1. #1

    Thunder/Warforged in Warlords

    Hey folks, I wanted to do an overview of the problems I feel the "Forged" system encounters in it's current design and my suggestions for overhauling to make it more fit for purpose.

    Why Keep Warforged?
    The Forged System is a really cool solution to a problem I never thought they'd fix. Raiders who have finished progression on their appropriate difficulties will face the prospect of farming the instance for the long months to come. Eventually raiders will acquire their BIS gear and will wonder why they even bother killing these bosses every week. Knowing that there is absolutely nothing you need in the raid is a massive motivation sink. The "Forged" system keeps those raiders feeling that there is potential for an upgrade.

    This is the main reason why War/Thunderforged loot is in the game. Killing a progression boss once and having a warforged trinket drop is a happy side-effect. Giving an even bigger rush to the lucky player who gets the loot.

    Overall, the system has very good positives, but is let down by it's implementation.

    The Current Problems with Warforged
    It's difficult to discuss this in a flowing fashion as all the problems are different from each other. So I'll just use a list.

    The Forged System is controlled by the guild
    This is the biggest issue I feel. The boss dies and the loot is shown. Your guild has control over how this loot is distributed. A lot of guilds will try to be efficient in this distribution. Which leads to this scenario:
    Warforged Trinket Drops
    Player A has Normal Version of Trinket
    Player B doesn't have the trinket at all
    The most efficient way to distribute this loot is to give it to player B. This is a sucker punch for Player A. This problem gets exacerbated in 10man where you are lucky to have 1 trinket drop in the first place, and you may have up to 4-5 people in the raid team who need it. Even with coins, Player A probably faces the idea that they will never get a Warforged Trinket until the rest of the team have caught up. And it is not efficient to use your coin purely for the warforged possibility. It is better served on a boss where a normal piece is still an upgrade.

    Of course, this all depends on your guilds loot distribution but I feel this outcome will be the most common in the majority of guilds.

    10 vs 25
    #bitter10manraider
    This problem is pretty huge in 10 man. Building up a Full Warforged set is only something that can be done during long periods of farm. During long periods of farm, guilds will start to recruit for the next tier as core raiders retire. Key items like trinkets and rings are so rare that a guild would want to distribute it efficiently. You have to remember that the vast majority of guilds are still on progression. Distributing the loot evenly is overall a raid performance increase which is what you need to push the numbers on progression. This would mean Player B would win the trinket. Player A is left on an island. Being the lucky guy to win the first trinket is now a double edged sword as you would have to wait the longest for a warforged version to be yours as well. That really, is not fun.

    With more items dropping in 25man and a higher chance of Warforged loot, you see the loot enough to keep feeling that it will drop the next time if you don't win it that time.

    At the top level, 10man guilds were simply behind in terms of ilvl compared to 25man guilds and it's very challenging for Blizzard to tune encounters by ilvl when you have Warforged loot. Explained a bit in a scenario:
    Control Guild A are 10 man and clear everything in the first week
    Control Guild B are 25 man and clear everything in the first week
    Both guilds clear for the same numbers of weeks. When the next teir comes around, Control Guild B will have a higher overall ilvl than Control Guild A.

    Yes, this problem will be gone in WoD due to Mythic - however - it shows how powerful the Warforged system actually is and how it can affect progression.

    The impossibility of being "BIS"
    If something is so unobtainable - so out of reach - it is a pointless goal. Getting Full BIS including Warforged is so unobtainable that most don't even consider it. This solves the problem of long periods of farming but creates a new problem that is fairly unique to WoW.

    We are used to being able to min-max our characters and do everything we possibly can to make it the strongest it can be. Part of this was always obtaining our BIS. Warforged becomes our new BIS and the normal versions are just a weaker set. That's not really engaging gameplay. Never feeling that your character is the strongest it can possibly be and that your efforts have been rewarded is kind of dissapointing.

    I feel that Warforged should be a system that is actually obtainable after long periods of farming whilst avoiding someone being lucky and getting it all at the start.

    --------------------------------------------------------------
    My proposed Changes
    First of all, some things this requires.

    1. Items are not upgradeable by valor by default
    2. Bosses don't drop "Forged" loot at all.

    Under the new system. You will have a personal tracker which records the amount of bosses you have killed in the lockout. After some breakpoint(I feel 4 is a good number in SoO) you will earn a satchel from your faction leaders acknowledging your efforts. You can only obtain one satchel per lockout.

    This satchel contains things such as spec appropriate flasks, pots, food and has the chance to contain "Forged Plans" of the same difficulty as the lockout.
    (It's important to note all difficulties have separate lockouts in WoD and will thus be tracked individually, killing 3 bosses on normal and 1 boss on heroic in SoO will not earn you the heroic satchel)

    These Forged Plans can be used on any soulbound item of matching difficulty & ilvl and will allow you to upgrade the item - up to twice - by spending valor just as you do now.


    What does this fix?
    The Warforged loot is now controlled by the player and not the guild so you don't need to feel that you're going to have to pass on a Warforged trinket for someone else.

