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  1. #41
    DK's laugh at magic, pallies can ignore mechanics, monks are king of AoE threat, warriors take the least damage, bears have the largest health pool, see a common theme in the tanks each excels in a different area, now think locks are ranged and fairly tanky already so they could tank the ranged bosses from a distance or bosses that need kiting .

    its not just a it would be neat thing, its a there is allot of potential that's getting wasted thing, its not even that lock would make a better tank its a lock would make different tank, and yes i know different isn't always better, in this case allot of people seem to think it would be.

    side benefits like giving the least represent class a potential population boost and potentially shortening LFG/LFR wait times

    choice is what im looking for that and blizzard to stop teasing us with lock tanks by either wiping the glyph or giving us lock tanks.

    locks have been called on to tank bosses in vanilla all xpacs apart from MoP, i know searing pain tanking with high shadow resist doesn't fit with Blizzard current tanking mentality and i know those fights are considered gimmiky by some but they are still raid fights and you still needed to beat them to progress

  2. #42
    Legendary! Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    That's a tanking problem, not a Warlock problem. Warlocks tanking isn't going to fix it either, because if Warlocks can do X and Death Knights, Warriors, Monks, Paladins and Druids can't, then it's not a mechanic they can make use of to make tanking interesting - and it would just make Warlock tanks mandatory if they did.

    I don't know what you're looking for, at all. That Warlocks should be tanks because Warlock tanks would be better than other tanks? That's just not how it works.
    I currently have 1 of each tank at 90, and with the exception of warrior, I greatly enjoy tanking on all 4 of them. (I have tanked at least 2 heroic bosses on the 4 as well).
    I also have played with DA for a bit, and find it to be very fun with a very fast pace tanking rotation.

    I personally think that the glyph itself is mostly polished. As I pointed out in the tweet, most of what he stated was already there in some form or another. In addition to that, warlocks HAVE tanked current-content bosses before (Spirit Kings and Elegon during T14).

    What I feel blizzard should do is implement Dark Apotheosis tanking full-fledge during the WoD beta. All tanking specs are getting a good mechanics change next expansion. Include Dark Apotheosis in the mechanics change, and see how it plays. Beta IS the best testing ground for everything really. If it turns out too hard to balance, or if the community view on it is mostly negative, it can be removed with no problem. If it is easy to balance, and the response to it is positive, keep it.
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  3. #43
    why do people want demo tanking so bad?

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Cocoabutterz View Post
    why do people want demo tanking so bad?
    Because I enjoyed the playstyle of DA during beta when it came to tanking. Of course it was not balanced, but I'm not talking about how it performed, but about how it felt playing a DA tank and the rotation/feel.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Cocoabutterz View Post
    why do people want demo tanking so bad?
    It's like Superman saying "I got this" to Batman. You know dam well he doesn't need the help.

    Prot Pally...sit the fuck down. I got this.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Munemasa View Post
    DK's laugh at magic, pallies can ignore mechanics, monks are king of AoE threat, warriors take the least damage, bears have the largest health pool, see a common theme in the tanks each excels in a different area, now think locks are ranged and fairly tanky already so they could tank the ranged bosses from a distance or bosses that need kiting .

    its not just a it would be neat thing, its a there is allot of potential that's getting wasted thing, its not even that lock would make a better tank its a lock would make different tank, and yes i know different isn't always better, in this case allot of people seem to think it would be.

    side benefits like giving the least represent class a potential population boost and potentially shortening LFG/LFR wait times

    choice is what im looking for that and blizzard to stop teasing us with lock tanks by either wiping the glyph or giving us lock tanks.

    locks have been called on to tank bosses in vanilla all xpacs apart from MoP, i know searing pain tanking with high shadow resist doesn't fit with Blizzard current tanking mentality and i know those fights are considered gimmiky by some but they are still raid fights and you still needed to beat them to progress
    I don't remember any warlock-tanking fights in Cataclysm or WotLK. I also don't believe that warlocks are "the least represent class." What I do believe is that tanking Leotheras, as a warlock, made me feel useful... but also felt like it wasn't a job that should be given to a DPS.

    I also can't think of any current/recent fights where warlocks would excel as a ranged-tank/kite tank.

