Cauterise, why do my mage colleagues consider it "bad"

[Pandule]

Hey,

Recently i started playing (frost)mage and i obviously have tons to learn. Most of the things I know is stuff i looked up or stuff people told me. Fine examples of improvement is learning how to use invocation instead of incanters ward and got to learn how to work with temporal shield instead of ice barrier.

I am quite pleased with my performance as a (low geared) frost mage because I don't die nearly as much and do close to equal damage than my guildies who are much better geared than I am (with legendary cape and other stuff i do not have). I am however very pleased with my guild and their performance, but that is not what this thread is about.

The two other mages in my guild keep hammering on the fact that i must learn how to use greater invis instead of cauterise with the simple explaination of "it's better, use greater invis". However, i am not convinced. My reasoning goes as follows.

1) I have enough survivability atm, on the herioc fights we do (just started progress on nazgrim, and we raid 25M if it matters) I got enough personal cooldown with incanters ward/ice block. I never die on protectors, i never die on sha, i never die on iron jug and i never die on shamans. The fights where u actually need personal cooldowns.
2) I consider cauterise to be my 'fuck up once for free'-card. If i would have seen my demise comeing i would just have not fucked up. This is the reason I dont like yet another dmg reduction cooldown. Cauterise keeps me in the fight 90% of the time when I screw up. I doubt my reaction speed on greater invis would be fast enough to even save me half the time. Remember, I am not a 'pro' raider and i am certainly not a 'pro' mage. I consider myself an 'ok' mage and I do screw up occasionally.

I tend to be confident of my cauterise-loving because of the fact that in real-world fights, I don't die nearly as much as the two other mages. In the rare events where i beat both of their dps (remember they are 10-20 ilvls above me and have a legendary cape wich i don't) it is mostly because one of them died earlyer in the fight.

TL;DR:Whats with all the cauterise hate? I don't need another dmg reduction cooldown ward/block keeps me up on every fight i've done. I prefer something that softens the result of a screwup.

I know you guys love doing all that armory/WoL inspecting but since I can't post any links yet, my name is Pandule-Frostmane EU human mage
P.S: Please keep in mind that i didn't claim to be 'pro' at what I am doing so if you got any advice for me it is REALLY apreciated, but keep it constructive.

[klogaroth]

The theory is that the best way to go is to not take the damage in the first place instead of "die" and have cauterize save you.

Greater invis certainly allows you to do some good stuff with mechanic soaking.

Personally on my mage alt I always prefer cauterize unless I'm soaking something with greater invis.

The reasoning being that cauterize can save your life if something unexpected happens or if you screw up. Greater invis is brilliant if everything goes to plan, but I'm not that optimistic and I like having a bit of a window to screw up.

If you are playing really aggressively and using defensive cooldowns to allow you to minimise movement greater invis does have a shorter cooldown and is more reliable as you are far less likely to be killed by secondary hits.

As you mentioned mage shields, healthstones and ice block should keep you pretty safe most of the time.

[Raugnaut]

In theory, Greater Invis can "save" you more times/fight then Cauterize can due to the shorter cooldown, with less stress on the healers.

In practice? Go with w/e of the 3 options you want.

[Shangalar]

There is no reason for your colleagues to hate on Cauterize. Cauterize and Greater Invisibility are equally viable survival tools. I personally prefer G.I. because it's an Arcane spell and because I love active mitigation and not taking damage at all. Cauterize saves you when you screw up, G.I. lets you screw up on purpose.

Both of them have downsides too - for G.I. you need to use a global cooldown and actually anticipate incoming damage, while for Cauterize you get a DoT and the healers have to spend mana to save you from your mistake. Just please don't ever Ice Block after Cauterize unless the healers are out of mana on the other side of the continent - that way you just end up losing both of your survival tools at the same time.

