Christie Golden - War Crimes excerpt [SPOILERS]

[Darth-Piekus]

Combat we were actually discussing on a scenario of genoside not conquest. Wouldn't those factions defend themselves in a case of genoside by any of those two factions? Let's be honest. If you were Tirion and suddenly one day Garrosh decided that you and everyone on your faction will be destroyed along with the Alliance in order for the Horde to reign supreme what would you do? And yes you are right Combat about the Demon Chain but still that doesn't make it an unbeatable Super weapon. Garrosh could indeed get more proto drakes or Magnataur from Northrend but he didn't. We are talking about a possible scenario that would happen with what we have right now and not what we could have cause in a possible all out war the Alliance could also have equivalent means of defence in those things. Noone really knows what those Anima Golems can do. What we know is that the Focusing Iris have tremendous powers on the right hands in the right place. I never overestimate the Iris. I just mention what I know from the story and the potential of the weapon. The Powers of the Thunder king is not a measly lightning enchant. Noone knows what Jaina gained when she gained his powers. Only the developers might know. The only source I have for the Alliance population and the % that they have in their army is mostly the RPG Books. I know that you may say that they are not canon but unless we have something better I prefer to follow it than nothing.

The story has some similarities and some differences from the second war but the same result. The Horde was bound to lose the war just like in the second war because they have different races with different ideals. They would never be United in a genoside scenario as their ideals are different.

[Zulkhan]

The story was more or less the second war, the horde lost the war due to infighting, though instead of being disbanded like last time it continues to exist.

Yeah, mostly because, unlike Gul'dan, the Stormreaver and the Twilight's Hammer, the Rebellion turned against Garrosh but actually also had an active role in his dethroning. In other words, this time the Alliance didn't have all the merit for the win, and it's for this that the Horde haven't been "dismantled" like Jaina suggested.

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Combat we were actually discussing on a scenario of genoside not conquest. Wouldn't those factions defend themselves in a case of genoside by any of those two factions?

But Garrosh's concern has always been conquest, not genocide, like the Iron Horde. So which is the point of discussing this scenario?

[Combatbutler]

Combat we were actually discussing on a scenario of genoside not conquest. Wouldn't those factions defend themselves in a case of genoside by any of those two factions?

Even then they would splinter, most neutral factions are made up of various different races. There would be massive infighting. It doesn't matter if the Alliance or horde would start such a war, if the neutrals get dragged in they will cease to exist, with the member races returning to their faction.

[Krek01]

If I'm not mistaken, are people saying that Garrosh and his Horde would never have lost had it not been for the rest of the Horde leaving him, and that Garrosh only turned out the way he did because the other Horde faction leaders rubbed him the wrong way (like Zul'Jin threatening him, or Cairne challenging him), and not the other way around?

[Combatbutler]

If I'm not mistaken, are people saying that Garrosh and his Horde would never have lost had it not been for the rest of the Horde leaving him, and that Garrosh only turned out the way he did because the other Horde faction leaders rubbed him the wrong way (like Zul'Jin threatening him, or Cairne challenging him), and not the other way around?

Did you read the books? If you did you can see subtle hints that Garrosh always wanted to impress the other leaders, always wanted to inspire them to have them back him, this changed once he realized he could not really win them over and he didn't know how he could change that. He started to resent them and as an extension their people.

And yes a truly united horde would have most likely won the conflict.

[Ianus]

Did you read the books? If you did you can see subtle hints that Garrosh always wanted to impress the other leaders, always wanted to inspire them to have them back him, this changed once he realized he could not really win them over and he didn't know how he could change that. He started to resent them and as an extension their people.

And yes a truly united horde would have most likely won the conflict.

horde esp orcs and undead can only lick varian's boot begging for mercy

[Darth-Piekus]

That is the point. Most neutral factions have races on their members but they are there because they want to do something good for Azeroth and not take part on a war. If Garrosh decides that all those factions must be destroyed that means all of their members must be slaughtered and their World taken what do you think they may do? Won't they fight back?

