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  1. #1

    New to heroic siege - requirements questions

    Hellooooo friends.

    So, our casual guild is starting up heroics this Friday (yay, finally!) and I just wanted to get an idea of some numbers before we head in. We're going to be attempting the first ~4 bosses or so on heroic. Our raid team is fairly different from night to night (re: casual guild), so our successes aren't exactly consistent.

    My question is: how much dps SHOULD our dps be pulling? Most of our raiders are at about a 564, no lower than a 561 and no higher than a 569. And yes - I have been informed that until Malkorok, there isn't really a dps check. But I'd like to have a rough number so I can kick some people in the pants that need it. This week, we are expecting to have the following dps classes:
    SV/BM hunter
    Combat rogue
    Assassination rogue
    Destro/Afflic lock
    Elemental shaman (going resto if the answer to the question below is hell no)

    Also, what is the likelihood of us 2 healing the first four? We have a disc priest and a resto druid that are 2 of our stronger players (ie: we usually rely on them to be badass) and a pally tank/monk tank that are also quite strong... our dps are just a little... derpy sometimes.

  2. #2
    You will want to 3 heal both immerseus and protectors. You can 2 heal norushen but you need to make sure your dps are killing adds and orbs are being picked up quickly or else your healers will be overwhelmed. Sha is a fairly straight forward 2 heal fight, just be sure to have cooldowns planned for the 100 energy explosions and make sure you don't let rifts get out of control.

  3. #3
    Pit Lord Radio's Avatar
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    On the topic of 2 healing first four:
    - Immerseus - 2 healing and/or 1 tanking works, and will reduce the length of the p1s, which should only be considered if you are getting a second swelling corruption, otherwise stick to 3 heals/2 tanks, as it makes the fight generally cleaner and reduces the risk of falling behind on healing adds later in the fight
    - Fallen Protectors - 2 healing works fine, and makes certain mechanics easier (less time in Desperate Measures phases), but also means your DPS can't be as derpy
    - Norushen - most stringent DPS race of the first 4 (first 8 even), and can easily be 2 healed if the few mechanics are done right, you will have to use cooldowns properly near the end though
    - Sha - very easy to 2 heal, and makes the fight much easier (people don't get as high pride), but you will have a couple of tight spots (high pride swelling, one healer banished, etc)

    For opening heroics, you should be expecting your DPS to at least be capable of roughly 200k average single target, any less and you may start having issues, and of course, more is always better.
    You thought that this would be a serious, respectful and insightful post, but it was written by me, Radio!

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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    On the topic of 2 healing first four:
    - Immerseus - 2 healing and/or 1 tanking works, and will reduce the length of the p1s, which should only be considered if you are getting a second swelling corruption, otherwise stick to 3 heals/2 tanks, as it makes the fight generally cleaner and reduces the risk of falling behind on healing adds later in the fight
    - Fallen Protectors - 2 healing works fine, and makes certain mechanics easier (less time in Desperate Measures phases), but also means your DPS can't be as derpy
    - Norushen - most stringent DPS race of the first 4 (first 8 even), and can easily be 2 healed if the few mechanics are done right, you will have to use cooldowns properly near the end though
    - Sha - very easy to 2 heal, and makes the fight much easier (people don't get as high pride), but you will have a couple of tight spots (high pride swelling, one healer banished, etc)

    For opening heroics, you should be expecting your DPS to at least be capable of roughly 200k average single target, any less and you may start having issues, and of course, more is always better.
    With that gear i think their DPS wont be issue. If they are doing under 200k with that gear they really need to l2p.
    We were planning to 2 heal Immerseus and Protectors next week. Atleast try it

  5. #5
    Pit Lord Radio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokrei View Post
    With that gear i think their DPS wont be issue. If they are doing under 200k with that gear they really need to l2p.
    We were planning to 2 heal Immerseus and Protectors next week. Atleast try it
    Well either way if they're capable of doing normal Garrosh then they should be capable of meeting the DPS requirements of at least Immerseus/Protectors/Sha/Galakras assuming reasonable adherance to strategy.
    You thought that this would be a serious, respectful and insightful post, but it was written by me, Radio!

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  6. #6
    There are absolutely DPS checks prior to Malkorok and anyone telling you otherwise is someone you should completely ignore. Fallen Protectors has a tight enough enrage that you will probably run into it while three healing. If you didn't hit Norushen's enrage while three-healing, I would be absolutely shocked. If you don't push Immerseus into a submerge before a second swelling corruption, the fight will be 10 times harder than it should be.

