Why were the Highbourne accepted in the night elven society?

[Deleted]

Why were the Highbourne accepted in the night elven society?

I mean, really, let's look at this. They're part of the former upper caste, and they decide arcane is good, and doesn't corrupt and those kaldorei up north are idiots. So they hide in this city and summon a demon dog from whom they syphon arcane power somehow. But then the power required to contain it grows, so the Prince starts killing some of them. Of course, he starts with those that don't agree with him or voice their opinions against summoning demons, because otherwise a coup might have occurred. And then some heroes reach the city, kill the demon dog and the crazy Prince and leave. And the bunch of Highbourne left, who, might I remind you, were loyal to the crazy Prince, were pro-arcane, pro-summoning demons, pro-killing those that have different opinions to theirs, these individuals who show the exact reason why night elves, as in the night elves up north, abandoned the arcane magic (it corrupts your body and your mind, so did the night elves believe), so these vile wretched beings... are easily accepted back into night elf society and left to teach others their ways? What?!

[Ahhdurr]

Because, uh, faction balancing issues.

[The Madgod]

"Easily accepted"

http://wowpedia.org/Quest:Report_to_Silvia
http://wowpedia.org/Sentinel_Stillbough

They weren't just brought back into the fold because the rest of the night elves let bygones be bygones. They're still not trusted. However, they had valuable resources and knowledge that the night elves did need to prepare them for the world post-Shattering. That's the reasoning.

[Deleted]

"Easily accepted"

http://wowpedia.org/Quest:Report_to_Silvia
http://wowpedia.org/Sentinel_Stillbough

They weren't just brought back into the fold because the rest of the night elves let bygones be bygones. They're still not trusted. However, they had valuable resources and knowledge that the night elves did need to prepare them for the world post-Shattering. That's the reasoning.

Yes, watched closely... on the other hand we have cases like this one:
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=40132#comments
former priestess of Elune, joined Estulan and his Highbourne mages the moment she could and forgat her dead husband.

As for the second part, it shows that the night elves do not trust the Highbourne and the Highbourne representative stresses that it's because of what happened millenia ago... when he was sucking demon dog magic and killing his Highbourne bretheren merely months ago.
This not counting that from all the powers the night elves could have taken in (like shamanism, even being paladins), they retook the one that was shown to corrupt their people.

[Deleted]

Yes, watched closely... on the other hand we have cases like this one:
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=40132#comments
former priestess of Elune, joined Estulan and his Highbourne mages the moment she could and forgat her dead husband.

As for the second part, it shows that the night elves do not trust the Highbourne and the Highbourne representative stresses that it's because of what happened millenia ago... when he was sucking demon dog magic and killing his Highbourne bretheren merely months ago.
This not counting that from all the powers the night elves could have taken in (like shamanism, even being paladins), they retook the one that was shown to corrupt their people.

Perhaps fighting alongside the Alliance, who have an abundance of magi and users of the arcane has softened them a tiny bit. Maybe they don't like it, but see a benefit to it being slightly helpful, as they have seen what it has done for the Alliance.

[The Madgod]

Yes, watched closely... on the other hand we have cases like this one:
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=40132#comments
former priestess of Elune, joined Estulan and his Highbourne mages the moment she could and forgat her dead husband.

As for the second part, it shows that the night elves do not trust the Highbourne and the Highbourne representative stresses that it's because of what happened millenia ago... when he was sucking demon dog magic and killing his Highbourne bretheren merely months ago.
This not counting that from all the powers the night elves could have taken in (like shamanism, even being paladins), they retook the one that was shown to corrupt their people.

She explains it herself, she's a scholar. Even with that example, she says "I only wish those who used to call me friend understood." so there's still little tolerance. She sounds like she's always been more neutralish on the subject.

And do the night elves know about that? Moreover, do you think that the night elves are so idealistic as to ignore a boost to their military might when the Horde (the more recent and more problematic of their enemies) is encroaching on their lands? Or supplies and knowledge to weather the Shattering? Because that's the big question. I'd say, probably not. The night elves might be a proud people, but they've survived for this long. Tyrande has shown she's willing to ally with questionable allies (the humans and orcs in Warcraft III) for an important enough reason.

So we have a degree of precedent, reasoning beyond "let's bury the hatchet", and proper reaction shown by the general night elven populace. It seems fine by those standards.

