Celestalon on Demo tanking

[xskarma]

Celestalon had a twitter exchange that brought up the popular topic of Demo tanking and he used it to clearly disect why there are no Demo tanks, and why their implementation is not as easy as some people think it might be.

You can see the exchange here: https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...21582647853056

I'll put most of the tweets here as quoted bits:

Warriors getting a talent turning Prot into DPS spec. Any chance Warlocks could get a talent changing Demonology into tank spec?

Not right now. Turning Prot into DPS is trivial compared to turning Demonology into Tank.

T14 beta, Demo Tank preformance similar to other tanks. Nerfs came. Revert nerfs, rebalance, Demo tank live?

UI support, Active Mitigation skills, multiple cooldowns, talents with defensive benefit, glyphs with defensive benefit, ...

...an interesting defensive rotation, defensive value for all stats (that's gigantic), Vengeance, DPS tuning, mob control...

...abilities, defensive mechanics that scale at the right rate, community understanding, etc. Warlocks are/were nowhere close...

..to being full-fledged tanks. Sorry, it's just not the same thing.

I think we can safely state that with all this it is highly unlikely we'll see Demo tanking any time soon (if ever), considering the amount of work and re-work it would take to get all of the things Celestalon mentions.

If anyone still thinks Demo tanking should be a thing, they should probably be directed to this list and start working on a list of answers to what Celestalon has said.

[checking facts]

"Not right now." sounds promising. I've quit the game, but if on a future expansion they were to add demo tanking, I'd seriously consider returning.

[Jessicka]

Aside from Glyphs, I don't think there's anything new he (or GC) have said that wasn't simply rebuked to the "T14 Beta" tweet... Which I might add wasn't "similar" performance to actual tanks, it was an absolutely massive relative overperformance. The killing blow was ultimately Crit Immunity removal, even after a long series of Mastery nerfs which proved inadequate to bring it simply in line.

[Count Zero]

We've addressed many of these in the various Lock Tanking threads. We know they keep tabs on popular fan sites (although of course can't know whether they've seen any specific thread / post).

Some of these apply to all tanks. Defensive value of all stats ? What value does Blood get out of Crit ? So I don't think that's fair to use as an argument against, when existing tanks aren't there yet.

Fury Ward is already active mitigation. Dark Soul is a defensive cd. Could probably rework some of the talents to be DA-friendly ... maybe turn Soul Link into a cd for DA (either mitigation, or a Last Stand type if you pick Sac). And I'm just some random guy who is not getting paid for these ideas, that I'm coming up with on my own time. If I were getting paid (and thus had time set aside for it), I could probably provide an entire framework for full DA tanking inside a week. Not saying it'd be something that would get instant approval, but I think I could get a very reasonable stab at addressing their concerns within that time.

I dunno -- I think he's really reaching on some of these, trying to make it look like a lot more work than it actually is.

[Jessicka]

Some of these apply to all tanks. Defensive value of all stats ? What value does Blood get out of Crit ? So I don't think that's fair to use as an argument against, when existing tanks aren't there yet.

Yeah, I think those classes have priority on development time for adaptation to the new itemisation in WoD.

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I dunno -- I think he's really reaching on some of these, trying to make it look like a lot more work than it actually is.

I think proponents try to make it look like less work than it actually is. Ideas are one thing, implementation is quite another.

[Count Zero]

Yeah, I think those classes have priority on development time for adaptation to the new itemisation in WoD.

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I think proponents try to make it look like less work than it actually is. Ideas are one thing, implementation is quite another.

I don't deny it's more important to shore up the existing tank classes, or that the cost/benefit ratio in Blizz's perspective is not good enough to justify it. But I think it's a bit counterproductive for them to put out this list of reasons why it's too much work. Unless what they wanted was to crowdsource these problems, have us toss our ideas at them. Because if they just wanted to not do DA tanking, they could much more easily dismiss it by saying something like, "There are some limitations there, but we recognize the desire for it. On the radar, but no ETA for foreseeable future".

Giving us a list of problems is begging for folks to propose solutions to those problems. I'd say offering this list is just gonna stoke the flames.