    Dropping your third healer on Immerseus is stupid, don't do it. Doing so on Protectors will require that your raid be very good about not taking any avoidable damage, and will also require not missing any corruption shock interrupts and good cooldowns to deal with Desperate measures from He (personals/immunities) and Sun (raid damage/AoE healing). I would three heal it to learn it, and if you think you need more DPS switch out the third healer.

    Norushen will probably require you to two heal the first few kills to beat his enrage, unless your DPS is great and you get cleansed quickly without overwhelming your tanks and healers with manifestations. Norushen is probably the easiest heroic for 10-man, because the only difference to the fight is a tighter DPS check. Galakras may be easier, depending on raid comp, etc.

    Sha is significantly harder than any of the other first five and you should probably not waste any time on it until you have the first three down as well as Galakras and maybe Nazgrim. It's not a heavy healing fight, if your raid is not standing in rift projectiles, so we two-healed it for progression.

    If you send 80% of your raid up the tower on Galakras, it can be two-healed without too much stress, but this makes the fight mechanics much harder to deal with (you lose a bunch of DPS time on the ground adds and the second tower will be slower to open, introducing potentially harder add waves before you are able to shoot the boss down). I would strongly urge you not to use this foolish method, as it can be easily three-healed with four people assigned to handle the towers (this boss took us two attempts because we didn't really understand how the grunts worked on the first pull).

    Iron Juggernaut has a metric ton of damage and can RNG-gib anyone who stands in a ricochet or takes ~3 ticks of borer drill in 560-ish gear. Three heal it, even if it means dealing with two siege phases instead of one.

    Dark shamans is best with three healers and three tanks using the 2/8 split (non-druid tank + healer on Kardriss [preferably disc] and everyone else on Haromm, and no, I didn't get the names wrong). We killed them in two pulls after switching to this method and I'd say it was about on par with Sha of Pride when done this way.

    Nazgrim can be two-healed, but between the new sniper add, assassins on clothies, mages hitting people with other adds on them, we found it was better to three heal. DPS doesn't have to be fantastic to push the boss to about 15% after his last defensive stance before berserk then you just pop heroism and burn while one tank does his best to control the 10% add spawn wave.

    If I were starting a new heroic group today, i would skip Immerseus and start at either Protectors or Norushen (depending on my confidence in the group). If the group was not experienced with heroic content from previous tiers, I would go: Norushen -> Galakras - Fallen Protectors -> Nazgrim -> Immerseus -> Sha of Pride -> Dark Shamans -> Iron Juggernaut -> last six in normal order.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    For opening heroics, you should be expecting your DPS to at least be capable of roughly 200k average single target, any less and you may start having issues, and of course, more is always better.
    Totally forgot to answer the main question. 200k is a good baseline that most people should be over for single target, but none of the heroics you should be starting out with are this clear-cut to measure. It's also unfair to expect the same DPS from everyone (our warlock does 366k single-target at 566 while my 569 elemental shaman alt simply isn't capable of that much output). I use the "ranking info" section of our WoL reports to see how close each of my DPSers is to the rank limit for each fight, as that is a comparison to others of the same class and spec and it makes it easier to identify under-performers without punishing them form having a less-than-OP class. Keep in mind the strategies you use will impact DPS numbers, but if 4 of your DPS are at 75% of rank limit and 1 is at 35%, it's probably a fair assumption where the problem lies.

  7. #7
    Fantastic! Thank you so much for all the information.

    When we have our A team, DPS is not an issue, however we aren't always blessed with that A team due to work and personal schedules. We 2 heal everything in normal as I was switched from a holy pally to a dps class to give our dps a kick in the butt and some good old friendly competition. So our ele (and sort of resto) shaman isn't quite top notch healing ready yet (hence why we usually rely on hitting the boss hard and fast enough to get it down without much strain on the healers). I appreciate the descriptions on which bosses are possible to pull the extra healer if we are able to do certain mechanics without much extra damage taken. Most of the dps we do take on a good night are well equipped to be hitting 200k+ on single target fights (looking at where most people sit for a fight like Juggernaut), however we do have a one or two that seem to be that on a good night and far behind on a not-so-good night.

  8. #8
    Herald of the Titans Keosen's Avatar
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    You can easily hit enrage timers on all first 4 bosses, people tend to judge after they farming the instance for months.
    I suggest try everything with 3 healers and switch to 2 only if enrage is the cause of wiping, this way the transition will be much smoother.