[Mic_128]

As for the second part, it shows that the night elves do not trust the Highbourne and the Highbourne representative stresses that it's because of what happened millenia ago... when he was sucking demon dog magic and killing his Highbourne bretheren merely months ago.

1. They don't know that.
2. The Prince was killing and feeding objectors to the demon-dog. What, would you go against him?

[Jokubas]

Perhaps fighting alongside the Alliance, who have an abundance of magi and users of the arcane has softened them a tiny bit. Maybe they don't like it, but see a benefit to it being slightly helpful, as they have seen what it has done for the Alliance.

To me, that's the big one.

There's no way every highborne was in on Azshara's plots, and even less that actively helped. At the time, the night elves exiled them because it seemed arcane magic was only good for evil (and the night elves were significantly less tolerant pre-World of Warcraft). In all the years since the Third War, however, the night elves have certainly learned that arcane does not automatically equal evil, and in fact, there are many other ways to bring evil (and the Legion are back anyway, so it's not like they can make things that much worse).

There are definitely going to be practical reason as well, like needing more troops, but a lot of what they hated the highborne for is kinda moot or proven irrelevant at this point. Not saying they're going to welcome them all with open arms, but you can hesitate to do something and still do it. Besides, it most assuredly isn't something everyone has accepted (Maiev was killing them and ultimately defected over it).

[Deleted]

(...)

And do the night elves know about that? Moreover, do you think that the night elves are so idealistic as to ignore a boost to their military might when the Horde (the more recent and more problematic of their enemies) is encroaching on their lands? Or supplies and knowledge to weather the Shattering? Because that's the big question. I'd say, probably not. The night elves might be a proud people, but they've survived for this long. Tyrande has shown she's willing to ally with questionable allies (the humans and orcs in Warcraft III) for an important enough reason.

So we have a degree of precedent, reasoning beyond "let's bury the hatchet", and proper reaction shown by the general night elven populace. It seems fine by those standards.

But that's the whole issue, allying with the Highbourne from Dire Maul is like allying with the Old Gods to destroy the Legion. In the end, the Highbourne are the perfect example on why arcane magic is bad. And, while humans proved that arcane magic can be used good... blood/high elves showed how much it corrupts, since they were reduced to junkies for magic, even syphoning magic from living creatures to feed their hunger. And the Highbourne did the exact same thing, only worse, they summoned demons to suck magic out of!

As I said, if there was an important enough reason, there were other options for them. They lived for 10k years alongside furbolgs who practiced shamanism in peace. They had their tauren friends who also practiced shamanism. They had the draenei, with whom they share so much in their struggle against the Legion, practice shamanism. And the Cataclysm was more related to the elements revolting, so shamanism would have been the perfect choice. Night elves had never seen how shamanism can be used badly yet they've seen it be used for good. On the other hand, they've seen arcane magic be used to perform genocide upon their species by the practitioners of it, they've seen the arcane users wither away and become junkies and syphoning arcane from living creatures, they've seen them summoning demons just to feed their hunger and killing those they do not agree with... yet they still chose arcane?

Now, you say they might have not known about what the Highbourne were doing. Let's say they didn't, although there are sentinels giving quests in Dire Maul now and the spirit night elf was quite anxious to tell you her story. What will happen when night elves find out? Will not be that Maiev's actions will become justified when she tried to kill the Highbourne? Was she not right?

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To me, that's the big one.

There's no way every highborne was in on Azshara's plots, and even less that actively helped. At the time, the night elves exiled them because it seemed arcane magic was only good for evil (and the night elves were significantly less tolerant pre-World of Warcraft). In all the years since the Third War, however, the night elves have certainly learned that arcane does not automatically equal evil, and in fact, there are many other ways to bring evil (and the Legion are back anyway, so it's not like they can make things that much worse).

There are definitely going to be practical reason as well, like needing more troops, but a lot of what they hated the highborne for is kinda moot or proven irrelevant at this point. Not saying they're going to welcome them all with open arms, but you can hesitate to do something and still do it. Besides, it most assuredly isn't something everyone has accepted (Maiev was killing them and ultimately defected over it).

