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  1. #1

    Garrosh's plan makes no sense from a historical military standpoint

    Garrosh knows the stories of the original Horde invasion of Azeroth, how they steamrolled the Eastern Kingdoms armies almost to the point of annihilation at the end of Warcraft 1:



    However, he must also know that in what was Warcraft 2 we managed to push back the clans to the Dark Portal, seal it off, then even go beyond the Dark Portal and seal it off from there too. While in Warcraft 1 the original Alliance races had no love for one another, in Warcraft 2 they came together and forged the Alliance itself, so during WC1 the Horde had a major tactical advantage.

    This was a time when the Orcs also had dragons at their disposal after enslaving the Red dragonflight, as well as permanent bloodlust from drinking demonic blood. Even so, we managed to beat them back eventually.

    Now come WoD, Garrosh hopes to take over Azeroth against a currently strong and unified Alliance with (20-30?) years of improved technology, magic knowledge, freaking Deathknights and on top of that a new race which wasn't there in the original Alliance, the Draenei (won't mention pandaren, they're useless at warfare, and High Elves are replaced by Night Elves)?
    Not only that, but he would also have to face the Azerothian Horde, comprised of Tauren, Trolls, Orcs etc... and Undead.

    Between the Deathknights and Sylvanas alone they would probably have a field day raising every dead Orc to fight back against the Iron Horde.

    And it's not even like the pandaria campaign weakened us severely or anything, we spent half our time there soul-searching and whatever, we each built a military base, and the rest of the time was sending task groups against different enemies and taking them out, this wasn't a years long war where we suffered crippling blows, unless you count Theramore which wasn't even pandaria related. Then as far as retaking Orgrimmar goes, we fought mostly a handful of Garrosh loyalists, and still managed to beat a Garrosh infused with Old God powers.



    Now, to get to the meat of the argument:

    In Garrosh's arsenal there would be no bloodlust (he wants the Iron Horde to be pure), no race variety thus only Orcish powers and intellect driving the army and its innovation, some new technologies from Azeroth brought back by Garrosh, which we already know of, no magical knowledge however, so it's gonna be Iron Horde shamanism vs Mages, Warlocks, Priests, Paladins, Shamans, with YEARS of experience in their fields.

    On top of that, as mentioned before, he would face a fully unified Horde and Alliance on Azeroth, a Red dragonflight which would be on OUR side this time, and generally speaking a level of preparation which wasn't there in the original Orcish invasion of Azeroth, even though, back then, we managed to beat them back.

    Not only that, but this time around Garrosh's new Horde will be fighting a war on two fronts: one within Draenor against the Draenei, now bolstered by Alliance numbers (and Horde?), and one with Nethergarde Keep's forces as well as whatever forces the Alliance and Horde leave behind to defend the Dark Portal exit.

    This being said, historically speaking, how the hell does he hope to defeat us all? All he has are a few new toys that our Horde already has as well.
    Last edited by BlizzardApologist; 2014-03-16 at 03:33 PM.

  2. #2
    This is the guy who turned every other faction on the planet against him (including his own) and thought he was going to win.

    Garrosh is not the best tactician on Azeroth.

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  3. #3
    Over 9000! Gheld's Avatar
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    A Blizzard Lore Wizard did it?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by PuppetShowJustice View Post
    This is the guy who turned every other faction on the planet against him (including his own) and thought he was going to win.

    Garrosh is not the best tactician on Azeroth.
    THIS. A thousand times this.

  5. #5
    Herald of the Titans
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    i guess its the numbers-advantage? i dont know, but it seems like the war in wc1 and wc2 caused uncountable amounts of deaths on both sides.
    now he has the orcs at their original strenght before the 2 wars, illidan, the lich king, cataclysm and all those huge threads.

    well, i could be wrong here ^^

  6. #6
    Interesting points there. I never thought about it that way before.

    I think ...

    I think you just nailed the last few nails in the coffin.

