horde is to take over Azeroth and all the rest must die then everyone on the neutral factions won't have a choice but to fight or face extinction.Its as simple as it is.

    Now the Super Weapons again. The Proto Drakes were defeated in Cataclysm. The ones you fight at Bladefist Bay are the Spawns of Galakras. The Magnataur were defeated in Wolf Heart and nowhere else in game or lore showed that Garrosh had more of them. The Kraken were destroyed in the Tides of War and nowhere else mentions them anymore. The Scroll as I said cannot be countered as it was only in that story and the goblins didn't take it with them this time so count that out. Even if the Horde were United the Goblins are thinking with their pockets. If it was any other race it would have been given to Garrosh but its the greedy goblins. About the Demon Chain. Have you ever seen it in action? Have you ever seen it in lore apart from that Quest which asks you to bring it to Zaela?No you have no idea how it Works and you automatically make it a Super weapon. Until I see it doing something I simply won't consider it a serious factor. The Dragonflights? I answered it before if they are formidable or not. One last thing. You do know that Gyrocopters were moping the Horde in the whole MOP campaign right or have you done the Horde quests only? You do know that Gryphon riders can easily make short work out of the Spawns of Galakras because they already made short work out of the enslaved full grown dragons in the Second War.Finally the Alliance Airship Bomb. I don't know if it's a nuke or not but seems like a really big bomb. I am sure it is not something for decoration there.

    You can't suggest that the Horde population is even Near to the one of the Alliance. The Orcs barely filled a couple of ships to go to Kalimdor, the Tauren were on the brink of extinction, the Darkspear were just a few that were left that joined Thrall on the way to Kalimdor, the Blood Elves lost 90% of their population from the Scourge and the only that seem to have a good Number are the Forsaken. The Alliance on the other hand have the Survivor Draenei which are also few, The Gnomes which are few but all the other races have a lot of population. I don't really know if the RPG Books are canon or not but unless you have something which you can use to counter it I prefer to follow it's numbers. The Human's have a 30% of their population in military status. You can bring all your women and men in the orcish military and it won't be more than one third of that 30%. We are talking about that huge difference.

    The Iron Horde you see are a formidable enemy and they will come to Azeroth as Garrosh wants to show what a United Orc Front can do. At this moment the Horde is severely weakened to the fact that they barely can defend. The Alliance along with the Neutral Factions have to face this Iron Horde as they will probably be the main defence. This is the best example to see how a United faction war could go.

    One last thing. Napoleon and Hitler is a very good example to show why even a United Axis couldn't fight the whole World. You may not like to admit it but noone in history managed to defeat the whole World. At some point every empire fell. Even my Byzantine Empire which managed to hold for 1000 years fell in the end.

    Let me give you my parting advice. Stop trying to lecture me about the lore of the game. I've been playing this game from the First Warcraft and didn't discovered the game in Cataclysm when you appeared. Secondly what I have said already happened in each patch of MOP so the more you continue the more embarrasing you're becoming. Thirdly I have seen a lot of others saying the same things over and over from WOTLK in those forums only to dissapear after being embarrased by the story never again to appear. As I said if you believe you are right then let's see what will happen when a United Iron Horde will attack as this will be the best test.


    Now I don't wish to continue this pointless discussion again. We are talking about the Trial.

  5. #485
    Pit Lord Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Pinkaminus-Piekus View Post
    Now I don't wish to continue this pointless discussion again. We are talking about the Trial.
    I hope you're aware how much demanding is saying this after that wall of text, right?

  6. #486
    I am aware yes. It's just that we have to stop going this back and forth as we have two different opinions. So ok. I promise to end the discussion. He can reply anything he wants if he wishes to have the final Word but I do not intend to continue this anymore as gameplay issues are meddling with the lore here and I don't think any of us can use them as facts. In the end it doesn't really matter as the story went like how Blizzard wanted it. Garrosh lost, the Horde was fractured and lost the war well at least on Garrosh's part and nothing can change that. The Trial and the Warlords of Draenor is the next part we should be focusing now.

  7. #487
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Pinkaminus-Piekus View Post
    Once more you have no idea what those Neutral Factions represent and how they operate. Let me spell it out for you. Those Neutral Factions have a Mission to repair the damage to Azeroth from former Third Factions as you call them. That doesn't mean they will tolerate Garrosh. Let me spell it better. When Garrosh becomes a Third Faction they won't simply stand idle. It happened with the Kirin Tor, the Shando Pan, The Golden Lotus and various members of those factions opposed Garrosh at times. So there goes your First statement of interference. It is not about the Alliance. They would simply oppose the one who would put their existence in danger.
    The other neutral faction are too diverse to actually act unified against either faction, even if they decide to do something against the horde in this scenario, they would split with many of their members supporting the horde and vice versa, to assume that the neutral factions would only support the Alliance is just flat out wrong.