But the Legion is back because of arcane magic. In the end, where was Archimode summoned into our world? Dalaran, where the fabric between worlds was weak because human mages practiced arcane magic unrestrained, being teached by high elves, the former Highbourne who were exiled for using arcane magic. Where was Kil'jaden almost summoned into our world? The Sunwell, the magical well planted by high elves to feed their hunger for arcane that weakened the fabric between universes. And by whom were they summoned? Well, Archimode was summoned by a former human mage turned necromancer. And Kil'aden by another mage, Kael'thas, who was so thirsty of power he turned against his people.

But mages have shown they aren't that evil, I mean there's Jaina, right? Yea... but she's not a night elf or a blood/high elf, is she? So, let's think of a major high/blood/night elf mage that was not corrupted by arcane magic... Rommath! Oh, wait, he helped Garrosh with his genocidal plans, plus he's a weak mana addict... hmmm... well I can't think of anyone. Can you? So maybe arcane only truly corrupts elves.

[Combatbutler]

But that's the whole issue, allying with the Highbourne from Dire Maul is like allying with the Old Gods to destroy the Legion. In the end, the Highbourne are the perfect example on why arcane magic is bad. And, while humans proved that arcane magic can be used good... blood/high elves showed how much it corrupts, since they were reduced to junkies for magic, even syphoning magic from living creatures to feed their hunger. And the Highbourne did the exact same thing, only worse, they summoned demons to suck magic out of!

There is one problem though, arcane magic is not bad at all, if used properly. It sustained the lush life on Azeroth through the well of eternity it gave the elves their long lives, it sustains the world tree. If it were ultimate corrupt the Titans would have never created a vast source for it to sustain their creation, because it would disrupt their order. To say arcane magic is bad is just plain wrong.

[The Madgod]

But that's the whole issue, allying with the Highbourne from Dire Maul is like allying with the Old Gods to destroy the Legion. In the end, the Highbourne are the perfect example on why arcane magic is bad. And, while humans proved that arcane magic can be used good... blood/high elves showed how much it corrupts, since they were reduced to junkies for magic, even syphoning magic from living creatures to feed their hunger. And the Highbourne did the exact same thing, only worse, they summoned demons to suck magic out of!

As I said, if there was an important enough reason, there were other options for them. They lived for 10k years alongside furbolgs who practiced shamanism in peace. They had their tauren friends who also practiced shamanism. They had the draenei, with whom they share so much in their struggle against the Legion, practice shamanism. And the Cataclysm was more related to the elements revolting, so shamanism would have been the perfect choice. Night elves had never seen how shamanism can be used badly yet they've seen it be used for good. On the other hand, they've seen arcane magic be used to perform genocide upon their species by the practitioners of it, they've seen the arcane users wither away and become junkies and syphoning arcane from living creatures, they've seen them summoning demons just to feed their hunger and killing those they do not agree with... yet they still chose arcane?

Now, you say they might have not known about what the Highbourne were doing. Let's say they didn't, although there are sentinels giving quests in Dire Maul now and the spirit night elf was quite anxious to tell you her story. What will happen when night elves find out? Will not be that Maiev's actions will become justified when she tried to kill the Highbourne? Was she not right?

Hardly the same scenario. The Highborne are a slightly more extreme blood elf during TBC. Again, we have a notable ally who is willing to help you against an enemy who is threatening your lands. Do you turn them down because of ideology or will you be pragmatic and take them up on their offer and watch them carefully? Because the latter is what Tyrande has been shown to do before.

They can't ally with the tauren and they are already allied with the draenei. The furbolgs were devastated by the Legion and have grown wild. As well, it's not about the Shattering itself that they're dealing with. It's about the consequences thereof. Shaman wouldn't be better than magi at this task of defending their land and helping procure resources. It's not really about healing the land, it's about defending it and gaining resources.

Personally I don't think it even matters. The Sentinels are watching them carefully, and they came at a time when the night elves needed extra help. Tauren can't help them, the furbolgs went mad, the draenei are rather isolationist. They aren't nearly as effective a resource as the Highborne.

[Combatbutler]

But the Legion is back because of arcane magic. In the end, where was Archimode summoned into our world? Dalaran, where the fabric between worlds was weak because human mages practiced arcane magic unrestrained, being teached by high elves, the former Highbourne who were exiled for using arcane magic. Where was Kil'jaden almost summoned into our world? Well, Archimode was summoned by a former human mage turned necromancer. And Kil'aden by another mage, Kael'thas, who was so thirsty of power he turned against his people.