Oh yeah, since I'm a G.I. fanboy, I decided to add a list of things you can do in Siege of Orgrimmar with G.I. that you can't do with Cauterize

- not be saved by healers on Immerseus' reforming phase
- survive all the stupid stuff that tries to kill you on Protectors
- soak shadow rifts on Sha while having Mark of Arrogance and taking damage
- soak the crawler mines if needed on Juggy and easily survive every siege phases with minimal healing
- survive Malkorok's Sha annoyance if you accidentally forgot where the arcing smashes were cast
- laugh in the face of Siegecrafter's missiles when you're too lazy to avoid them
- live through all kinds of fun stuff on Paragons when you still have no idea what the bosses actually do
- not take any damage on Garrosh's empowered shadow swirly thingy

That's how I raid and that's how I memorize stuff since I stopped raid leading

[Polarthief]

Cauterize is a great ability, but it lost a LOT of flavor when it's paired up with GI. When it was just something Fire simply got for being, well, Fire back in Cataclysm, it was great. Because we have no really good defensive cooldown other than Ice Block which takes an eternity to reuse, GI is our only other solution besides dying. Keep in mind, Cauterize only blocks ONE hit, AND leaves a nasty DoT on you, while GI can be used to block many hits (within the span of ~5s), removes 2 DoTs, AND has a shorter cooldown, on top of being an active, controlled, ability. GI also gives you a significantly high effective health of 1000% (total) while Cauterize only gives you just under 200% (total) effective health because it can only negate overkill damage equal to your total health (so if your max HP is 500k, you're currently topped off, you can take a hit of 999,999 and still live, but 1M and you would die. GInvis would let you take a hit of 4,999,999 if your max is 500k and you're topped off)

So again, it's not bad by ANY means, it's just not as good as GI, at least in my book, though it is a DPS boost to take the hit with Cauterize over using GI because you can just continue to cast, ignoring what just hit you.

[Erolian]

Because greater invis is always useful and cauterize is only useful when you or someone else fails. Greater Invis is a tool to be used for removing debuffs and being a massive on demand damage reduction CD for just about anything you can possibly think of soaking offensively or defensively. Cauterize on the other hand while it could be used like invis sometimes but it also carries a much higher risk and is really only useful for the "oh shit I failed when I had no idea I was going to" moment. You really shouldn't be having a lot of those moments but they do happen. So once you're reasonably proficient at any given boss it's pretty obvious invis is far and away the better talent in most situations

[godofslack]

Honestly, Greater Invisibility is just better when you have the practice necessary to use it, I mean it's the best personal defensive cooldown in the game 90% damage reduction for ~5 seconds at the cost of a GCD, on a shorter cooldown than cauterize, it's not bad it's just mathematically weaker. Also Cauterize increases the healing requirements of the raid while Great Invisibility reduces it.

[Xomniuri]

It comes down to:
A) You shouldn't need a "fuck up once for free card"
B) You only get benefit from Cauterize when you fuck up
C) GInvis reduces the strain on healers
D) Ginvis cheeses alot of nasty mechanics
E) There are times when you don't have Temporal Shield or Ice Block up

IMO i don't call it "bad" i call it LAZY.
Too lazy to improve yourself
Too lazy to research boss mechanics
Too lazy to see when healers need some extra help
Too lazy to keep an eye on another cd
Too lazy to realize your part of a team and your not giving 100% and letting everyone else down

[Pandule]

The reasoning being that cauterize can save your life if something unexpected happens or if you screw up. Greater invis is brilliant if everything goes to plan, but I'm not that optimistic and I like having a bit of a window to screw up.

As you mentioned mage shields, healthstones and ice block should keep you pretty safe most of the time.

This is exactly my point. And why i take it

- not be saved by healers on Immerseus' reforming phase
- survive all the stupid stuff that tries to kill you on Protectors
- soak shadow rifts on Sha while having Mark of Arrogance and taking damage
- soak the crawler mines if needed on Juggy and easily survive every siege phases with minimal healing
- survive Malkorok's Sha annoyance if you accidentally forgot where the arcing smashes were cast
- laugh in the face of Siegecrafter's missiles when you're too lazy to avoid them
- live through all kinds of fun stuff on Paragons when you still have no idea what the bosses actually do
- not take any damage on Garrosh's empowered shadow swirly thingy

That's how I raid and that's how I memorize stuff since I stopped raid leading

I'm basicly not allowed to pick up mines on iron jugg, idk why they said no when i offered to do it (with GI!) but nor me nor one of the other mages does it, i think theres other designated people for it. Shadow rifts i do it with incanters ward. Protectors.... yeah, i'd be amazed if i see anything in that fight, on the black bubble phases i can't see shit anyway and i just move untill my dbm stops going crazy so i know where there isn't any poison. So unless its non-sun special phase i won't see anything comeing apart from the spinnning kick so i'd probably not even know when to pop greater invis.

