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  1. #201
    I'd play it. Would hope the tech side was played up more than the "vengeance" side in the dps spec, though.

  2. #202
    Scarab Lord Mokoshne's Avatar
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    its a cool idea but in my opinion we will never see a demon hunter or tinker in wow. There is not enough lore or expansion types to warrant the introduction of that sort of class. Monks made sense with MoP. DK's made sense with WoTLK. What sort of expansion would an artificer work in?
    My weekly podcast can be downloaded here this week we discuss the Warlords of Draenor launch night and a butcher that goes insane

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    Monks made sense with MoP. DK's made sense with WoTLK. What sort of expansion would an artificer work in?
    In Startcraft or HotS expansion. Not a WoW expansion.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Yet to make a Warlock that is melee and incorporates the creation of Demon Hunters is a retcon for all Warlocks.
    No. Because you are adding a Demon Themed spec to a class which already incorporates the Demon theme and you'd be adding gameplay, not removing it. Growing the class, not changing it. And the DH would be a separate from Warlocks as an Aff Warlock is separate from a Demo Warlock......linked via the gameplay mechanic of the same base class, butt still two different aspects of the same baseline class.

    Blizzard keeps telling us that the way the game is set up, there are 34 classes in game that they need to be concerned with. 34...which means has its own design space with its own lore, abilities, history, gameplay, all set within the larger design space of the 11 baseline classes. Perhaps you'd be better visualising the issue that way - that the DH would effectively be a separate class encompassed within the baseline Warlock spec because of its shared theme, concepts, abilities, etc.

    The class system after all is only a gameplay abstract. Each spec is different and a specialist such as an Aff Warlock does not become a Demo Warlock overnight.

    You? You are fine with changing the design space. You don't like this part of the DH? That part won't fit? Drop it. That's doable...but you can't simply chop and change the design space and expect to have no impact on the end result. If you change the design space, there will be an impact.

    You are absolutely fine with that. It's a hypocrisy that defeats your entire argument.
    I'm fine with expanding the class. I'm totally OK with adding the DH to the Warlock; that adds gameplay and flexibility to the Warlock. That doesn't compromise either the classwide lore of the Warlock or the spec specific lore of the DH. From a game design point of view, it takes full advantage of the design space overlap - its made a liability into an asset. From a marketing point of view, it buffs one of the least popular classes and gets Demon Hunters into the game. From a developers point of view, it allows Blizzard to gain additional value form all those tanking and test models they tried.

    What I'm not fine with, what Blizzard doesn't appear to be fine with, is chopping and changing the design space so the end result, the Demon Hunter, is not what we see in game. You've been prepared to drop the lore we have for the class. To drop the name. To give away the abilities. To change the class concepts. You know there is an overlap, but your solution is to simply put another class in the same role. You've lost sight of the actual goal of the exercise...to add a Demon Hunter to the game.

    You are 100% correct that Blizzard could add a class with a totally different design space to the game. No argument there. Where you are wrong is in suggesting this would be a Demon Hunter.

    A Demon Hunter who doesn't absorb Demons for power? Who doesn't make pacts so he can use Demon Magics? Who can't turn into a Demon? Who doesn't look like a Demon Hunter? Who has no lore linkage to Demons or Illidan? Who can't even be called a Demon Hunter?

    Call it what you will...but that isn't a Demon Hunter.

    Confusing adding to the Warlocks as a retcon of some sort - and nothing need change for any of the existing specs that requires a retcon - is a result of YOUR view of the class. Noone suggests Mages couldn't have a melee spec, probably because we already have examples of BattleMages and the Highborne Enchanted Magi. Indeed, the lore we have suggests that Mages took to heart the lessons Conjurers learned in the First War and emphasised physical training as well as their more usual scholarly pursuits so they could better handle the stresses of combat -and many Alliance Warlocks used to be Mages. Plus, we already have player based caster-melee hybrids so the only "retcon" that is needed is your viewpoint that a class can't have an additional role added when it contradicts how you see the class.

    However, regardless of how you feel about the class, or the various aspects and importance of the overlap, the simple fact remains that Blizzard feels there is a design overlap. Given that, we need to ask if Blizzard is willing to either live with the resulting duplication and its associated costs, or if it is willing to change the design so there is no overlap. The answer to both appears to be no...for valid game design purposes...and as such, the question is how to add the DH to the game using the design space it has.

    If we need to use the existing design space, and aren't willing to live with duplication, then adding it as a Warlock 4th spec is the most viable option left. There's no question that a DH could be better explored as a separate class. But Blizzard gains nothing from doing so. Nor does the game. Indeed, given that the design space overlap exists, a separate class would be detrimental in many ways - impacting negatively upon existing classes and requiring Blizzard to duplicate work and costing it the opportunity to add a new class.