But mages have shown they aren't that evil, I mean there's Jaina, right? Yea... but she's not a night elf or a blood/high elf, is she? So, let's think of a major high/blood/night elf mage that was not corrupted by arcane magic... Rommath! Oh, wait, he helped Garrosh with his genocidal plans, plus he's a weak mana addict... hmmm... well I can't think of anyone. Can you? So maybe arcane only truly corrupts elves.

The legion would have returned regardless of the magi meddling or not, there are still hundreds if not thousands of demons on Azeroth, in fact it was magi who kept the legion in check and only failed, because Aegwynn grew too arrogant and got her son posessed by Sargeras.

I wonger how fast the night elves would get their pangs of withdrawal, the moment all their moonwells are gone and the well of eternity as well, would be interesting to see, for a people who claim to not rely on arcane power they constantly bathe in it.

The Sunwell, the magical well planted by high elves to feed their hunger for arcane that weakened the fabric between universes. And by whom were they summoned?

You do know the high elves practiced magic safely, their runestones kept their magic hidden and their nation safe. The only reason the legion retuned to Azeroth, was because human magi screwed up.

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Now, you say they might have not known about what the Highbourne were doing. Let's say they didn't, although there are sentinels giving quests in Dire Maul now and the spirit night elf was quite anxious to tell you her story. What will happen when night elves find out? Will not be that Maiev's actions will become justified when she tried to kill the Highbourne? Was she not right?

The night elves planted another world tree in the vain attempt to regain their immortality, against the very will of nature and as a consequence was corrupted for years, until the dragons purified it.This endangered every last night elf on that tree, does that mena the druids should be executed, because their selfish desire could have met the end of their people?

[foxHeart]

Because Blizzard wanted to justify night elf mages.

[Deleted]

The night elves planted another world tree in the vain attempt to regain their immortality, against the very will of nature and as a consequence was corrupted for years, until the dragons purified it.This endangered every last night elf on that tree, does that mena the druids should be executed, because their selfish desire could have met the end of their people?

Did the tree happen to destroy the world?

[The Madgod]

Did the tree happen to destroy the world?

No, and the Highborne we see didn't either. These Highborne didn't work with Azshara, they were aligned against the Legion.

[Deleted]

The legion would have returned regardless of the magi meddling or not, there are still hundreds if not thousands of demons on Azeroth, in fact it was magi who kept the legion in check and only failed, because Aegwynn grew too arrogant and got her son posessed by Sargeras.

The Legion returned because they knew there was still a Well of Eternity on Azeroth. Without it, Azeroth would have been just a random ant colony nobody would have cared about. That's why they wanted to return in the first place. Yet they couldn't really. For, if you think about it, before the Council of Tirisfal existed, you don't see Sargeras trying to get onto Azeroth, do you? So, for over 8k years, everything was peachy? And only when humans started practicing magic did demons start pouring in?

I wonger how fast the night elves would get their pangs of withdrawal, the moment all their moonwells are gone and the well of eternity as well, would be interesting to see, for a people who claim to not rely on arcane power they constantly bathe in it.

Since when? Nobody taps the Well of Eternity under Nordrassil, that's why the tree was planted there, so nobody would use its power.
As for moonwells, the lore around them is conflicting. Some sources say that they are waters blessed by Elune (Stormrage, the book, for example, refers to them as such), some say that they're waters from Nordrassil (which makes you wonder then, why didn't the Legion use them?)

You do know the high elves practiced magic safely, their runestones kept their magic hidden and their nation safe. The only reason the legion retuned to Azeroth, was because human magi screwed up.

And one day they thought "yea, screw that protection, let's teach humans arcane magic but not tell them about the demons out there." and then demons came... what a surprise!

The night elves planted another world tree in the vain attempt to regain their immortality, against the very will of nature and as a consequence was corrupted for years, until the dragons purified it.This endangered every last night elf on that tree, does that mena the druids should be executed, because their selfish desire could have met the end of their people?

Yes, and those night elves who planted it were shown to be corrupted by the Old Gods (Fandral, who was seeing visions of his son) or simply not thinking straight due to grief (Leyara, whose child had been killed by the Horde). And they became evil. In fact, for this, we actually executed those druids!