    The player can choose which items to upgrade first. Who really enjoys having warforged bracers and normal trinkets?

    Forged Plans only dropping once a raid will alleviate power spikes, allowing Blizzard to tune encounters by ilvl much more closely. Valor can act as a gating method too.

    With the drop chance high enough, the player could feel that they have the possibility of getting "true" full BIS.

    Even if you don't get the forged plans, the consolation prizes will be welcomed.

    Guilds often sit players who don't need anything from the boss so they can test trials. This can lead to players only participating in 1-2 bosses per lockout which is not fun for those affected. Now those players will be in for at least the breakpoint value, giving them some enjoyment in the raid.

    Some predicted FAQs
    Wouldn't this be just ANOTHER thing to farm? I have enough just trying to get my coins in a week!
    This is simply killing X amount of bosses. You don't need to pick up a quest from outside the raid once a week either. It can all be done within the raid and doesn't require any work outside other than farming valor. I feel valor farming is still important as it gets you to do other activities with your character.

    How would this be tracked?
    I considered putting this inside the difficulty hover-over on the mini-map.
    "25 man Heroic Difficulty
    2/4 Enemies Vanquished"

    Would these rollover? I.e, I kill 2 bosses on heroic week 1, then the same 2 the next week. Do I get the satchel?
    No, the "Forged" system is intended to fix long farming periods with no possible power increases. If you are starting this progression, then this does not apply to you. I feel the items those 2 bosses will drop, along with farming the rest of the bosses on the lower difficulty(and thus obtaining that satchel) will give you the ilvl you need to conquer harder bosses.

    Which items can be upgraded under the new system?
    All equippable items of the matching ilvl can be upgraded. This includes tier. This will add longevity to the system, whilst avoiding the idea that your tier is actually weaker than your other pieces, but is only used because of set bonuses.

    Will this drop in all difficulties?
    All difficulties apart from LFR. I might receive some flak from this, but I don't feel LFR players truly put in enough effort to justify their faction leaders rewarding them.

    I understand that some players may not have the time to raid with guilds but I also feel that person doesn't have the problem that they are farming the raid for long periods of time and have acquired their BIS. I feel LFR players drop in and out and avoid that scenario entirely.

    Is there any downsides?
    I can see people eventually not even caring what the boss drops, but instead opening their bags to see whats inside the shiny satchel. Which takes away from the boss itself. Lorewise it makes more sense for your faction leaders to acknowledge your efforts and give you the satchel so it shouldn't be a boss drop.

    Players could be cautious over the use of their forged plans. They could hold on to them for the "power items", BIS trinkets, weapons, etc. I actually feel this is a good design choice though. On progression is it really worth it to hold onto these when you could upgrade a lesser item, which will in turn help you defeat the boss.


    --------------------------------------------------------------

    I'd like to hear what other people think about this, maybe its been suggested before! If you have a completely different idea, etc. All opinions are welcome. I may not have explained something right, or you have questions. Overall I'm really excited for WoD even though I highly doubt this idea would ever be used.

    Thanks for reading!

  2. #2
    Dreadlord Mteq's Avatar
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    sounds pretty good to me. makes it a little less random though, so it would reduce the time that raids are actually interesting. once you know how many bosses you need to kill to upgrade all your BiS, you will be done farming the bosses, while war forged is always a chance and never a guarantee.
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  3. #3
    I like this idea, and since 10man and 25 man are going away and becoming 20 man, no longer are we going to have this bullshit where 25 man guilds have average ilevels much higher than those of a 10 man. In my experience, especially in heroics, 10 mans are harder simply because of the responsibility of each player being slightly higher. 25 mans are much harder to organize and keep functioning, this is true. But the actual content actually feels easier in a 25man setting than it will in a 10 man setting, SANS the fights where the space in the room is limited and being more spread out is important. (Only a handful of fights this tier.)

    I like this idea, though. And I agree, it ALMOST sucks being first to get your heroic trinket because it'll take you that much longer to get the warforged. (Unless you roll it)

  4. #4
    The Patient Elondre's Avatar
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    Great idea, as a DAMN UNLUCKY 10-man raider i feel this would be just great. But the problem will still be that the loot needs to be there in the first place, for me, i downed H-Norushen 16 times, coined 16 times, got 9 times the trinket, 3times in WF (the npc's on my yack loved them all, yay RNG) but never even SAW the swords looting.

    With your system, it would fix the WF problem, but the loot doesn't drop problem will still be there, so i think that making a way to reduce the chance of loot of an item you already own, and an option to BAN some items (like 1 or 2 max to still be random) from the bonus roll is NEEDED, like for example:
    If the boss that you kill can be bonus rolled for item A,B,C and D:
    You already have B, you want C, and A + D are only good to be selled, with the ban-item option i'll be able to ban A and D as they suck for me, and so my roll will only roll and B and C, with a lesser chance on rolling B because i already have it equipped, so with 4 coins max (considering real bad luck) you'll have your item.