    Let me see. You have seen Koltira to the Horde and Thassarian to the Alliance and you automatically speculate that they are split in two. You also automatically speculate that they wouldn't turn on Sylvannas if she becomes a NEW Lich King and decides to kill them?
    The Knights of the ebon blade sent many of their representatives to their former factions, many death knights no longer belong to them.

    The Crusade my clueless friend are not that powerless as you think and Sylvannas is not that powerful as you think. Yes when Gilneas happened they were just having an eye on her because as that moment Sylvannas hasn't passed that Red Line yet. However how much do you think this will hold? If they are threatened do you take them for fools that they won't respond?
    The crusade is currently besieged by gnolls and they are a multi raced organization, if the crusade would support one faction it would loose members to the other. Whether it is Alliance or horde.

    The Dragonflights have lost their powers but they are still formidable. You are mistaken if you underestimate them and you are mistaken if you think that they will sit idly by if Garrosh threatens them. You are mistaken also to speculate that they are weak just because of the Iris Incident.
    The Dragonflifghts are invredible weak right now and have their hands full, the infinite Dragonflight will soon be born, the blue dragonflight ceased to exist, the green dragonflight was decimated in the emerald dream and the reds aren't doing so well either, not to mention Dragons can no longer have children, they are already doomed to extinction.

    And once more you are clueless. Yes they may have Racial Ties as you want to call it but the Earthen Ring will respond to Garrosh if they are threatened to be removed from existence or decides to make another Cataclysm. As for the Cenarion Circle you are not paying attention of what Garrosh's war is doing or the threat factor.
    If Garrosh decides to make another cataclysm, but he never did, so why should the erathen ring interfere?

    How did you managed with the Golden Lotus to correct yourself? You really need to decide. Did the Mogu got destroyed by the Heart or did The Kirin Tor and the Sunreavers destroyed the Thunder King and his Forces? You do realise that the Golden Lotus and the Shando Pan are fighting the Sha, The Mogu, the Zandalari and the Mantid. Of course they are thanking us for our assistance. Garrosh idiocy was what caused all this in Pandaria. His idiocy wakened all the Sha that wakened the Mantid earlier, the 7 Sha Emerging from everywhere and their Forces were spread thin. That doesn't mean however that they were weak. After all they managed to overthrow the mogu empire when they were common slaves. You also forgot the fact that Taran Zhu was ready to purge the Shrine from all the Horde and had the power to do it quickly and efficiently but didn't do to give the rest of the Horde a chance to get rid of Garrosh.
    The pandaren never overthrew the mogu alone, they had assistance from every other race on Pandaria and the night elven empire.

    The Kirin Tor didn't prevented the theft of the bell due to the Sunreaver traitors and using the Death Knights of the Second War is also irrelevant as it is a completely different situation now. And the Focusing Iris on the right place at the right time can devastate even Azeroth. Don't look at me. Malygos claimed it since you like quotes. The Anima Golems need the Anima Blood to work but have in mind that the Powers of the Thunder King also includes the knowledge of how to deactivate them as the THunder King is the one that made them. How do you know that Jaina doesn't have the knowledge how to deactivate them and render them useless?
    The focusing iris is not that powerful, in the combination with the nexus that channeled all the ley energy of Azeroth at the time it was very powerful, but the iris alone merely enhances the abilities of a caster, I really don't know where you get all this undoing someone elses magic nonsense from. The portion of Lei Shen power does in no way or form contain knowledge, Jaina just got a very powerful lightning enchant on her staff nothing more. And considering a ranger recognizes a powerful artifact faster than Jaina I wouldn't put it past her if she overlooked quite a few things.

    The General thing is that if Garrosh decides that The Horde is to take over Azeroth and all the rest must die then everyone on the neutral factions won't have a choice but to fight or face extinction.Its as simple as it is.
    Garrosh original idea was mere conquest no genocide, before the other horde races stood up against him.