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No, and the Highborne we see didn't either. These Highborne didn't work with Azshara, they were aligned against the Legion.

Man, Kael'thas could have fooled me when he tried to summon Kil'jaden.

Or were you speaking about the Dire Maul Highbourne? The fact that the only demons around the place are in Dire Maul or close to it (southern Desolace) kind of goes against that. Dire Maul was a spawning pool for demons. It's full of satyrs, corrupted treants and ancients, imps, a giant demon dog, etc. And there's a reason Cho'gall was attempting a ritual there, because, again, the veil between worlds was weaker there.

[The Madgod]

Man, Kael'thas could have fooled me when he tried to summon Kil'jaden.

Or were you speaking about the Dire Maul Highbourne? The fact that the only demons around the place are in Dire Maul or close to it (southern Desolace) kind of goes against that. Dire Maul was a spawning pool for demons. It's full of satyrs, corrupted treants and ancients, imps, a giant demon dog, etc. And there's a reason Cho'gall was attempting a ritual there, because, again, the veil between worlds was weaker there.

Kael'thas isn't a Highborne. He's an ancestor to one.

And yes, I'm referring to the Shen'dralar, the Highborne that returned to the night elves.

Not all the Highborne lived in Zin-Azshari, despite their obsession with the Well of Eternity. For a variety of political or personal reasons, certain members of the nobility opted to live outside the capital city. Moreover, not all night elves (or other races of Kalimdor) joined the main force of night elf defenders. Such holdouts were not necessarily resistant to the idea of joining their compatriots. Indeed, it seems likelier that these small pockets of resistance had heard nothing of the primary defending force and were unaware of the demonic invasion's massive scope.

The Shen'dralar were one of these holdout groups. These Highborne defended their city, Eldre'Thalas, as best they could during the war. As legend has it, it is said that the Ancient Goldrinn came to their aid to help them defend their city against the Burning Legion. After the Sundering, the Shen'dralar remained in the shattered city, which has since become known as Dire Maul. In the ensuing years, these Highborne continued to be isolated from the rest of night elf society, and so their subsequent dangerous actions went unnoticed by their distant kindred. They were never exiled from Kalimdor, nor have any Shen'dralar become high elves or blood elves.

They do not work with the legion. They worked against them. Any demons within the premises are used as tools and feeding vessels rather than allies.

[Combatbutler]

The Legion returned because they knew there was still a Well of Eternity on Azeroth. Without it, Azeroth would have been just a random ant colony nobody would have cared about. That's why they wanted to return in the first place. Yet they couldn't really. For, if you think about it, before the Council of Tirisfal existed, you don't see Sargeras trying to get onto Azeroth, do you? So, for over 8k years, everything was peachy? And only when humans started practicing magic did demons start pouring in?

The well is just icing on the cake, the very reason for the legions existence is the eradication of all life in the universe, to remake it in Sargeras vision. Azeroth was the only world to ever resist the legion do you honestly believe the Legion would ignore it?

Since when? Nobody taps the Well of Eternity under Nordrassil, that's why the tree was planted there, so nobody would use its power.
As for moonwells, the lore around them is conflicting. Some sources say that they are waters blessed by Elune (Stormrage, the book, for example, refers to them as such), some say that they're waters from Nordrassil (which makes you wonder then, why didn't the Legion use them?)

The very tree taps its power, from whom the night elves took their energy and the night do use its waters, some of it is in every last moonwell.

And one day they thought "yea, screw that protection, let's teach humans arcane magic but not tell them about the demons out there." and then demons came... what a surprise!

The high elves are not to blame for this, the humans messed up on their own, the elves used magic safely and told humans if they continue to use magic the way they do it is incredible dangerous and had to stop it in order to avoid problems, the humans refused, the council of tirisfal was founded.

Yes, and those night elves who planted it were shown to be corrupted by the Old Gods (Fandral, who was seeing visions of his son) or simply not thinking straight due to grief (Leyara, whose child had been killed by the Horde). And they became evil. In fact, for this, we actually executed those druids!

No we don't every last druid in the cenarion circle was involved into its planting one way or another, you blame all mages so lets blame every last druid in existence.

[Winterstrife]

I don't think the Night Elves still completely trust them, kinda like an truce born out of necessity.

[Aquamonkey]

Kael'thas isn't a Highborne. He's an ancestor to one.

*descendant