    Because actually the RNG on rolls is a FUC*ING BROKEN BULLCR*P, i know that my case is exeptional but i'm not the only one rolling a loot for more than 15 weeks in a row now and having nothing usefull at all (our ex-druid-tank keeps rolling immerseus's staff for 18 weeks now and still have nothing, he rage-unsubbed to avoid throwing his computer in the street).

    And atop of that the warforged chances in 10man are ridiculous, making the warforged loots so rare that nobody's even hoping them. So yeah your system is pretty great.
    Last edited by Elondre; 2014-03-13 at 03:46 PM.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Mteq View Post
    sounds pretty good to me. makes it a little less random though, so it would reduce the time that raids are actually interesting. once you know how many bosses you need to kill to upgrade all your BiS, you will be done farming the bosses, while war forged is always a chance and never a guarantee.
    The satchel only has a chance to obtain the Forged Plans. So you aren't able to calculate how long it will take.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elondre View Post
    With your system, it would fix the WF problem, but the loot doesn't drop problem will still be there, so i think that making a way to reduce the chance of loot of an item you already own, and an option to BAN some items (like 1 or 2 max to still be random) from the bonus roll is NEEDED, like for example:
    If the boss that you kill can be bonus rolled for item A,B,C and D:
    You already have B, you want C, and A + D are only good to be selled, with the ban-item option i'll be able to ban A and D as they suck for me, and so my roll will only roll and B and C, with a lesser chance on rolling B because i already have it equipped, so with 4 coins max (considering real bad luck) you'll have your item.
    That is a seperate issue. I don't really know how to tackle the coin problem, Blizzard did say recently they were looking into it. I'd be interested into seeing what they do with it. But I like your idea. I have coined HC Immerseus 12 times and won loot pretty much every time, no trinket though



    Thanks for the feedback everyone
    Last edited by Kiitoksia; 2014-03-13 at 03:49 PM.

  6. #6
    Dreadlord Mteq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiitoksia View Post
    The satchel only has a chance to obtain the Forged Plans. So you aren't able to calculate how long it will take.

    Thanks for the feedback everyone
    ah okey. than it does indeed balance the chance factor out quite a lot better
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  7. #7
    Stood in the Fire Kuul's Avatar
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    Only weapons should be warforged.

  8. #8
    The Patient Elondre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiitoksia View Post
    The satchel only has a chance to obtain the Forged Plans. So you aren't able to calculate how long it will take.

    Thanks for the feedback everyone
    Maybe putting a money system like DS's one, like if you kill 10(/14, i'm taking SOO as the example here) bosses you will have 10[Thingy], you can buy the standard [Satch of furnitures] for, let's say, 7[Thingy] (Two per week max, that loots consumables and a low chance of looting the warforged plans ~20%), but there is an epic [Satch of stuff] that need 28[Thingy] (at least two weeks of saving), and gives automatically the warforging plans, with a bit of consumables.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuul View Post
    Only weapons should be warforged.
    I disagree, that doesn't solve the problem of people farming for long periods of time and having no potential upgrades from the raid. Once you get your weapon upgraded, you are done. If you make the drop chance so low, it becomes un-obtainable. People would also want to save it till they get their BIS weapon. It wouldn't be a very fun system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elondre View Post
    Maybe putting a money system like DS's one, like if you kill 10(/14, i'm taking SOO as the example here) bosses you will have 10[Thingy], you can buy the standard [Satch of furnitures] for, let's say, 7[Thingy] (Two per week max, that loots consumables and a low chance of looting the warforged plans ~20%), but there is an epic [Satch of stuff] that need 28[Thingy] (at least two weeks of saving), and gives automatically the warforging plans, with a bit of consumables.
    I don't like the idea that you can calculate how long it will take you. Even if you somehow make it more efficient to get the non-guaranteed chance over the guaranteed one, it still creates the possibility of calculating how long it takes which is bad for gameplay. Who enjoyed the 6k Valor Farming? You knew it would take you 6 weeks. Whereas you had no idea how long sigils would take you.

  10. #10
    The Patient Elondre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiitoksia View Post
    I disagree, that doesn't solve the problem of people farming for long periods of time and having no potential upgrades from the raid. Once you get your weapon upgraded, you are done. If you make the drop chance so low, it becomes un-obtainable. People would also want to save it till they get their BIS weapon. It wouldn't be a very fun system.


    I don't like the idea that you can calculate how long it will take you. Even if you somehow make it more efficient to get the non-guaranteed chance over the guaranteed one, it still creates the possibility of calculating how long it takes which is bad for gameplay. Who enjoyed the 6k Valor Farming? You knew it would take you 6 weeks. Whereas you had no idea how long sigils would take you.
    And sigils was a real pain in the ass when you had no luck at all, don't say otherwise, the sigils were the worst part because you never knew how many you were gonna have. (Plus the last bosses looted sigils at 100%, so you were still able to calculate how many weeks min. it would take)
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