    I'm going to point out something that you said and then comment on it: "I know those fights are considered gimmiky...". Well, yes, they are considered gimmicky... and do you know what happens to gimmicky raid mechanics? They get removed! Look at resist fights -- they were all over Vanilla and BC content... and then they stopped making them. Strangely enough, that's also when they stopped making warlock tanking fights. "Gimmick" mechanics do not last long. Look at Flame Leviathan, Blizzard's first vehicle raid fight. I might be forgetting something, but I think it was also the last vehicle raid fight. Gimmicks don't survive in WoW and warlock tanking is 100% a gimmick.

    Warlocks already get a TON of love from Blizzard. Do you really think it's in anyone's best interests to give warlocks even more love? Also, if you think giving a DPS class the ability to tank would be good for the tank population, then you haven't had to deal with warriors/paladins/druids/DKs/monks deciding to switch to tanking with no prior experience... it doesn't usually work well. You'll just add a bunch of terrible tanks into the pool.

    It would've made a lot of sense to do this back in BC or WotLK, but not now. Warlocks are DPS and they're going to stay that way for a long time.

  7. #47
    Celestalon aka Chadd Nervig (name is program) only knows numbers.

    It's obvious that a guy like him just is unable to patch fun into the game.

    1+1=fun?

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    I don't remember any warlock-tanking fights in Cataclysm or WotLK.
    Well there was the Mimiron air phase and being the Keleseth tank on Blood Prince Council but those weren't specifically the realm of Warlocks only.

    Warlocks already get a TON of love from Blizzard. Do you really think it's in anyone's best interests to give warlocks even more love?
    It's in everyone's best interest when the game is fun for everyone and things happen to keep the game fresh. What's up for debate is if this is something that is feasible or it would take too much work. It was totally cool and unique during the MoP Beta but maybe some of that was because DA was overpowered.

    But yeah, the dream of Warlock tanking in WoD is probably dead at this time but maybe if the idea keeps floating around it might be something to consider for the expac after that.
    Last edited by Rethul Ur No; 2014-04-03 at 05:18 AM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Cocoabutterz View Post
    why do people want demo tanking so bad?
    Because people feel it could be fun, and aren't just thinking that with no reason, as they have both warlocks and tank classes (1 or multiple). Being able to queue tank on a warlock to help groups that need a tank is a plus.

  10. #50
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    Because people feel it could be fun, and aren't just thinking that with no reason, as they have both warlocks and tank classes (1 or multiple). Being able to queue tank on a warlock to help groups that need a tank is a plus.
    We already know from DKs and monks that more tanking classes doesn't mean more tanks. Players are attracted more to the role than the class that does it. That's a statistical fact, it would do nothing for queue times, and the amount of players it would add 'fun' for is tiny, because of those who don't tank now, very few will switch to Warlock tank and all of a sudden find the role itself fun.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rym View Post
    Celestalon aka Chadd Nervig (name is program) only knows numbers.

    It's obvious that a guy like him just is unable to patch fun into the game.

    1+1=fun?
    I'm quite sure that just because you state his name, doesn't indicate you know more than him. Your post doesn't even make sense, you make clear its not his job to 'patch fun' then state he's unable to. What he did was give the non-exhaustive list as to why its not happening, something he is privy to and capable of.

    In short, the conclusion is that its a colossal amount of work for almost zero net benefit.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2014-04-03 at 07:05 AM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    We already know from DKs and monks that more tanking classes doesn't mean more tanks. Players are attracted more to the role than the class that does it. That's a statistical fact, it would do nothing for queue times, and the amount of players it would add 'fun' for is tiny, because of those who don't tank now, very few will switch to Warlock tank and all of a sudden find the role itself fun.
    This is incorrect, here is why when a new class is made people switch it to there main,now when you look at the prot pally/bear they did increase tank numbers why because they were given more options after itemization caught up. very very different stats are involved when you give an existing class another role option to introducing a new class.

    if they had to create all the skills from scratch yes it would be a colossal amount of work however, i severely doubt that would be the case seeing as programmers have this tendency to hoard code for later use they are also quite adept at Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V and Ctrl+F, and we all should know that if something has been Data-mined it has to have been coded into a build, and being a business who programs they should likely have daily backups if not more frequent, or if they had a power outage imagine how much work would be lost

    I have 0 issues with Celestalon, he is considerably better then GhostCrawler was as a spokesman, I DON'T agree with him being unable to patch 'Fun' into a game these new secondaries are looking to do just that all while addressing serious balancing issues, like the difference between 85-86 when it comes to the stats on gear curve

    Alysrazor in firelands requires kiting from memory, draging the babys to the worms

  12. #52
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    And yet tanking numbers this expansion have decreased...