    WoW is dead to me. :[

  7. #7
    Good thing it's just a video game and in the grand scheme of things was going to be defeated before he ever started.

  8. #8
    i guess its the numbers-advantage?
    How? We know at least one of the clans doesn't even side with him. He's basically intending to come through the portal with a bunch of orcs and take on the entire military might of Azeroth.

    He already used a bunch of orcs to fight the Horde and Alliance in SoO. It didn't end well. If Blizzard didn't have to twist so hard to make sense of this it would be an absolute slaughter.

    Think about it. His Iron Horde has exactly one entry point into Azeroth -- the Dark Portal. The Forsaken alone could hold that point with their plague weapons and Garrosh's orcs nor siege weapons would make it twenty feet onto Azerothian soil.

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  9. #9
    Dreadlord Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    I guess he's counting on the super Gronns with cannons on their back.

  10. #10
    I'm interested in the exact timing of when he goes back to Draenor. Has KJ already manipulated Ner'Zhul by posing as his dead wife and the other Orc Ancestors? If not wouldn't they warn the Orc Shaman against Garrosh?

  11. #11
    It's not like they've ever revealed specifics on military strength in terms of numbers before. For all we know 10 years or so of constant fighting has whittled the people of Azeroth down and there are actually way more orcs on Draenor.

    Even in the original only a small percentage of orcs were sent though the portal to Azeroth and in the sequel it was ultimately Guldan's betrayal and infighting that brought the Horde down. Even in the WC2 expansion there was still a major force on Draenor, the Alliance just sent strike teams to deal with key enemies.

  12. #12
    You started on the false premise that blizzard can write gud.

  13. #13
    This is the biggest problem with Garrosh.

    he has been consistently shown to be an idiot. In wrath Saurfang had to work behind the scenes to cover his ass and prevent the campaign being lost. In Cata, well "What kind of idiot orders away his air support?" Then gets attacked.

    In MOP we are led to believe he's meant to be some sort of tactical genius with the bombing Theramore and expanding the war using enslaved Magnataur proto drakes and everything else. Then botches everything by alienating the rest of the Horde, pissing off the pandaren, bringing the alliance to orgrimmar's doorstep, and corrupting himself just like Daddy did.

    My opinion of WOD lore is that someone said "hey lets go back to old draenor, Make it happen no matter how silly it is!"

  14. #14
    Stood in the Fire
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    Garrosh is crazy.

    That's not to say he's COMPLETELY stupid. He managed to turn every race in Azeroth against him but still put up quite a fight.

    That being said, wondering why he does certain things that logically aren't the best decision is like wondering why a terrorist tries to do what he does when there's no way he can logically win in the long run, or why the Nazis kept fighting for so long after their economy had collapsed and the Germans began turning against them AND their entire war machine was falling apart.

    Desperate, delusional, zealously passionate people don't always follow logic. They follow "their heart" their twisted sense of honor, and their pride.
    Some people really like flavor. Occasionally subsisting on nutrient paste just doesn't feel the same as eating a steak. I get that flavor isn't for everyone, but I doubt removing all cosmetic indicators from the game would be appealing either. Nobody want to log in, queue to fight modestly sized blue checked box boss #7, initiate combat using an attack sequence of abilities 1-7 with a 13 beat repeat coda intermittently, and collect item level 630 slot 7 gear either.

  15. #15
    Let's not forget some things:

    The WC1-2 Horde killed off many races of the planet Draenor; most specifically, the Gronn who are being forced to work for the Iron Horde
    WC1-2 Horde also didn't all go through the Dark Portal in the first place: many were held back
    A large portion of the Orcish race was killed off because the crap that was happening on Draenor making it go boom
    WC2 Horde failed due in large part to its entire magical arm leaving it at the Siege of Stormwind, leaving the Horde with almost no magic (if Gul'dan hadn't left, and if Ogrim hadn't taken over, Horde would have won Azeroth)

    The Iron Horde, has greater population, more reliable magic, greater arms, armor, and technology, and stronger leadership.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by frymastermeat View Post
    It's not like they've ever revealed specifics on military strength in terms of numbers before. For all we know 10 years or so of constant fighting has whittled the people of Azeroth down and there are actually way more orcs on Draenor.