That is what I am trying to say. A United horde will never happen. They dont have the same ideals. If they accept Garrosh they accept genoside and that will make them automatically an enemy of those factions by the time he decides a complete genoside of everything non Horde.

[Combatbutler]

horde esp orcs and undead can only lick varian's boot begging for mercy

There is a reason Varian did not continue the war, because he though an ongoing conflict would cost too much lives, if the Alliance could have defeated the remaining horde without significant loses he would and should have done it.

[Krek01]

Did you read the books? If you did you can see subtle hints that Garrosh always wanted to impress the other leaders, always wanted to inspire them to have them back him, this changed once he realized he could not really win them over and he didn't know how he could change that. He started to resent them and as an extension their people.

For your information, no. I have no read the Warcrafts books, so my knowledge on subject like this is limited. Most of the knowledge I have is from the games, what other people are saying, and WoWpedia.

Anyway, who is to blame for the fracturing of the Horde at the start? Was it the other faction leaders for not giving Garrosh a chance to prove himself, or was it Garrosh for trying too hard and potentially rubbing the other faction leaders the wrong way?

[Darth-Piekus]

No Combat. Wrathion and Metzen himself claimed that Varian had the power to finish the rest of the Horde but chose not to as further bloodshed would be pointless.

[Combatbutler]

That is the point. Most neutral factions have races on their members but they are there because they want to do something good for Azeroth and not take part on a war. If Garrosh decides that all those factions must be destroyed that means all of their members must be slaughtered and their World taken what do you think they may do? Won't they fight back?

If a war of genocide is waged by either faction and the neutrals get dragged into it, do you think they will slaughter their own people sack their own homeland, most likely killing their own family? Of course they wouldn't.

That is what I am trying to say. A United horde will never happen. They dont have the same ideals. If they accept Garrosh they accept genoside and that will make them automatically an enemy of those factions by the time he decides a complete genoside of everything non Horde.

Garrosh's original intention was not genocide, that only happened after the other leaders were unwilling to trust him and questioned his every move. A united horde is very possible, after all we have a united Alliance nowadays and those guys could hardly wait to stab each other in the back after the second war.

[Zulkhan]

That is the point. Most neutral factions have races on their members but they are there because they want to do something good for Azeroth and not take part on a war. If Garrosh decides that all those factions must be destroyed that means all of their members must be slaughtered and their World taken what do you think they may do? Won't they fight back?

You're assuming that Garrosh wanted to slaughter everything for reasons.

He wanted to destroy the Alliance and the Rebellion because both were oppossers. Whetever he made something against a neutral faction, it was with second-guess (like with the Focusing-Iris, where he killed five blue dragons with the sole purpose of getting a weapon against the Alliance) otherwise there is no serious reason for which he should attack neutral organizations if they mind their own businesses and don't attempt to oppose him.

[Combatbutler]

No Combat. Wrathion and Metzen himself claimed that Varian had the power to finish the rest of the Horde but chose not to as further bloodshed would be pointless.

That is exactly what I said, ultimately the Alliance would win, but it would be a costly victory and Varian was unwilling to pay that price. Heck he tells you that in Orgrimmar.

[Darth-Piekus]

There is only one way then to see if a United Horde can win. Let's see what a United Iron Horde can do against a weakened Azeroth. It is almost the same situation. Let's see how that plays out.

[Combatbutler]

There is only one way then to see if a United Horde can win. Let's see what a United Iron Horde can do against a weakened Azeroth. It is almost the same situation. Let's see how that plays out.

It is not the same situation, alone for the fact, that the iron horde is no player faction and that alone makes it impossible for them to win in wow, since blizzard lacks the balls to actually implement something like the players utterly failing to stop a threat.

[Zulkhan]

There is a reason Varian did not continue the war, because he though an ongoing conflict would cost too much lives, if the Alliance could have defeated the remaining horde without significant loses he would and should have done it.