    Look, my information is based on the facts as given by Blizzard based on their data and stats. If you want to contest that they're basically lying, then there's not really a lot else to be discussed.

  13. #53
    I believe your have miss read what i have written

    the number of tanks increased in BC because pallies and druids got to tank, the numbers stayed roughly the same in WotLK because people shifted into the new class to play with it ultimately to do the same job they did before, Cata no new class or new role for an existing so no real change there, MoP tanks became brewmasters so numbers stay about the same again.

    New Class + tanky = same number of tanks why people switch their main to the new class to do the same job with a different flare

    existing class + tanky = more tanks why people who have said class given new role on their main, so a % will switch to the new role, also people who enjoy tanking will likely take up the class temporarily with the potential to become permanent this means a win win for locks more locks for the people switching to try a new tank, and more tanks because that % that play there main, try lock tanking and enjoy it.

    not saying you or they are lying I'm saying the logic those numbers are derived from is lacking, also the number of tanks is declining because people are retiring from WoW

  14. #54
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    I have not misread anything you've written.

    Comparing Classic -> TBC transition is completely different. Those were existing specs that were simply horrible and completely useless at their supposed intended functions, which were ironed out in the first expansion. We're moving onto the fifth expansion, classes and their roles are much more clearly and firmly established.

    While there may be some truth that some DPS Warlocks may switch to tanking full time; those numbers would be tiny and have minimal impact. The overwhelming majority will continue to DPS; just like the majority of Hybrid players stick to their DPS spec. And who's to say players of other classes wouldn't ditch their tanking spec because it felt less necessary?

    The numbers may not follow what you'd logically expect, which is the reason DKs were chosen as the Hero class and why they were given 3 tanking specs at launch - it is afterall exactly what Blizzard expected to happen 'more specs = more tanks'. But they didn't, and they don't have to, the interpretation from that and from the implementation of Brewmasters suggests that players gravitate towards roles; and at this point, people looking to play tanks will have tried it on the classes that are able to and those that enjoy it, probably won't still be maining a Warlock or other Pure DPS class.

    And if the number of tanks is declining because players are leaving (not true based on recent sub figures, but anyway), that might suggest tanks are quitting disproportionately more than other roles. If that were true, I'd be questioning the future of the role of tanking, not looking for ways to railroad more players into a clearly unpopular role.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2014-04-03 at 12:21 PM.

  15. #55
    the only thing missing from vanilla was gear support int/sp plate wasn't a thing, roles however were a thing, well implemented too. so well in fact that they removed one shamans used to be tanks, (lots of people forget that or never knew it cause they came to the party to late). but the support didn't come till BC making it accessible to the masses, as opposed to just the hardcore raiders

    the number of xpacs really has nothing to do with it, people say cata was a flop/worst time of WoW,

    fact is threads like this keep popping up says clearly a reasonable percentage of warlock mainers have tried DA tanking and enjoyed it enough to lose there [email protected]#T over it not being a supported thing,

    You are right about people peeling from a a class because of role choice adjustment, allot of the people who have said if locks get tank spec I'm deleting my character, they then list their reasons usually along the lines I rolled a lock so i didnt have to tank or heal, they have nothing to say when you point out they dont have to do either if they dont want to. but they have to say it every time a thread like this pops up, on the us forums 5:1 ratio of new posters supporting it, but it usually ends up disappearing into a flame war with the same people. that being said far fewer people peel from a class after a change they don't like compared to joining a class for a change they do, otherwise warlocks would already be extinct, based on the number of bitching forum posts

    tanks being the most abused role doesn't help with the whole numbers dropping either, which is fair enough they are the hardest role to carry which again is a good reason to get some fresh blood in there.

    last i checked numbers where dropping its good to hear they are picking up again. a little bit out of touch at the moment havent played in a while.are the tank numbers being done my LFG/LFR or by spec census,

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    I don't remember any warlock-tanking fights in Cataclysm or WotLK.
    I tanked one of the Blood Princes in Wrath and kited adds during Nefarion.

  17. #57
    I would love lock tanking. DA is really cool actually and also back in wotlk they said something like: "death knight are not going to tank get over it". I may have a vision problem because i see lots of dks tanking today.