  9. #9
    My question is: how much dps SHOULD our dps be pulling?
    SV/BM hunter
    Combat rogue
    Assassination rogue
    Destro/Afflic lock
    Elemental shaman
    Assuming everyone is 560 minimum with cloak and meta their single target dps MINIMUM should be:

    Hunter - 180k as SV, 353k as BM. (377k is he decides to go MM)
    Rouge- 350k as combat
    Lock- 398k as destro, 295k as affliction. (410k if he decides to go demo)
    Shaman- 390k as ele

    This is of course just a average estimation. I assume your raiders are slightly higher than 560 and are above average so they should be pulling way more than these calculations.

    INFRACTED: This kind of misinformation can mislead others and is not constructive. -Nobleshield
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2014-03-20 at 03:27 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Okay View Post
    Assuming everyone is 560 minimum with cloak and meta their single target dps MINIMUM should be:

    Hunter - 180k as SV, 353k as BM. (377k is he decides to go MM)
    Rouge- 350k as combat
    Lock- 398k as destro, 295k as affliction. (410k if he decides to go demo)
    Shaman- 390k as ele

    This is of course just a average estimation. I assume your raiders are slightly higher than 560 and are above average so they should be pulling way more than these calculations.
    That is highly unrealistic.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #11
    The Patient Rangz's Avatar
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    With an avg ilvl of 564 like you say, you shouldnt run into any problems before Malkorok. You will most likely not get that far the first couple of weeks anyway, so by the time you get there, your avg ilvl should be even higher.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Okay View Post
    Assuming everyone is 560 minimum with cloak and meta their single target dps MINIMUM should be:

    Hunter - 180k as SV, 353k as BM. (377k is he decides to go MM)
    Rouge- 350k as combat
    Lock- 398k as destro, 295k as affliction. (410k if he decides to go demo)
    Shaman- 390k as ele

    This is of course just a average estimation. I assume your raiders are slightly higher than 560 and are above average so they should be pulling way more than these calculations.
    Your hunter numbers are way off, SV will beat BM on most fights and MM is trash. Don't rely on sim websites to give accurate information.

  13. #13
    Mechagnome Alassiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrael View Post
    Your hunter numbers are way off, SV will beat BM on most fights and MM is trash. Don't rely on sim websites to give accurate information.
    560 rogue doing 350k single target in combat? Ele doing 390k STDPS? U WOT?
    Last edited by Alassiel; 2014-03-20 at 03:02 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Erikrsson View Post
    560 rogue doing 350k single target in combat? Ele doing 390k STDPS? U WOT?
    Obvious troll is obvious.. Just report and move on.

    I wouldn't agree with there being no dps checks before before Malkorok. I'd say Malk actually won't be any harder on your dps when you get there with gear from 8 heroic bosses.

    DPS can also vary highly because of the mechanics of each fight, especially on Norushen because of the purification process. Of you're doing 200k each on juggernaut, though, you should be more than good. You can also make DPS more efficient by trying to tank the protectors closer together for cleave (be wary of poison in the middle though when you have to stack there) and having unpurified/multidot classes focus on the Norushen adds while your good ST dps get purified first and train the boss.

    If you're short on time, norushen is a good place to start for 10 mans.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrael View Post
    Your hunter numbers are way off, SV will beat BM on most fights and MM is trash. Don't rely on sim websites to give accurate information.
    SV never beats BM on anything other than immers (only because of pet issues.). and MM single target is extremely superior to the other two specs by a fairly large amount. The only fights worth going BM for are those that require good cleave and aoe. The only fight worth going SV for is heroic immerues because BM aoe is terrible there due to pet despawns.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Okay View Post
    SV never beats BM on anything other than immers (only because of pet issues.). and MM single target is extremely superior to the other two specs by a fairly large amount. The only fights worth going BM for are those that require good cleave and aoe. The only fight worth going SV for is heroic immerues because BM aoe is terrible there due to pet despawns.
    You remind me of that 1500mmr guy on arena junkies that tried to convince a 10x gladiator that Iron Hawk was the best talent in arena.

    Please tell me more about how much more superior MM single target dps is.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by spareoh View Post
    Fantastic! Thank you so much for all the information.