[Jessicka]

I'm not sure that list is exhaustive, and that you're reading far more into it to even think it might be close to. GC even gave credence to the argument that players rolled the class 10 years ago to avoid the question of tanking, afterall.

Just accept it is what it is, one of those 'not happening', without saying it out right in case they change their minds or cause too much community uproar.

[Grizelda]

I could imagine the amount of work needed vs. the pay off may be a factor in whether or not it will happen.

I don't think Blizz's fear of changing things up would be a factor.

[Lovestar]

His assessment was a little heavy-handed and ignored that some of those things are implemented already, however some of the most important portions that are still 'missing' are also some of the most time-consuming to implement correctly and develop.

IMO this has an 'eventually' feeling, but 'not for WoD' also. They're seeing the demand and they're kicking it around further, but they have bigger priorities right now than complicating Tank balance with another spec.

[Soulzar]

He should know better, using the words "Not right now" ......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX5jNnDMfxA

trivial to change an "interesting defensive rotation" into an "interesting DPS rotation" ... but not the other way...
trivial to address a toolkit of mitigation cooldowns to be dps cooldowns but not the other way around...

We already have a different version of dark soul for every spec... modifying talents based on spec is not something beyond them.

I think the key point in his list is Community Understanding, its trivial for them to give a Class with DPS specs another DPS spec option, its not as politically trivial for them to give a pure dps class a new role.

[Zynx]

Honestly the tone of that conversation sounds exactly like the kind of thing they'd seriously consider implementing down the road if the requests keep up. I'm not sure how I feel about that since I dunno if I want tanking Locks to be a thing.

Having said that, I really don't see the harm in giving crit immunity back and letting taunt work correctly so people who want to mess around with a rough around the edges tank can do so. I suspect they don't because DA tanking would probably be surprisingly powerful.

[ZaneBusby]

The only fucking thing I want is to be able to queue as a tank for a heroic dungeon when you have the Glyph of Demon Hunting active, in Demo spec, possibly above a certain iLvl.


From 2012, during the MoP beta:

Just to make our intent clear, the Glyph of Demon Hunting isn't intended to turn Demonology warlocks into a tanking spec. You won't be able to queue as a tank for Dungeon Finder for instance and won't have the survivability or tools of say a Protection paladin.

Historically, warlocks felt tankier than other casters and could even off-tank some encounters. We have made an effort in Mists to recapture some of that flavor. A warlock with this glyph should feel like they are about as effective tanking as an Arms warrior who pulls out a shield and swaps to Defensive Stance, or a Feral druid who goes into Bear form. You might be able to off-tank adds or pick up an actual boss for a short period of time if the tank goes down.

To make warlocks an actual tank would take more significant changes. For example, we want tanks to have to pick up separate tanking gear than their DPS gear (this is even true of druids) and want tanks to have to give up some of their DPS potential in exchange for their survivability. In short, it needs to be a commitment, and that's the sort of thing that needs larger gameplay changes than just a glyph.

That shouldn't stop the glyph of Demon Hunting from being fun though. As you can probably tell, we are trying to make even the major glyphs more about character customization and fun.

I know GC said that you won't be able to queue as a tank for the Dungeon Finder, but he then goes on to say he wants Glyph of Demon Hunting to be as good as an Arms Warrior with a shield in Defensive stance. If an Arms Warrior from my guild can throw on a shield, hop into Defensive Stance, queue as tank for a Heroic for an instant queue, and doesn't get kicked because he outgears it so much; if Demon Hunting is supposed to be almost exactly equal to that, why the fuck can I not do exactly the same thing? -_-

[Rucati]

I know GC said that you won't be able to queue as a tank for the Dungeon Finder, but he then goes on to say he wants Glyph of Demon Hunting to be as good as an Arms Warrior with a shield in Defensive stance. If an Arms Warrior from my guild can throw on a shield, hop into Defensive Stance, queue as tank for a Heroic for an instant queue, and doesn't get kicked because he outgears it so much; if Demon Hunting is supposed to be almost exactly equal to that, why the fuck can I not do exactly the same thing? -_-

Because that Warrior is still a DPS spec, and still not a tank.

