1. #1
    Deleted

    BM hunter questions from a recent noob.

    I was a complete newbie who was recruited to a good guild and they boosted me up very well so now I have found myself to actually understand game but I still have a lot of old problems and fundamental mistakes.

    Like I used to never use things like Blood-fury, Rapid fire and Lifeblood(2880 haste 20 sec Herbalism bonus spell) out of being lazy or forgetting, and after macro-ing them to certain spells I forgot about these things. Now please explain me where should I actually use these 3 spells, as it is now I have Rapid Fire and Lifeblood bound to Cobra Shot and Blood Fury to Multi-shot. Sure these can be used much more efficiently. (Or just burst at start and turn on as CD wears off?)

    Also after now when I maybe will have them incorporated into my rotation, and in mid boss fight I'll know that blood lust is coming soon, should I save these ? I mean, the problem I have is that I don't feel like BL is doing jack for me, as really all I use most of the time is arcane shot. Someone explain me how should I change my rotation when it comes, keep in mind I have Glaive Toss and Thrill of the hunt.

    Next thing is exactly about ToTH. I keep reading people say that Dire Beast is better. Is it ? I love using ToTH because of the satisfaction when seeing all those numbers when dealing with a pile of adds and spamming that multi-shot and not needing to focus on another spell like Dire Beast as ToTh is passive. But I want to improve my dps, and would change it if that's what it takes.

    Not looking for lazy way out any more. Thanks.
    Last edited by mmoc25180f7885; 2014-03-15 at 06:44 PM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobosan View Post
    1) Your rotation doesn't change during bloodlust--the only time it changes is when a mob is under 20% health, at which stage you start weaving in Kill Shots.
    2) Rapid Fire should be used during initial burst directly before Stampede (which it affects) and popping Wrath (which allow you to get a few more attacks in before Wrath expires). After that, you can try and time RF and BW together, but generally the rule is to either use it on CD or save it for dps-intensive phases, depending on the fights. DO NOT stack Lifeblood and RF together if you can avoid it, as such high haste will show diminishing returns. Remember, haste affects not just you but your pet, which is a significant chunk of your damage.
    3) Dire Beast is absolutely better, by a massive margin, than TOTH for BM. BM is not about "seeing all those numbers". It's about understanding that your pet is what's really doing the heavy lifting. BM's passives and masteries affect the summoned pet from Dire Beast, with the added advantage of having your haste and crit applied to it too. That's what makes it so good compared to TOTH, which basically just nets you a few extra arcane shots (which are not enhanced by your spec in any way) or multishots (which you should only be using often enough to keep your beast's cleave buff up in multi-target fights).

    Hope that helps!
    2) is completely wrong. You want to use Rapid Fire on CD unless big CD stacking is about to happen within 10-15 seconds. Also Stampede is not affected by Rapid Fire.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    2) is completely wrong. You want to use Rapid Fire on CD unless big CD stacking is about to happen within 10-15 seconds. Also Stampede is not affected by Rapid Fire.
    ^ That and i would suggest macroing RF with Arcane Shot. If u have 2P at least, u wil be fascinated by ur RF uptime

    Also, Bind blood fury with Bestial wrath. if u have AoC, u will roughly get Blood Fury up every 3rd BW, else u will have it every other one

  4. #4
    As far as the three CDs you listed you'll want to use all of them on the pull. After that just follow the general rule that you should always hold a CD in order to stack multiple CDs but only if its not going to cost you an additional cast of the cool down later in the fight. So for example if Blood-fury is off cooldown and in 7 seconds your BW will also come off cooldown you should wait to cast BF with BW unless by waiting 7 seconds you cause yourself to only get of 3 BFs during the fight instead of 4. The exception to this is RF which you should always use on CD and as was mentioned has no affect on stampede because it is a ranged haste buff and not a melee haste or generic haste buff. Lifeblood does affect stampede though but really a crafting profession is going to be better if you really want to max out your dps.

    As far as lust goes its not going to have any affect on your shot priority, its just more haste. And there's no reason you shouldn't hit RF and Lifebloom with lust. Haste doesn't have diminishing returns the way dodge and parry do. It simply becomes a little less valuable after the cast time of your cobra shot is reduced below 1sec. It still increases auto attack speed and base focus regen for you and your pet.

    Dire beast is for sure better than TotH on single target fights as long as the boss its attacking isn't constantly moving and it doesn't have to change targets. Personally I'm not a fan of the way TotH interacts with BW as having it proced makes it exceedingly difficult to avoid focus capping especially when under a hasted effect. How much better DB is is a bit relative. From a theorycrafting viewpoint its massively better. In game on the other hand you probably won't be able to see much of a difference if that's the only thing you're changing. DB is better but its not going to make or break your dps, if using it is going to mess up your rotation especially with any changes you make to RF, Lifebloom, and Blood-fury, its fine to hold off making the switch until you're more comfortable. Another thing with taking DB is it actually takes priority over KC.