    Now the Super Weapons again. The Proto Drakes were defeated in Cataclysm. The ones you fight at Bladefist Bay are the Spawns of Galakras. The Magnataur were defeated in Wolf Heart and nowhere else in game or lore showed that Garrosh had more of them. About the Demon Chain. Have you ever seen it in action? Have you ever seen it in lore apart from that Quest which asks you to bring it to Zaela?No you have no idea how it Works and you automatically make it a Super weapon. Until I see it doing something I simply won't consider it a serious factor. The Dragonflights? I answered it before if they are formidable or not. One last thing. You do know that Gyrocopters were moping the Horde in the whole MOP campaign right or have you done the Horde quests only? You do know that Gryphon riders can easily make short work out of the Spawns of Galakras because they already made short work out of the enslaved full grown dragons in the Second War.Finally the Alliance Airship Bomb. I don't know if it's a nuke or not but seems like a really big bomb. I am sure it is not something for decoration there.
    The protodrakes are not finished they still thrive in Northrend we never set out to wipe them all out, they still roam that continent and with the Scourge and Vry'kul in disarray they are most likely thriving. Garrosh could get more from there, the same goes for the Magnataur, they are not extinct. The demon chain was used on Galakras in front of Orgrimmar and to enslave a black dragon in the Twilight highlands.

    The Human's have a 30% of their population in military status. You can bring all your women and men in the orcish military and it won't be more than one third of that 30%. We are talking about that huge difference.
    I want a source for that and no race in the Alliance has a big population, except the dwarves, because these guys never suffered any significant loses in recent years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Pinkaminus-Piekus View Post
    I am aware yes. It's just that we have to stop going this back and forth as we have two different opinions. So ok. I promise to end the discussion. He can reply anything he wants if he wishes to have the final Word but I do not intend to continue this anymore as gameplay issues are meddling with the lore here and I don't think any of us can use them as facts. In the end it doesn't really matter as the story went like how Blizzard wanted it. Garrosh lost, the Horde was fractured and lost the war well at least on Garrosh's part and nothing can change that. The Trial and the Warlords of Draenor is the next part we should be focusing now.
    The story was more or less the second war, the horde lost the war due to infighting, though instead of being disbanded like last time it continues to exist.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  8. #488
    Combat we were actually discussing on a scenario of genoside not conquest. Wouldn't those factions defend themselves in a case of genoside by any of those two factions? Let's be honest. If you were Tirion and suddenly one day Garrosh decided that you and everyone on your faction will be destroyed along with the Alliance in order for the Horde to reign supreme what would you do? And yes you are right Combat about the Demon Chain but still that doesn't make it an unbeatable Super weapon. Garrosh could indeed get more proto drakes or Magnataur from Northrend but he didn't. We are talking about a possible scenario that would happen with what we have right now and not what we could have cause in a possible all out war the Alliance could also have equivalent means of defence in those things. Noone really knows what those Anima Golems can do. What we know is that the Focusing Iris have tremendous powers on the right hands in the right place. I never overestimate the Iris. I just mention what I know from the story and the potential of the weapon. The Powers of the Thunder king is not a measly lightning enchant. Noone knows what Jaina gained when she gained his powers. Only the developers might know. The only source I have for the Alliance population and the % that they have in their army is mostly the RPG Books. I know that you may say that they are not canon but unless we have something better I prefer to follow it than nothing.

    The story has some similarities and some differences from the second war but the same result. The Horde was bound to lose the war just like in the second war because they have different races with different ideals. They would never be United in a genoside scenario as their ideals are different.
    Last edited by Darth-Pinkaminus-Piekus; 2014-03-16 at 02:33 AM.

  9. #489
    Pit Lord Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The story was more or less the second war, the horde lost the war due to infighting, though instead of being disbanded like last time it continues to exist.
    Yeah, mostly because, unlike Gul'dan, the Stormreaver and the Twilight's Hammer, the Rebellion turned against Garrosh but actually also had an active role in his dethroning. In other words, this time the Alliance didn't have all the merit for the win, and it's for this that the Horde haven't been "dismantled" like Jaina suggested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Pinkaminus-Piekus View Post
    Combat we were actually discussing on a scenario of genoside not conquest. Wouldn't those factions defend themselves in a case of genoside by any of those two factions?
    But Garrosh's concern has always been conquest, not genocide, like the Iron Horde. So which is the point of discussing this scenario?

  10. #490
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Pinkaminus-Piekus View Post
    Combat we were actually discussing on a scenario of genoside not conquest. Wouldn't those factions defend themselves in a case of genoside by any of those two factions?
    Even then they would splinter, most neutral factions are made up of various different races. There would be massive infighting. It doesn't matter if the Alliance or horde would start such a war, if the neutrals get dragged in they will cease to exist, with the member races returning to their faction.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  11. #491
    If I'm not mistaken, are people saying that Garrosh and his Horde would never have lost had it not been for the rest of the Horde leaving him, and that Garrosh only turned out the way he did because the other Horde faction leaders rubbed him the wrong way (like Zul'Jin threatening him, or Cairne challenging him), and not the other way around?