For the others, i'm not that far yet... however, the tip is appreciated and i'll test GI when we get there.

Cauterize is a great ability, but it lost a LOT of flavor when it's paired up with GI. When it was just something Fire simply got for being, well, Fire back in Cataclysm, it was great. Because we have no really good defensive cooldown other than Ice Block which takes an eternity to reuse, GI is our only other solution besides dying. Keep in mind, Cauterize only blocks ONE hit, AND leaves a nasty DoT on you, while GI can be used to block many hits (within the span of ~5s), removes 2 DoTs, AND has a shorter cooldown, on top of being an active, controlled, ability. GI also gives you a significantly high effective health of 1000% (total) while Cauterize only gives you just under 200% (total) effective health because it can only negate overkill damage equal to your total health (so if your max HP is 500k, you're currently topped off, you can take a hit of 999,999 and still live, but 1M and you would die. GInvis would let you take a hit of 4,999,999 if your max is 500k and you're topped off)

So again, it's not bad by ANY means, it's just not as good as GI, at least in my book, though it is a DPS boost to take the hit with Cauterize over using GI because you can just continue to cast, ignoring what just hit you.

only time that ever happended and cauterise didn't save me is when alter time RNG put me right in nazgrim's shockwave... haven't had issues with over 1 mill hits (unless im tanking the boss, wich means i overaggrod and with my pussy dps that can only happend if the tank is... dead).
as for the dps increase you and shangalar mention.... I know you guys are the top of the top and you even ponder over the smallest things like 1 or two wasted GCD's on a boss. I'm not on that level yet so i really don't care about a lost or won GCD... good to know that cauterise scores better in that though (yay another argument to stick with caut! )

It comes down to:
A) You shouldn't need a "fuck up once for free card"
B) You only get benefit from Cauterize when you fuck up
C) GInvis reduces the strain on healers
D) Ginvis cheeses alot of nasty mechanics
E) There are times when you don't have Temporal Shield or Ice Block up

IMO i don't call it "bad" i call it LAZY.
Too lazy to improve yourself
Too lazy to research boss mechanics
Too lazy to see when healers need some extra help
Too lazy to keep an eye on another cd
Too lazy to realize your part of a team and your not giving 100% and letting everyone else down

ouch... i am afraid that might be a bit short sighted, I havent raided since cata and i am just back after 2 years break and i immediately decided to play a class i haven't before, i think accepting that you aren't #1 mage is a big step to becomeing a better mage. If you think i don't give it my 100% for my guild or for progress of the guild I am afraid you would be wrong. there's a reason i'm posting on this forum and asking for 'pro's' opinions.

[Tyralis]

Most of the time, you need to use Ice Block when Cauterize procs. As when you play with GI, you have 2 Defensive CDs instead of 1. Of course, sometimes Cauterize is healable, but most of the time It's not.

Like a few people said, if you can predict incoming DMG, GI is probably of the best def CDs in the whole game.

[Shangalar]

Hahahaha I am very far fron top of the top anything. Understanding spells, mechanics, encounters and everything is a different thing. Experience will give you the best opportunity to figure out how to use these spells. And even if I prefer Greater Invisibility, I can only be focused 95% of the time. The other 5% Cauterize would have saved my life on a fight. But as I said, experience. I only recently returned to heroic raiding.

[wrathblade]

Like most ppl already stated.

G.I is a great def. CD, That when used properly can migitate allot of dmg.

caut however is a better talent for ppl learning the fights.
Hell my mage would have died so many times if i didn't have that talent. just because id be running around dodging stuf left and right and forget that 1 boss ability that 1shots you.

Hell on malorak i just told a friend to spec caut because of the high probability that he would forget the breath attack.
10min later i got the whisper it saved him 2x in the same fight.

Id keep it to spec caut if your learning. and G.I if you know the machanics in and out.

[klogaroth]

Raid size also plays a part in this, as do assignments.

We very rarely call for personals in 25 man, because there are so many raid wide cooldowns available.