    If you really want to get into it and see exactly what the best setup is for just about everything Effinhunter has a guide on all things BM here. You can also check out the forums here on MMOC and see what you can learn. Threads regarding stat, talents, gearing, and ability usage show up all the time though they don't always reach a consensus.
    Last edited by Aldarana; 2014-03-15 at 09:04 PM. Reason: Add info on BD

  5. #5
    TotH is rather weak for BM. For single target, non-movement fights, use dire beast. Otherwise, use Fervor. Remember Fervor grants you and YOUR PET both focus. Watch your pet's focus right before you're about to use it as well to make sure it's also fully benefiting, not just your focus. Those AoE situations you were talking about earlier where you said TotH comes in handy? Well, as BM, the bulk of your AoE damage isn't from multi-shot, it's from Beast Cleave. Fervor let's you get off multi-shots like TotH, but also gives your pet more focus to dump more damage into Beast Cleave. That extra focus will push him over the 50 focus point, which increases the damage of his basic filler spell (bite, smack, claw) by 100%, which translates to more Beast Cleave damage. Also, don't spam multi-shot as BM. Use it once every 4 seconds to keep Beast Cleave up. Otherwise, you're wasting focus.

    For Lifeblood, i use it in tandem with Bestial Wrath basically. If you want to cast it early before BW, make sure you don't cast it anymore than 10 seconds before you're about to use BW so it lasts the whole duration of BW. As Lifeblood boosts haste, which your pet inherits its haste rating from yours. More haste for the pet means more attacks in during BW for it. Apply these same rules to Bloody Fury (since they're both 2min CDs.).

    For Rapid Fire, it's become an interesting CD for BM. It used to be (earlier in the expansion) that you shouldn't use BW and Rapid Fire together. This is because Rapid Fire increases your RANGED haste, not melee. Your pet goes off your melee haste. So, effectively Rapid Fire added nothing to BW for the pet or hunter. You should be using nothing but instant cast abilities during BW (aka not using cobra shot) because you want as much damage as you can pour into that 10 seconds of 10% damage boost you get as possible. Haste doesn't affect instant cast abilities, so there was basically no point in using the two together.

    T16 came along however and meddled things up a bit. Firstly, the T16 2pc. Since you get so many arcane shots off during your BW, it makes it so you should use Rapid Fire whenever it comes up anymore so the CD is always being reduced. Secondly, Blizzard increased the cost of Arcane Shot to 30 focus. That makes it to the point now of if you aren't at full focus at the start of BW, you very well could focus starve yourself during BW, which you don't want to do. So, if you're in a situation where BW comes up and you aren't at full focus, that increased Ranged Haste from Rapid Fire bumps up your base focus regen enough to keep you from starving yourself at times. Once you get good though, you will learn to anticipate BW coming and make sure you're near full focus when it comes up. But, there are still times where you might not be. So for now, especially if you have the T16 2pc, just use Rapid Fire on CD.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by femur68 View Post
    Haste doesn't affect instant cast abilities, so there was basically no point in using the two together.
    It still increases auto attack, which is buffed by BW. This benefit is rather minor.

    Quote Originally Posted by femur68 View Post
    Once you get good though, you will learn to anticipate BW coming and make sure you're near full focus when it comes up. But, there are still times where you might not be. So for now, especially if you have the T16 2pc, just use Rapid Fire on CD.
    If by this you're suggesting that you shouldn't use RF before BW when you have a full focus pool I would argue that the AS you'll be doing will still decrease the CD on RF, and having 30 focus coming out of BW instead of 10 isn't really hurting you.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldarana View Post

    If by this you're suggesting that you shouldn't use RF before BW when you have a full focus pool I would argue that the AS you'll be doing will still decrease the CD on RF, and having 30 focus coming out of BW instead of 10 isn't really hurting you.
    My apologies. That was rather horribly worded. No, you should definitely use RF before BW even if you have a full focus pool because of the CD reduction from the AS spam that's about to ensue.