    Even in the original only a small percentage of orcs were sent though the portal to Azeroth and in the sequel it was ultimately Guldan's betrayal and infighting that brought the Horde down. Even in the WC2 expansion there was still a major force on Draenor, the Alliance just sent strike teams to deal with key enemies.
    Good points, but in the original invasion it was also Humans alone vs Orcish invasion, now it's Humans + Night Elves + Draenei + Gnomes + Dwarves + Worgen, which I even forgot to mention in the first post, + the Azeroth Horde.

    Yeah, Worgen vs Orc, we now even have a race to match their ferocity and physical strength. Hell, I bet Orcs don't bite, Worgen do.
    Last edited by BlizzardApologist; 2014-03-16 at 03:01 PM.

  17. #17
    The Iron Horde's might largely hinges on the technology that Garrosh brought back with him, which is the backbone of their offensive. That covers everything from those crazy cannon-Gronns to crazy explosives and the like.

    The WC1/2 Horde was a bunch of rampaging, demon-high murder machines. This time around, they're much more like an organized army than a frenzied swarm, and they're backed by some pretty fine engineering, which is at least up there with the Alliance's best war technology. On top of that, they've had an undisclosed time frame in which to construct it all, unchallenged on the other side of the portal, and most of the entire Draenor Orc population is backing the Iron Horde. Sure, there are exemptions, but that is a LOT of Orcs for such a technologically-apt force.

    There are certainly parallels, but there are also differences. I'd say that the Iron Horde is at least as strong as the original demon blood Horde. Also, unless I'm mistaken, didn't the old Horde only lose even after the Alliance formed because Gul'dan betrayed them and went looking for the Tomb of Sargeras?

    Of course, Garrosh IS crazy, but it's not as outright dumb for him as the Orgrimmar thing was.
    Last edited by Eats Compost; 2014-03-16 at 02:58 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Huoyue View Post
    Let's not forget some things:

    The WC1-2 Horde killed off many races of the planet Draenor; most specifically, the Gronn who are being forced to work for the Iron Horde
    WC1-2 Horde also didn't all go through the Dark Portal in the first place: many were held back
    A large portion of the Orcish race was killed off because the crap that was happening on Draenor making it go boom
    WC2 Horde failed due in large part to its entire magical arm leaving it at the Siege of Stormwind, leaving the Horde with almost no magic (if Gul'dan hadn't left, and if Ogrim hadn't taken over, Horde would have won Azeroth)

    The Iron Horde, has greater population, more reliable magic, greater arms, armor, and technology, and stronger leadership.
    It has greater population, but so do we this time around. We're like 10x bigger if you count the Azeroth Horde vs what the original Human army was in the original invasion. They have more reliable magic? I don't know, but I think we have far more versatile magic. We even have shamanism to match their this time around. Greater arms? Compared to the original invasion, sure, but compared to us? They're probably more or less on even footing thanks to Garrosh.

    Technology? Sure, but once again, we have it too. The leadership is a good point, but it's not like the Alliance is in any way wobbly right now. On top of that we have a pissed off Jaina waiting to be ticked the wrong way. I don't know how good a leader Vol'Jin is, but he seems to be respected enough, and I doubt any of the Horde races would want Garrosh to take over after what he did in this expansion.

  19. #19
    Garrosh is most likely receiving (or will be receiving) support from the Burning Legion, although this cannot be confirmed yet.

  20. #20
    Legendary! Arrashi's Avatar
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    Garrosh plan was to lose to us while providing entertainment. He kinda failed on that one tho.

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