In practical ways, yeah, he should have done it.

But he should have spent far less time in saying how the Alliance fought for the "good fight", instead of just saying "we just fight for ourselves, our safety and well-being and want to end this Horde mess once and for all", without all this "rightousness" and "justice" constantly and repeatedly spoken.

[Combatbutler]

But he should have spent far less time in saying how the Alliance fought for the "good fight", instead of just saying "we just fight for themselves and want to end this Horde mess once and for all", without all this "rightousness" and "justice" constantly and repeatedly spoken.

The Alliance has been reduced to that and it is a shame really. During the first and second war it was really interesting, because of their infighting etc. but nowadays they are just so bland. Heck the greatest asshole in the Alliance is a tame puppy nowadays, yeah I am looking at you Genn.

[Maxilian]

What mistakes did he make in Northrend? Underestimating the strength ofONE scourgelord? Bullshit. Vol'jin is an idiot and the Horde would be better off if he had actually died in "A Dagger in the Dark".

Not that, i was talking about looking to fight the alliance when he shouldn't have (in the Dalaran -before Ulduar- and theramore -when Thrall and Varian were trying to get peace between the horde and the alliance)

I don't know Maxilian? What is the problem with a weapon of that nature? It's basically the nuclear warhead of Warcraft. For the record, the world has seen one of those. Why don't countries with Nuclear technology just fight all of their wars with those?

Yeah i know, also the forsaken are using a less potent plague (The forsaken didn't wanted to use the full powered blight in Southshore)

Also, I don't think the fact that Sylvanas couldn't win a war against an isolated and weakened nation without using the plague is really helping her case.

When she started using the plague was when they started to push back (after the Cathedral problem)

That might have been the case in Tirisfal, but by the time The Battle for Andorhal rolls around, she's not even offering the newly raised dead a choice anymore, which is where the line should be drawn. If they can't replenish their ranks on their own and need to forcefully resurrect the corpses of their enemies, then they're in the "10/10 would crusade against" territory.

That have been explained before, when soldiers get ressurected in battle they get ressurected with a post death trauma and come out a little pissed and a little out of their mind :P, so the forsaken use these in their advantage and put them to fight their enemies, after the post death trauma is gone they give them the ultimatum

It all depends, the assassination attempt on Vol'jin was completely justified. The Horde was crumbling apart and Vol'jin was a known rabble-rouser, gotta do everything for the security of the state and all.

As far as citizens go, that's not specifically Garrosh, instead it's Malkorok, whom Garrosh has placed on a long leash.

Well Malkorok was representing Garrosh and Garrosh never did anything to stop him, so.. when a leg do something and the head doesn't do anything to stop the leg, the head is the one at fault.

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It is not the same situation, alone for the fact, that the iron horde is no player faction and that alone makes it impossible for them to win in wow, since blizzard lacks the balls to actually implement something like the players utterly failing to stop a threat.

I would love to see the players failing to stop a threat

Also... remenber that we also have the Dranei and the frostwolf clan from Draenor helping us fight the Iron Horde

[Wildberry]

Wall of incoherent, dishonest, misrepresenting, historically inaccurate text with a plea for no response at the end

We can end the discussion, I would be more than happy to, considering you won't acknowledge fault in your original premise and you're still grasping for straws and will not admit that you're wrong, not to mention the fact that you seemed to have not only completely missed my point. I won't even begin to get into your bias.

However, there is one chunk I would like to respond to.

Let me give you my parting advice. Stop trying to lecture me about the lore of the game. I've been playing this game from the First Warcraft and didn't discovered the game in Cataclysm when you appeared. Secondly what I have said already happened in each patch of MOP so the more you continue the more embarrasing you're becoming. Thirdly I have seen a lot of others saying the same things over and over from WOTLK in those forums only to dissapear after being embarrased by the story never again to appear. As I said if you believe you are right then let's see what will happen when a United Iron Horde will attack as this will be the best test.