  8. #8
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobosan View Post
    1) Your rotation doesn't change during bloodlust--the only time it changes is when a mob is under 20% health, at which stage you start weaving in Kill Shots.
    2) Rapid Fire should be used during initial burst directly before Stampede (which it affects) and popping Wrath (which allow you to get a few more attacks in before Wrath expires). After that, you can try and time RF and BW together, but generally the rule is to either use it on CD or save it for dps-intensive phases, depending on the fights. DO NOT stack Lifeblood and RF together if you can avoid it, as such high haste will show diminishing returns. Remember, haste affects not just you but your pet, which is a significant chunk of your damage.
    3) Dire Beast is absolutely better, by a massive margin, than TOTH for BM. BM is not about "seeing all those numbers". It's about understanding that your pet is what's really doing the heavy lifting. BM's passives and masteries affect the summoned pet from Dire Beast, with the added advantage of having your haste and crit applied to it too. That's what makes it so good compared to TOTH, which basically just nets you a few extra arcane shots (which are not enhanced by your spec in any way) or multishots (which you should only be using often enough to keep your beast's cleave buff up in multi-target fights).

    Hope that helps!
    Dire Beast is not better at all in heavy aoe encounters. Not even close to ToTH then. Also, yes, you should be spamming multi shot to dump focus at I believe 3+ adds.

  9. #9
    Deleted
    Thank you for all the deep replies.

    I have some things sorted and other questions too. What I took from this - drop ToTH for Dire Beast, use all of these abilities on burst at start, including RF and use it again as soon as CD ends because I indeed do have the RF cooldown reduction from armor set bonus. And I should use life blood with BW.

    Someone made a mistake by saying stampede is effected by RF, but apparently it's not, now I have a ton of abilities I have to use on burst, what would be the preferred order ?
    Also someone mentioned I shouldn't use RF + Lifeblood but then again it seems like things are contradicting, should I then burst them, or I shouldn't use it before BW in mid fight if RF is active ?

    Also, I forgot to mention in the original post the following things - when should I use 5 frenzy stacks ? I was told by someone that my pet attacks faster on 5 stacks thus I should not use it, yet since then I have never even touched it and just let it be there. Is that correct way of using it, or should i actually use it, on let's say the last 10% health (lower for boss) or something ?
    Also since the Hunters mark is applied by so many different shots I use early in the fight, I was wondering is it worth applying ? I never do, and maybe that short period at start is actually worth the bother ?

    I noticed a dps increase after changing to DB right away and regret not trying it out before. Thank you.
    Last edited by mmoc25180f7885; 2014-03-16 at 02:52 AM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by PotatoKing View Post
    I have a ton of abilities I have to use on burst, what would be the preferred order ?
    There are 2 different openers for BM this tier and which one you use is just dependent on which trinket you have.
    If you have Ticking Ebon Detonator:
    Glaive (-1sec before pull)
    RF+pot+BF+(in your case)Lifeblood if its off the GCD
    SS(IF TED hasn't proced)
    BW + KC
    ZOO
    DB
    spam AS
    The goal of this being to stack as many damage modifiers on the first KC which ideally will hit with your 20k+ TED agi proc. Some people put RF down with stampede, you could do Lifebloom there too, but you should get the Blood-fury off with the pot.

    With out TED you'd want something more like this:
    Glaive (at -1 sec)
    SrS
    ZOO + RF+BF+Lifebloom
    DB
    BW + KC
    Spam AS
    The main difference is just getting the Stampede and DB off before BW so you don't waste globals. The globals are outweighed when you have a TED proc.

    Quote Originally Posted by PotatoKing View Post
    Also, I forgot to mention in the original post the following things - when should I use 5 frenzy stacks ? I was told by someone that my pet attacks faster on 5 stacks thus I should not use it, yet since then I have never even touched it and just let it be there. Is that correct way of using it, or should i actually use it, on let's say the last 10% health (lower for boss) or something ?
    That's a complicated one. You'll want to use FF when you have 5 frenzy stacks. The sticky bit it how you should use it with BW. Some say that you want to hold it during BW and let your pet have the attack speed and others argue that using it just before give you and your pet more focus for attacks. I've also seen a few people say to use it during BW but their reasoning had to do with the 4 piece. I don't know which way is best and its probably okay to use any of them. NOTE:that statement could be false.

    Quote Originally Posted by PotatoKing View Post
    Also since the Hunters mark is applied by so many different shots I use early in the fight, I was wondering is it worth applying ? I never do, and maybe that short period at start is actually worth the bother ?
    Put Hunter's Mark on the boss before the pull, its lasts forever and requires zero effort.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by PotatoKing View Post
    I was a complete newbie who was recruited to a good guild and they boosted me up very well so now I have found myself to actually understand game but I still have a lot of old problems and fundamental mistakes.