    "My name is Legion: for we are many." - Mark 5:9

  18. #58
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munemasa View Post
    the only thing missing from vanilla was gear support int/sp plate wasn't a thing, roles however were a thing, well implemented too. so well in fact that they removed one shamans used to be tanks, (lots of people forget that or never knew it cause they came to the party to late). but the support didn't come till BC making it accessible to the masses, as opposed to just the hardcore raiders
    The guide to Shaman tanking basically said that past level 40 not to bother. It was never really a thing. As for itemisation, yeah, Strength-Spirit Leather really says a lot about classic itemisation. But sure, Paladin healers were expected to wear Int Mail. And all Paladins were expected to 'heal', or rather cycle their 5 minute buffs over a 40 man raid group.

    the number of xpacs really has nothing to do with it, people say cata was a flop/worst time of WoW,
    8 years of the game, each expansion refining and clarifying the roles and purposes of specs has a lot to do with it. The success or otherwise of an expansion has very little; other than the failure of Cataclysm's talent tree redesign causing specific issues for Warlocks that resulted in bloated and broken rotations, which led to the redesign in MoP, which also led to the DA experiment. An experiment the designer who was responsible for himself said of it, that he had no idea how active mitigation would fit into the MoP tanking model, and so built it on the very outdated Wrath 'meat shield' threat magnet model. Which leads on to the next point:

    fact is threads like this keep popping up says clearly a reasonable percentage of warlock mainers have tried DA tanking and enjoyed it enough to lose there [email protected]#T over it not being a supported thing,
    I think I can count on one hand the number of players who lost their shit over it. But sure, there were plenty of players who liked the Wrath 'threat magnet' model of tanking; there are plenty today who would prefer to go back to that, and/or ignore their active mitigation for more DPS. That doesn't mean that's coming back.

    You are right about people peeling from a a class because of role choice adjustment, allot of the people who have said if locks get tank spec I'm deleting my character, they then list their reasons usually along the lines I rolled a lock so i didnt have to tank or heal, they have nothing to say when you point out they dont have to do either if they dont want to. but they have to say it every time a thread like this pops up, on the us forums 5:1 ratio of new posters supporting it, but it usually ends up disappearing into a flame war with the same people. that being said far fewer people peel from a class after a change they don't like compared to joining a class for a change they do, otherwise warlocks would already be extinct, based on the number of bitching forum posts
    Probably seen as many individual posters say something akin to 'I rolled Warlock 10 years ago to avoid the question' as I have those proponents for Warlock tanking, there just isn't anything more to add or discuss from that side of the fence. It doesn't make it any less a valid argument.

    tanks being the most abused role doesn't help with the whole numbers dropping either, which is fair enough they are the hardest role to carry which again is a good reason to get some fresh blood in there.
    It wouldn't be a meaningful number.

    last i checked numbers where dropping its good to hear they are picking up again. a little bit out of touch at the moment havent played in a while.are the tank numbers being done my LFG/LFR or by spec census,
    Waiting for an LFR tank is probably worse than its ever been, but the overall player population did increase at the last count. Even with the 90 boost, people aren't playing tanks, and they're not playing tanks because they don't want to tank. Not because their Warlock can't tank.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Waiting for an LFR tank is probably worse than its ever been, but the overall player population did increase at the last count. Even with the 90 boost, people aren't playing tanks, and they're not playing tanks because they don't want to tank. Not because their Warlock can't tank.
    You're applying your opinion on why people don't tank to everyone as a blanket statement, which is exactly what you're criticizing proponents of warlock tanking of doing. I personally would tank in a heartbeat if I could. However I hate leveling and I haven't leveled a tank class to 90. That said, I would tank on my warlock in a second if it was an option. Whether I would tank in our main raid I can't say, however I for sure would tank LFR/Dungeons in my non-raid time, and based on probability that likely means that I'm not the only one that would do that either.

  20. #60
    So a couple of things:

    First, nowhere did I say that making warlocks tanks would fix all of the problems in WoW. I simply said that being able to tank for a group that needed a tank is a plus for people, hence the desire.

    Second, just because you identify as a main spec tank doesn't just make you a "tank" any more than how main spec healers/DPS are only stuck healing/DPSing. There are both offspecs and alts in game. While the number of main spec tanks ("tanks") probably won't change, making more classes able to tank will increase the number of people who have tanking ability at a given moment. This includes main spec healers, main spec DPS, and main spec tanks who are on alts.

    That said I agree on a couple of things, it's not going to be a magic bullet to solve problems in the game, and people who expect something radically different would be extremely disappointed to realize any hypothetical "warlock/shaman tank" would end up being a melee tank, with similar abilities as the current tank specs, with a similar mitigation model, and a similar (though with its own idiosyncrasies, of course) play style.

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