I could say "Well, how come I can spec Balance on my Druid and queue as a tank?" Well, because the option is there, that doesn't mean balance Druids are tanks. You're comparing two absurdly different things.

[ZaneBusby]

Because that Warrior is still a DPS spec, and still not a tank.

I could say "Well, how come I can spec Balance on my Druid and queue as a tank?" Well, because the option is there, that doesn't mean balance Druids are tanks. You're comparing two absurdly different things.

...Please tell me you're just trolling.

The comparison is about Demo with Glyph of Demon Hunting in Dark Apotheosis form vs. Arms with a shield in Defensive Stance.

Currently, an Arms Warrior with a shield in Defensive Stance can competently tank a Heroic dungeon. He can queue up to do exactly that, and get an instant queue for being a "tank".
Currently, a Demo Warlock with Glyph of Demon Hunting in Dark Apotheosis form can competently tank a Heroic dungeon. He can't queue up to do exactly that, and has to sit through a DPS queue. Then if he even wanted to try tanking in his Dark Apo form, he'd get kicked from the group, because it isn't his "role", and it'd just piss off whoever was actually queued as the "tank".
Currently, a Balance Druid in Guardian form cannot competently tank a Heroic dungeon, and if he tried to queue as tank just to skip the queue, he'd get kicked within a minute for being such a fucking scrub.

YOU are the one comparing apples to oranges.

[Jessicka]

You don't need DA to tank a Heroic dungeon or Scenario as a Warlock at this point. Heroic dungeons are simply not relevant content.

[Rucati]

...Please tell me you're just trolling.

The comparison is about Demo with Glyph of Demon Hunting in Dark Apotheosis form vs. Arms with a shield in Defensive Stance.

Currently, an Arms Warrior with a shield in Defensive Stance can competently tank a Heroic dungeon. He can queue up to do exactly that, and get an instant queue for being a "tank".
Currently, a Demo Warlock with Glyph of Demon Hunting in Dark Apotheosis form can competently tank a Heroic dungeon. He can't queue up to do exactly that, and has to sit through a DPS queue. Then if he even wanted to try tanking in his Dark Apo form, he'd get kicked from the group, because it isn't his "role", and it'd just piss off whoever was actually queued as the "tank".
Currently, a Balance Druid in Guardian form cannot competently tank a Heroic dungeon, and if he tried to queue as tank just to skip the queue, he'd get kicked within a minute for being such a fucking scrub.

YOU are the one comparing apples to oranges.

And an Enh Shaman can tank heroics, they even have Rockbiter Weapon, but they can't queue as a tank.

Currently, anybody can tank heroics. Literally. I can tank them on my Holy Priest as both the tank and the healer. I don't even need to hold aggro, because if a DPS has aggro they can tank too, because it's impossible to die in heroics.

So no, you are still comparing apples to oranges. When heroics are difficult (if that ever happens again) a DPS War with a shield won't be able to tank one. Just like a DPS War with a shield can't tank raids.

[ZaneBusby]

You don't need DA to tank a Heroic dungeon or Scenario as a Warlock at this point. Heroic dungeons are simply not relevant content.

I'm thinking about the future, not the present.

And an Enh Shaman can tank heroics, they even have Rockbiter Weapon, but they can't queue as a tank.

Currently, anybody can tank heroics. Literally. I can tank them on my Holy Priest as both the tank and the healer. I don't even need to hold aggro, because if a DPS has aggro they can tank too, because it's impossible to die in heroics.

So no, you are still comparing apples to oranges. When heroics are difficult (if that ever happens again) a DPS War with a shield won't be able to tank one. Just like a DPS War with a shield can't tank raids.

You two are missing the point. I don't give a fuck about heroics at this exact moment in time. Fuck, I can solo those right now. I'm talking about what happens when WoD rolls around, and it's nearing the end of the first tier of the expansion, so there's a handful of people with full Mythic gear. Arms warrs could start throwing on shields and being competent tanks. Demo warlocks? With Glyph of Demon Hunting they can do the same. But nope, they have to sit there and fucking DPS, because they can't queue as tank, and if they tried to tank while queued as DPS they'd get kicked.

Also Rockbiter Weapon is only 30% increased threat and 5% reduced damage taken. There's no taunt, or active mitigation, so they wouldn't be competent tanks.