    Like I used to never use things like Blood-fury, Rapid fire and Lifeblood(2880 haste 20 sec Herbalism bonus spell) out of being lazy or forgetting, and after macro-ing them to certain spells I forgot about these things. Now please explain me where should I actually use these 3 spells, as it is now I have Rapid Fire and Lifeblood bound to Cobra Shot and Blood Fury to Multi-shot. Sure these can be used much more efficiently. (Or just burst at start and turn on as CD wears off?)

    Also after now when I maybe will have them incorporated into my rotation, and in mid boss fight I'll know that blood lust is coming soon, should I save these ? I mean, the problem I have is that I don't feel like BL is doing jack for me, as really all I use most of the time is arcane shot. Someone explain me how should I change my rotation when it comes, keep in mind I have Glaive Toss and Thrill of the hunt.

    Next thing is exactly about ToTH. I keep reading people say that Dire Beast is better. Is it ? I love using ToTH because of the satisfaction when seeing all those numbers when dealing with a pile of adds and spamming that multi-shot and not needing to focus on another spell like Dire Beast as ToTh is passive. But I want to improve my dps, and would change it if that's what it takes.

    Not looking for lazy way out any more. Thanks.
    Just macro those things into all of your shots.

    Bloodlust is very powerful bot you shouldn't really save stuff for it - also go Dire Beast and -never- go Fervor for any reason. Stick to ToTH for multi-target/sustained cleave but Dire Beast is usually the better choice.

    For Focus Fire, use it at 5 stacks, during BW I use it on the 4th in-BW global because this is the turning point during BW where you do more damage than your pet (due to 4pc). Haven't math'd this out so it's not necessarily the right solution but it's what I do.

    Here's a WeakAura that tells you to use FF if

    1) 5 stacks of Frenzy
    2) 3 stacks of 4pc buff (Brutal Kinship) on yourself.
    3) BW is up.

    Don't use FF if BW is like 7s or under from getting off cd.

    Code:
    d0tPdaGEPIEjGIDreSnIq7tiQzsenxIuZwq3uQKlt1Tf4XaTtiAVODRQ9Rs5NcLHbi)gQXPImuPsnyIkdxuDqHW5b4ycvNtLQfkswQuLwSuvlh0dfspvzzIupNsNMIPkLjlPMoPlQI6Qsv8mIQUoHncHTcOQndPTlknnrX3fI8zjzEaQmsPc)vLmAvOXtKCsr0TikUMiCpvWkbu6Ws8nIsZ4SXvyJdb0)obWL8vhIwaDPtcIFR0jrc8xDzSGxDHFR6WOHLiDbK8u5SCPLaqsibxaxnxnBCsfdf16kriJS3ZKoDMm3Lx(tPpjrGoruzYilhOWQ4GMlLYHIbf2BYHAG(nGLdqmuuRReHmNKvIjakZP73pL4E6eXttuzYilx5nbf1GF24ckMNnofqUZLdDRRC5q36kxFS4bDQu5uOPQYHSXjEpR)kxrOyUVe4w2iY4CiG(3jaQCcRFjEJYuCEw)vUOhl6n56YT2sLZjEJYL7kNW6rXIxzkoqS4vUeCqpGlbh0dIL7WIIHChoWbIfVgl3Hffd5oCGduyvCW1rtTZPMaVMkhk(vUZHz7j5n5qGFLlexQzJty9lWWI1YuCqCOZgxGiunSrLkhyyXAzJZA(QqNRJEq2o3lvQCqVYG)gGCNZaIFUIqXSpNPMlIoXqeisHfpOZ9IGg0uv5qlrMMRuxBud(lHxk0uv5qlBezC24uOPQYHSXb9aUeCwrFpR)6eOOgP4UIgXAxRfrVnoqHvXbxhn1oNAc8AoqS41y5oSOyixKpWzf99S(RDdDuJuCR7ZskjNN1FLRdVeQh5ewpkw8ktXbIfVYjp3xcClBezCUuqHwcVjhWyE7rtovoOhel3Hffd5aUdCI3OC5HfaoKtbK7CfbSWv79fOOna5oxhNLSBe9ijvoXRqtvLdzJkvQC1gBEybqsq8ZLez7CViIi6zPtgngYjDPVj0OaUokE1HxOyqHf1aDoqmoSghPNPOYLLiJNjoqujb
    As someone else mentioned open like:

    Pre-pull Glaive Toss (you'll learn to time this eventually so your tanks don't hate you)
    SrS if no TED proc (usually there is tho)
    BW + KC
    Stamp + RF + Lifeblood and whatnot.
    Dire Beast
    Then just AS + KC till you can't anymore.

    Use RF on cooldown.
    Last edited by Azortharion; 2014-03-16 at 11:08 AM.

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