  12. #492
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krek01 View Post
    If I'm not mistaken, are people saying that Garrosh and his Horde would never have lost had it not been for the rest of the Horde leaving him, and that Garrosh only turned out the way he did because the other Horde faction leaders rubbed him the wrong way (like Zul'Jin threatening him, or Cairne challenging him), and not the other way around?
    Did you read the books? If you did you can see subtle hints that Garrosh always wanted to impress the other leaders, always wanted to inspire them to have them back him, this changed once he realized he could not really win them over and he didn't know how he could change that. He started to resent them and as an extension their people.

    And yes a truly united horde would have most likely won the conflict.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  13. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Did you read the books? If you did you can see subtle hints that Garrosh always wanted to impress the other leaders, always wanted to inspire them to have them back him, this changed once he realized he could not really win them over and he didn't know how he could change that. He started to resent them and as an extension their people.

    And yes a truly united horde would have most likely won the conflict.
    horde esp orcs and undead can only lick varian's boot begging for mercy

  14. #494
    That is the point. Most neutral factions have races on their members but they are there because they want to do something good for Azeroth and not take part on a war. If Garrosh decides that all those factions must be destroyed that means all of their members must be slaughtered and their World taken what do you think they may do? Won't they fight back?

    That is what I am trying to say. A United horde will never happen. They dont have the same ideals. If they accept Garrosh they accept genoside and that will make them automatically an enemy of those factions by the time he decides a complete genoside of everything non Horde.

  15. #495
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianus View Post
    horde esp orcs and undead can only lick varian's boot begging for mercy
    There is a reason Varian did not continue the war, because he though an ongoing conflict would cost too much lives, if the Alliance could have defeated the remaining horde without significant loses he would and should have done it.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Did you read the books? If you did you can see subtle hints that Garrosh always wanted to impress the other leaders, always wanted to inspire them to have them back him, this changed once he realized he could not really win them over and he didn't know how he could change that. He started to resent them and as an extension their people.
    For your information, no. I have no read the Warcrafts books, so my knowledge on subject like this is limited. Most of the knowledge I have is from the games, what other people are saying, and WoWpedia.

    Anyway, who is to blame for the fracturing of the Horde at the start? Was it the other faction leaders for not giving Garrosh a chance to prove himself, or was it Garrosh for trying too hard and potentially rubbing the other faction leaders the wrong way?

  17. #497
    No Combat. Wrathion and Metzen himself claimed that Varian had the power to finish the rest of the Horde but chose not to as further bloodshed would be pointless.

  18. #498
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Pinkaminus-Piekus View Post
    That is the point. Most neutral factions have races on their members but they are there because they want to do something good for Azeroth and not take part on a war. If Garrosh decides that all those factions must be destroyed that means all of their members must be slaughtered and their World taken what do you think they may do? Won't they fight back?
    If a war of genocide is waged by either faction and the neutrals get dragged into it, do you think they will slaughter their own people sack their own homeland, most likely killing their own family? Of course they wouldn't.

    That is what I am trying to say. A United horde will never happen. They dont have the same ideals. If they accept Garrosh they accept genoside and that will make them automatically an enemy of those factions by the time he decides a complete genoside of everything non Horde.
    Garrosh's original intention was not genocide, that only happened after the other leaders were unwilling to trust him and questioned his every move. A united horde is very possible, after all we have a united Alliance nowadays and those guys could hardly wait to stab each other in the back after the second war.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  19. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Pinkaminus-Piekus View Post
    That is the point. Most neutral factions have races on their members but they are there because they want to do something good for Azeroth and not take part on a war. If Garrosh decides that all those factions must be destroyed that means all of their members must be slaughtered and their World taken what do you think they may do? Won't they fight back?
    You're assuming that Garrosh wanted to slaughter everything for reasons.

    He wanted to destroy the Alliance and the Rebellion because both were oppossers. Whetever he made something against a neutral faction, it was with second-guess (like with the Focusing-Iris, where he killed five blue dragons with the sole purpose of getting a weapon against the Alliance) otherwise there is no serious reason for which he should attack neutral organizations if they mind their own businesses and don't attempt to oppose him.

  20. #500
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Pinkaminus-Piekus View Post
    No Combat. Wrathion and Metzen himself claimed that Varian had the power to finish the rest of the Horde but chose not to as further bloodshed would be pointless.
    That is exactly what I said, ultimately the Alliance would win, but it would be a costly victory and Varian was unwilling to pay that price. Heck he tells you that in Orgrimmar.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

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