Edit: Did a little more research and found shamans could get active mitigation and taunts via talents and other abilities. To be fair, I would say that if they had the talents and rockbiter weapon up, they should be able to queue as tanks too.

[Jessicka]

I'm thinking about the future, not the present.

Then an Arms Warrior isn't going to be able to tank a Heroic any better than a Boomkin could. They're talking about tanking stuff for the duration of your defensive cooldowns, in effect; not actually tanking. An Arms Warrior putting on a shield gets the defensive stats on the shield and some block, nothing else, it's really not very effective at all and I think you're reading far too much into their ability to tank effectively from that tweet.

Edit: Also worth noting that Def Stance crit immunity was removed at the same time as DA's, and instead rolled into a Prot talent.

[Mehrunes]

Why can't they stop being cowards and admit they don't like they idea and fucked up by adding that glyph in the game (especially in it's initial version) and/or pursuing Warlock tanking would cost us twenty raid tiers?

I'm not exactly sure what he means by UI support. On the Warlock side everything looks fine. Maybe he means on party side, adding tank icon on the Warlock, stuff like that. Doesn't strike me as particularly hard. We already can make any class and spec a main tank in the UI. But I guess adding small icons on top of a unit frame of a spec that would be in this case flagged as a tank by the game certainly would cost as at least three raid tiers.

Active mitigation skills. Fury Ward certainly is active mitigation. And while it's less than a Warrior used in this comparison, I'm not exactly sure what Blood Death Knights have in active mitigation other than Death Strike. And something could be added to Soul Fire, with or without Molten Core procs. Or an ability to kill your Fel Imps for a heal. Or an ability akin to current iteration of Chaotic Resources for Demonology - the more Demonic Fury you spend on that ability, the higher the defensive bonus.

Multiple cooldowns? What about, I don't know, Unending Resolve. Or already mentioned Fury Ward? Glyphed Healthstone? No? Maybe Dark Soul then, with up to two charges if you take Archimonde's Darkness? Still doesn't count? There's also Dark Regeneration, Mortal Coil and Sacrificial Pact/Dark Bargain Talents and access to Shadow Bulwark if you take Grimoire of Sacrifice and sacrifice a Voidwalker. Even Unbound Will could count in cases of dangerous magic effects or CC that can't be removed otherwise and leaves you vulnerable. Yup, we certainly lack these.

Talents with defensive benefits. Let's first take a look at the Warrior talents, since comparison to them first started this bullshit fest. First tier, mobility talents. While useful for a tank, they aren't particularly defensive. Second tier, indeed defensive talents. Third tier, CC. Useful for a tank, but not particularly defensive in my opinion. Fourth tier, more CC and Bladestorm. Bladestorm makes you immune to CC so could be used defensively I guess. Fifth tier, they are about defending the team, not yourself, which makes them utility talents, not defensive ones. Sixth tier, damage talents, two of them with CC component, the third one has root break which can have some defensive potential.

Let's take a look at Warlock talents. Warlock talents made with no tank capability in mind. First tier, defensive. Second row, CC, with one talent also being a defensive talent. And they are better CC talents than the third Warrior talent tier. Third tier, defensive. Oh, looks like we're already beating Warriors. Fourth tier, as I said already, Unbound Will can be used defensively. Fifth tier, Grimoire of Sacrifice has defensive aspect. Sixth tier, Archimonde's Darkness is a defensive talent in Dark Apotheosis.

Glyphs with defensive benefits. I don't know what game Celestalon plays, but in World of Warcraft: Mists of Pandaria 5.4.7 live, depending on the boss, up to all three major glyphs of my DPS Warlock are defensive ones. Not that the other ones I use on my DPS Warlock are DPS glyphs, they are utility, so I see no reason why tanks should get preferential treatment and get glyphs tailored to their role over having utility ones, or (a contrario to DPS Warlocks having defensive glyphs) DPS glyphs. Oh, wait, tanks are already using DPS glyphs quite often.