I do also think that as long as you don't end up dying anyway cauterise is a decent option for the first time you see a fight, before you know the best timings for personal defensive cooldowns in whatever cooldown rotations your raid is using. You can mess something up whilst learning it but get a second go at getting it right. If you've messed something up because you are seeing it for the first time, chances are you also won't have used greater invis.

The more confident you feel about not screwing up and knowing your timings the more use you will see from greater invis.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

"it's better, use greater invis".

Technically true. Cauterize will let you survive 199% of your health (assuming you were topped off) in damage once every 2 minutes, where G.invis will let you take 999% of your health (again, topped off) every 1.5 minutes. G.invis also provides you a self dispel. It is the better talent. That said...

Remember, I am not a 'pro' raider and i am certainly not a 'pro' mage. I consider myself an 'ok' mage and I do screw up occasionally.

Cauterize is for you, and mages like you. New encounters, undergeared characters, people who mess up often enough that it's warranted. Being alive is worth more in a general sense than being able to cheese a given mechanic, outside of a few exceptions, and if those issues apply then one should take Cauterize. As you get more comfortable with the mechanics of a fight, and some more health, try and use G.invis. Shang posted a fair few nice spots to have it. I would add that it will dispel the bleed from He Softfoot on Protectors, as well as the DoT on Sha without giving you any pride. You can run across fire on Seigecrafter and drop the stacks afterwards. You can drop the Aim mechanic on Paragons without needing anyone to jump in the line.

[Xomniuri]

there's a reason i'm posting on this forum and asking for 'pro's' opinions.

You ask a straight question you get a straight answer, without any sugar coating

Sorry to say that i have answered "The reason you colleagues thought it was bad" and i gave you a pro's opinion.
Also the classes and specs have undergone such a large change since cata, especially mages that even if you did play one back then you'd be learning everything all over again.

Being #1 does not mean you do not have things to improve on
If you can't see after all of these different replies saying that GI is better than cauterize after you know the mechanics to know you aren't giving 100% i can only try to enlighten you.

Basically you lack of knowledge about the fights means you are having to use a sub par talent choice. Nothing wrong with that.
Your job is to execute your tasks to the best of your ability, if you feel you can't warrant use GI then by all means use cauterize but don't try tell me or anyone else that it is the better option.

Heroics are not the place to be half assing it, go hard or go home

[Pretzul]

Raid size also plays a part in this, as do assignments.

We very rarely call for personals in 25 man, because there are so many raid wide cooldowns available.

I wanted to reiterate this. With a decent 25m healing core you should have blanketed raid cds for just about every mechanic. On many fights, this pretty much eliminates the need for either talent, giving you freedom to use whatever talent you want.

[Pretzul]

Technically true. Cauterize will let you survive 199% of your health (assuming you were topped off) in damage once every 2 minutes, where G.invis will let you take 999% of your health (again, topped off) every 1.5 minutes. G.invis also provides you a self dispel. It is the better talent. That said..

Ginvis is really the better talent in all ways except one, which I dont think anyone mentioned yet. On some encounters, there may be insane amounts of personal burst damage that neither you nor the healers can avoid nor predict. In other words, you should use cauterize if RNGzus hates you. Examples: 1. Dots from garrosh MC+ explosive despair 2. Paragons mutate+feed (cant even use ginvis here) 3. Paragons multishot+mutate 4. Paragons multishot+fiery edge etc. etc.

One more thing: Cauterize doesn't cost a GCD

- - - Updated - - -

And yet Greater Invis is still more useful considering you can use it to reduce dmg for things you don't use raid cd's on. It's nice if you're lazy and don't do those kinds of things. Some people like to make the healers job a little easier instead of harder though.

And some healers like the job to be harder IJS

[ablib]

I don't care about healers, so I use cauterize. I hate wasting a GCD on survivability in a PvE setting. That's what healers are for. The dot hasn't come close to killing me at all this expansion, it seemed like in Cata it was a near instant death.

[ablib]

Don't care about 5 infraction points, sometimes things need saying.

You're a terrible player.

Lol, perhaps so. I only "raid" LFR though.

[Pretzul]

Don't care about 5 infraction points, sometimes things need saying.

You're a terrible player.

What he said sounds frighteningly similar to what I said lawl