    When we have our A team, DPS is not an issue, however we aren't always blessed with that A team due to work and personal schedules. We 2 heal everything in normal as I was switched from a holy pally to a dps class to give our dps a kick in the butt and some good old friendly competition. So our ele (and sort of resto) shaman isn't quite top notch healing ready yet (hence why we usually rely on hitting the boss hard and fast enough to get it down without much strain on the healers). I appreciate the descriptions on which bosses are possible to pull the extra healer if we are able to do certain mechanics without much extra damage taken. Most of the dps we do take on a good night are well equipped to be hitting 200k+ on single target fights (looking at where most people sit for a fight like Juggernaut), however we do have a one or two that seem to be that on a good night and far behind on a not-so-good night.
    Go for 3 healers for Immerseus and Protectors, at least for starters. You get vastly more room for error and the enrage timers are very lenient. You know you have enough dps for Immerseus if you can get him down before second set of adds.

    For Norushen, go with two healers, send best dps+disc+tank and then second best dps+r.druid+tank into the first two sets of orbs and it shouldn't be too difficult to two heal, just burn cooldowns to survive while there's only one healer up. Sha of Pride definitely two heal, but emphasize dodging damage and using personal CDs and dispels for debuffs.
    Last edited by samthing; 2014-03-20 at 03:39 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Okay View Post
    Assuming everyone is 560 minimum with cloak and meta their single target dps MINIMUM should be:

    Hunter - 180k as SV, 353k as BM. (377k is he decides to go MM)
    Rouge- 350k as combat
    Lock- 398k as destro, 295k as affliction. (410k if he decides to go demo)
    Shaman- 390k as ele

    This is of course just a average estimation. I assume your raiders are slightly higher than 560 and are above average so they should be pulling way more than these calculations.

    INFRACTED: This kind of misinformation can mislead others and is not constructive. -Nobleshield
    C'mon man could you at least be a good troll?

    So, regarding the hunter, heres some info from raidbots.

    Remember, these are top 100 parses, your raiders as new to heroics, they will NOT be doing close to this, unlike mr misinformation over there

    Immerseus:
    MM: 180-200k
    BM: 300k
    SV: 330k

    Immerseus is a terrible fight to base dps on, ignore it, top parses are from allowing one or two people to whore adds, focus on tactics not dps.

    Protectors:
    MM: 330K
    SV: 530K
    BM: 600K

    I play SV on Protectors, 575, and do 410k.

    Norushen:
    MM: 240K
    SV: 430K
    BM:440K

    Another bad fight to base dps on, depends when you take an orb, etc, for example, my parses are awful for norushen because I'm usually in g4, and we go a-z, my name begins with a Q, thus I get it at like 25%.

    Sha of Pride:
    MM: 300K
    SV: 470K
    BM: 475K

    So basically, this is more for Okay than you OP, just showing how amazingly wrong he is, especially about MM.

    I'd personally recommend SV for the first four fights, along with Barrage over Glaive Toss, but if he plays better at BM, at that stage, tbh, go with that, it can also depend on guild tactics and so on.

    You'd be better off posting your log when you get it, then we can figure out if anyones doing something wrong, it's very hard to predict someones dps, gear matters sure, the cloak, meta and trinkets are a HUGE dps boost, but if a guy can't keep a rotation, he could be 580 and suck ass.

    Sims are better for looking at your own performance after the event, when you have new bosses, people are learning and make more mistakes, some pay more attention to staying alive than keeping as close to 100% uptime on XYZ, etc etc.

    Man, Okay, you are such a bad troll, you've buggered up some of your trolling btw, you've conflicted yourself in multiple posts.

    Edit: Finally banned, some justice finally prevails.
    Last edited by Toiran; 2014-03-20 at 03:59 PM.

  19. #19
    Also, if you're a 10-man team, I'd recommend starting on Norushen HM.
    It's the easiest boss number-wise and mechanism-wise. It's also a non-punitive fight, while Immerseus can be VERY punitive, probably more than Protectors.
    It is not that hard, but it can be quite painful to learn and master.
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  20. #20
    I can't tell your exact number, but on one of our earlier protectors kill the lowest was 272k. Since we did it linearly it doesn't mean weeks of farming nazgrim or galakras.
    let me tell you our first kills were borderline enrage or few seconds kiting after enrage. With that in mind if you have atleast that it should be possible. This was btw three healing it. Since then of course a lot changed, dps got higher, two healing happened, even possible to boost an undergeared alt. So just try to shoot for that since you have combat rogue, ele and lock and I believe such numbers shouldn't be too hard to produce.

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