I'll lecture you as I please because you're spouting shit that isn't true, if you've been playing since the launch of Warcraft: Orcs and Humans I would suggest you replay those games, reread all of the books, and go get loremaster on an Alliance and a Horde toon, because somewhere along the way you started tuning a lot of the lore out.

I don't really care what you predicted every patch of MoP, the outcome wasn't surprising, not to mention it's not the point that I'm arguing.

I would also like to point out that MMO-Champion accounts are not synonymous with how long I've been playing WoW, or how familiar I am with the Warcraft series (Played all three games, started WoW back in '04). To try and make the claim that you're currently making, is hilariously stupid.

And again, you are so far lost to delusion, that you believe the Iron Horde is in any way shape or form the same as the Horde v. Alliance conflict.

But yes, let's end this discussion, I prefer to argue with the honest, not those who twist facts and flat out make up lore.

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Not that, i was talking about looking to fight the alliance when he shouldn't have (in the Dalaran -before Ulduar- and theramore -when Thrall and Varian were trying to get peace between the horde and the alliance)

At every scenario where Garrosh was acting like a hothead, Varian was doing the exact same. It's hard to fault one party in a sitatuion where both have played to role of provokers and provoked

Yeah i know, also the forsaken are using a less potent plague (The forsaken didn't wanted to use the full powered blight in Southshore)

And yet look at Southshore. Watering down a banned weapon doesn't bypass a ban, nor does it make it any more right.

When she started using the plague was when they started to push back (after the Cathedral problem)

Again, the "Cathedral problem" doesn't help her case. Edge of Night sure did put her in a positive light, but she botched the conquest of Gilneas. Losing a war is no excuse to use something like the plague.

That have been explained before, when soldiers get ressurected in battle they get ressurected with a post death trauma and come out a little pissed and a little out of their mind :P, so the forsaken use these in their advantage and put them to fight their enemies, after the post death trauma is gone they give them the ultimatum

Which isn't offering them a choice. Technically they do have a choice, but in reality they don't. An ultimatum after committing heinous acts against those that were once friends, is not really a "fair choice" nor is it morally justifiable.

Well Malkorok was representing Garrosh and Garrosh never did anything to stop him, so.. when a leg do something and the head doesn't do anything to stop the leg, the head is the one at fault.

But Garrosh and Malkorok aren't one person. Garrosh may have let it slide, Tides of War implies that he didn't know exactly what Malkorok did, but let it happen anyway. He just wanted dissenters and rabble rousers silenced, which is completely justifiable and something that the Blood Elves were doing long before the Kor'kron

I would love to see the players failing to stop a threat

Won't happen in World of Comicbookcraft.

Also... remenber that we also have the Dranei and the frostwolf clan from Draenor helping us fight the Iron Horde

And the Stormreaver Clan. Possibly the Arrakoa too, since they seem to be located conveniently near Shattered Hand lands

[Lastlivingsoul]

Well I dunno, maybe because he was officially appointed as Warchief? Or maybe because Horde could use some unity in times of Cataclysm? But no, they chose to branch off and stroke their egos thinking how morally right they are, while Garrosh was busy dragging the Horde out of Cataclysm crisis all by himself.

Garrosh didn't solve anything during the Cataclysm. He could have focused the Horde's strength in defeating the real enemy the Twilight Hammer but instead he took as many cheap shots at the Alliance as possible while the the world literally burned. If he pulled this stunt during the Wrathgate or during an invasion by the Legion we would all be zombies or some Dreadlord's bitch by now. Foreshadowing maybe...

Second, the ONLY reason Thrall wanted to hand over the Horde to Garrosh was in memory to Grom Hellscream. Thrall knew he wasn't ready and so did Vol'jin and Cairne. The fact that they didn't simply lick boot just because of a title just shows you that this is a Horde not a monarchy and I wouldn't have it any other way.

To Sum up:
Garrosh = King Joffrey Baratheon from Game of Thrones



Get a better Orc role model people.