When 'should' you change from Arms to Fury?

[Bloodletters]

Believe it or not, for Belt duty, Arms can be just as good or possibly even better.
If you have a bigger belt group (4), chances are the mob will die within a single CS. If you run a light belt group (2), Arms can potentially be better as its DPS doesn't suffer outside of CS. I'm sure Sarri will add more.

That said, I personally think Fury is better all around. Arms certainly isn't terrible in the hands of an expert, but Fury does shine on single target and burst. Burst matters more on progression, especially when pushing phases and other mechanics. I think Arms starts to shine more on farm once you have a solid grasp on timing and uptime, such as with adds; knowing Deep Wounds and Sweeping Strikes timing (whereas Fury simply Bladestorms and maybe does a bit of Meat Cleaving).

I'm not sure I buy that. Fury uses Stormbolt and Arms doesn't, so that would account for more burst damage inside a CS. Fury seems to have significantly more potential in terms of sustained single target as well. I'm sure if Fury has REALLY bad RNG outside of CS that Arms could do a bit better but I think it would have to be particularly bad.

Just looking over the top parses on Iron Jugg and Arms is the worst spec in the game on that fight and its not particularly close. Obviously, I know that the spec representation is abysmal and that counts for something but even other specs with similar or worse representation destroy it at the top, such as Demonology, Subtlety, Marksmanship, Unholy.

Arms is amazing at sustained AOE and cleave but there are only a couple fights where that mattered and they weren't the challenging fights of the tier.

[Archimtiros]

I'm not sure I buy that. Fury uses Stormbolt and Arms doesn't, so that would account for more burst damage inside a CS. Fury seems to have significantly more potential in terms of sustained single target as well. I'm sure if Fury has REALLY bad RNG outside of CS that Arms could do a bit better but I think it would have to be particularly bad.

Just looking over the top parses on Iron Jugg and Arms is the worst spec in the game on that fight and its not particularly close. Obviously, I know that the spec representation is abysmal and that counts for something but even other specs with similar or worse representation destroy it at the top, such as Demonology, Subtlety, Marksmanship, Unholy.

Arms is amazing at sustained AOE and cleave but there are only a couple fights where that mattered and they weren't the challenging fights of the tier.

CS doesn't last the length of the belt; read: if its taking you the full belt to kill the target, Arms will likely put out more damage over that time. If the add is dying during CS; Fury will obviously pull through. If the belt was long enough to get two CS, then it would be a different story.
Remember that cooldowns are also short enough that Arms would be able to bloodbath on each belt, that adds a fair chunk.

Iron Jug is all single target, it is well established that Fury is overall greater single target than Arms. I said as much in an earlier post on Garrosh.
Nobody will argue that Arms is outright better than Fury. The key is that Arms can perform adequately if you know what you are doing. The whole last paragraph I wrote that you quoted says as much: Fury is all around better than Arms and better for progression. Arms can pick up once you have a firm grasp on things, that doesn't mean that it will beat Fury. You can polish a turd, it just won't make it worth more!

[Bloodletters]

Yes, as I said Arms can potentially be better on the belts during the full duration. That said, I only see that happening if Fury has terrible RNG, or potentially great RNG with Sudden Death procs. Not something that would happen consistently enough that you would plan the spec you play around it.

My point with Iron Jugg was that Fury has significantly higher damage output unless it suffers terrible RNG thus making it the superior spec for Siegecrafter progression.

[Archimtiros]

Yes, as I said Arms can potentially be better on the belts during the full duration. That said, I only see that happening if Fury has terrible RNG. Not something that would happen consistently enough that you would plan the spec you play around it.

My point with Iron Jugg was that Fury has significantly higher damage output unless it suffers terrible RNG thus making it the superior spec for Siegecrafter progression.

The two are completely separate though. Nothing at all to do with one another.

Siegecrafter is not a DPS check of any sort, it is 100% mechanics. Furthermore, if you are on belt, damage on it should really be your only concern. That means saving CD's for it, putting out full damage for it. Your damage on the boss means dick all. In fact being able to use less people on the belt each time would actually be a raid damage increase by allowing other DPS to maintain full time on it, as opposed to 4-5 people running each time. Same reason people use full time classes like Hunters.
Keep in mind I never said Arms was actually overall better for Siege than Fury, just that it could potentially out perform Fury on the belt. Circumstances would dictate, but if your group wanted to handicap the belt group by only sending 2 or 3 people, Arms could potentially do better.

By contrast, on Iron Juggernaut, you really have nothing else to do except Single Target the boss. Even with a group that makes melee run out for healing, a Warrior can easily stand in and survive through smart self CD's and Healthstone.

I really don't understand what you are trying to argue. My first post pointed out that Fury was superior, though Arms could, under certain circumstances, do as well or slightly better. I went further to say I believed Fury to be the better spec for progression. Your comparison of Iron Juggernaut to Siegecrafter, unfair as it is, was unnecessary.

Really cant tell if your trying to argue or just reinforce my own posts.

[Bloodletters]

I disagree with you on the DPS check portion, at least when it comes to the belts. You're trying to run as few people up there as possible, you have to meet a specific damage threshold to accomplish that.

That said though, do you think Arms can beat out Fury on belt damage on a consistent basis?

[Archimtiros]

But what I said was the fight as a whole is not a DPS check. Especially now with the lowered health.
I'd still rank the belts as more of a mechanics check than a DPS check. Yes there is a "time limit" to kill the target, but you have to do that while maneuvering around fire and transitioning to and from the main platform/boss.

I think of the belt as less "how can we get enough DPS to kill it" and more "how can we reliably kill it, using the least amount of DPS (players)". I know its kind of semantics but I hope someone out there appreciates the distinction.

As far as consistently beating Fury? I honestly have no clue in hell. All I had intended was to point out that Arms could reasonably deal consistent damage over time, the full time of the belt; where as Fury is fairly locked into its 6 second CS window.
Because the target is not up long enough to get 2 CS phases, IF the target was alive longer than ~8 seconds; then Arms damage would start to pick up, whereas Fury would start to fall off.
If the target was up long enough for two CS phases, Fury would of course ramp up again. This is just the nature of its burst damage.

Arms merely has better potential to let you handicap the belt a little more, say as Fury you use three people, but you could get away with two as Arms. That would allow one more person to be full time boss, and that would give you higher overall Raid damage. I am not saying everyone should do this, because there are many other factors involved such as: Actually being able to duo the belt, how good at ST that extra dps is, individual group comps and strategies, etc.

Just comparing the two Warrior specs and no other outside factors, I would give the gold to Fury, simply because although it should not be necessary to finish the encounter, the extra damage it would do on the boss would make the difference in damage. It is the well rounded choice, being exceptional with both ST and AoE burst.
Either way, at this point I would give the floor over to Sarri, as he has been main Arms for some time now and would have much better insight than I. For me its just a fun theory. He is crazy enough to actually want to play Arms!

[Keensteel]

I say fuck Siegecrafter Blackfuse and the mother fucking belt he rode in on...

[Trubo]

I say fuck Siegecrafter Blackfuse and the mother fucking belt he rode in on...

My only complaint with the belt is when I have to switch belt groups to accommodate missing certain people who typically do the belt. Only fight this tier that I have to continually refer back to a guide.