An interesting defensive rotation is deeply subjective thing. Right now I don't think any of the Mage specs have an interesting DPS rotation and it's a pure DPS class. And the class still exists after 10 years of having nothing but godawful DPS rotations. I don't find Destruction's rotation particularly interesting either. The horror. And that for sure means no one else ever likes Mage specs or Destruction.

Defensive value for all stats. That haste scaling of Protection Warriors. Or Crit scaling of Blood Death Knights. But hey, what about other roles? Like haste scaling of DPS Warriors? Crit scaling of Affliction Warlocks? And what about pet classes? Mastery scaling of pets. Readiness scaling of pets. Multistrike scaling of pets. But let's see. Mastery scaling would be a thing. Stamina and Armor are obvious. Multistrike attacks could potentially lead to more resource generation or they could also proc passives related to the initial ability used. Crit - "When you critically hit with a spell you (have a chance to) gain X/Y/Z defensive bonus". Or proc a Fel Imp (which you could sacrifice via active mitigation idea above). Haste means more DoT ticks right now, which leads to more resources. That's gone in WoD, but the partial tick could have some implications. There's also faster Drain Life, faster Soul Fire (which could have an active mitigation aspect). Or in tank spec you'd have innate Demonic Fury generation on top of the spell generation, that would be increased by haste (or the haste increase could be baked into spells themselves).

Vengeance. So hard. We totally didn't have a DPS version of vengeance via Archimonde's Vengeance on 5.4 PTR. Never happened. And all Vengeance effects are being completely reworked in WoD to grant so far unknown defensive bonus to existing tanks instead of AP. Totally can't be implemented here.

DPS tuning. Obviously not the point of Beta and patch PTRs.

Mob control abilities. Except for snare via Hand of Gul'dan. Hard CC in form of Fear (I think it becomes sleep in tank form?). I love Warrior's equivalent. AoE fear in case you need it. Knockback. AoE interrupt. Pet CC. Voidwalker OT (especially useful on adds that have AoE cone ability as their main attack). CC talent tier. Burning Rush to help with kiting. Nope, we have zero tools for that. None. Zilch. Nada.

Defensive mechanics that scale at the right rate. Obviously not the point of Beta/PTR either. And considering most defensive mechanics of existing tanks are flat damage taken/damage done by enemy reduction or flat health increase, where the hell is there scaling?

I honestly do not understand what the hell he means by community understanding (somewhat ironic). Just like I don't understand pretty much the rest of his inane ramblings.

[ZaneBusby]

Then an Arms Warrior isn't going to be able to tank a Heroic any better than a Boomkin could. They're talking about tanking stuff for the duration of your defensive cooldowns, in effect; not actually tanking. An Arms Warrior putting on a shield gets the defensive stats on the shield and some block, nothing else, it's really not very effective at all and I think you're reading far too much into their ability to tank effectively from that tweet.

Edit: Also worth noting that Def Stance crit immunity was removed at the same time as DA's, and instead rolled into a Prot talent.

For every single expansion since LK so far (potentially Vanilla and BC too, but I wasn't around back then), at a certain point, plate-wearing DPS are able to competently fulfil the role of a proper tank in Heroic Dungeons, and can queue as such to skip the long DPS queue. However, at the same time, everyone else is still pretty squishy and can't take many hits from mobs in Heroics.

I remember when my guild were most of the way through ICC N, me and some guildies went back and hit up the 3.3 dungeons, with a Ret Pali doing the tanking. It went perfectly fine. 8 months prior to that we absolutely NEEDED proper tanks. But at the same time, when our priest pulled aggro on one or two of the mobs, he fell over dead. Same concept happened in Cata, during the 4.3 Heroics. MoP also had a point in which plate DPS could fill the role of tanks, but anyone else died, but that's long since past, and with no new dungeons whatsoever, now anyone can waltz in and "tank" them. But with WoD, there's going to be that sweet spot again. And as it currently stands, Dark Apo is comparable to, if not better than, a plate DPS changing stance and throwing on a shield.

Also it's not that I'm reading "far too much" into the "tweet" (blue post), I'm just using it as my go-to comparison because it's what he made as a literal comparison at the time. I'm comparing Dark Apo to ALL plate DPS changing weapons/stance to be able to tank. Paladins, Warriors, and DKs.