    No Night Elf would be a Demo-summoning Warlock. You are willing to retcon this to allow Demon Hunters to be a part of Warlocks. Do you not see the entire fallacy behind this?
    Why would no NElf ever be a Demon summoning Warlock? Why would this require a retcon? Can we not have some NElfs going rogue just as DHs appears to do? Another Athrikus or Tyranis? The Higborne? There have been NElfs Warlocks and Demon Summoners before. There's little reason we can't see such in game.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2014-03-23 at 01:52 PM.

  5. #205
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drilnos View Post
    I'd play it. Would hope the tech side was played up more than the "vengeance" side in the dps spec, though.
    Probably not honestly. The DPS spec is definitely more leaned towards the shadow-side of things. I envision it with lots of movement, fluidity, and flashy shooting. Like the DH itself from D3.

    The Technician and the Cannoneer are definitely more tech based. The Technician could always be a DPS only spec instead of healing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by fixx View Post
    In Startcraft or HotS expansion. Not a WoW expansion.
    Orcs, Elves, and Goblins with Crossbows and muskets fit in a Starcraft expansion?

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Orcs, Elves, and Goblins with Crossbows and muskets fit in a Starcraft expansion?
    Technology based class fits in a Starcraft expansion better than WoW expansion. All the technology in TBC fitted very poorly into existing WoW lore and feel. There's a reason why places like Exodar stands out and not in a good way.

  7. #207
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fixx View Post
    Technology based class fits in a Starcraft expansion better than WoW expansion. All the technology in TBC fitted very poorly into existing WoW lore and feel. There's a reason why places like Exodar stands out and not in a good way.
    What about the airships that carried us to Pandaria? Howabout Tinkertown, Gnomeregan, and Kezan? Howabout the Gnome airtstrip in Northrend? Howabout Ulduar (a raid most consider among WoW's best)? Howabout the Engineering profession? What about the Halls of Origination? What about Siegemaster Blackfuse and the Iron Juggernaut? What about the Animus Golems and Dark Animus? What about the Iron Horde?

    Technology lies throughout the game. It didn't end in TBC, and if anything it expanded wildly in MoP.

    That looks to continue in WoD where our main adversaries are technology-based.

  8. #208
    Nice effort and thought put into this. From my understanding you want this class to have a 'dual wield' spec. Which would mean creating a whole new type of item For only one class, unless they open up hunters to these 1 handers. Very unlikely. ( it would be cool to have 1 handed xbows though)

  9. #209
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightsorrow12 View Post
    Nice effort and thought put into this. From my understanding you want this class to have a 'dual wield' spec. Which would mean creating a whole new type of item For only one class, unless they open up hunters to these 1 handers. Very unlikely. ( it would be cool to have 1 handed xbows though)
    To be fair, that item is constructed by the class itself. Much like conjured items. This is done both to retain the technology flavor of the class, and not to disrupt loot tables.

    Unlike others on here, I don't think it world require a huge amount of art assets to design 8-12 new 1h gun and Xbow models for one class, and you could always just miniaturize existing models. Additionally, like the DK (Archerus) and Monk (Peak of Serenity) before it, there should be a place where only this class can go to purchase exclusive weapons and other items.

    I mean afterall, Blizzard designed weapons and armor exclusively for both Death Knights and Monks. I don't see how this would be any different.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2014-03-23 at 11:44 AM.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    That looks to continue in WoD where our main adversaries are technology-based.
    And all of it fits very poorly into world of magic and elves. Yes, goblin engineers fit poorly into the world as does tinkers and space ships and titans terraforming planets. Whole WoW lore is awful mess and adding something like tinkers wouldn't probably break the camel's back, but it would make the world just one bit messier.

    It's bit too heavy discussion for this thread because it would go far offtopic, but here's a super-short version: The inherent problem is that a world where both magic and technology is abundant doesn't really work long term because of "survival of the fittest" and one of those branches of evolution would kill of the other pretty fast. Yes, there are works of fantasy where magic and technology co-exist, but none of those have any kind of metaphysical explanation that would make it feel real.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    Neither does the Demon Hunter.


    This is a Demon Hunter.

    When Warcraft players talk about wanting to play as a Demon Hunter, that's what they're talking about. Not something completely different with the same name.

    A hamburger in a Taco Bell wrapper isn't a taco. You wouldn't seriously expect someone asking for a taco to be happy with that, would you?
    Judging from your Avatar and stuff.. you are a hardcore WC DH Fan. Leave it be. We'll never have them. Btw. we're not talking on WC Demon Hunters here. We're discussing the "ARTIFICER" Class. He uses both the DH and Tinker as examples on how it can be mixed. It's not supposed to be a Warcraft DH. It's supposed to be BASED on Warcraft, while feeling different. And he DOES deliver on that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    To be fair, that item is constructed by the class itself. Much like conjured items. This is done both to retain the technology flavor of the class, and not to disrupt loot tables.

    Unlike others on here, I don't think it world require a huge amount of art assets to design 8-12 new 1h gun and Xbow models for one class, and you could always just miniaturize existing models. Additionally, like the DK (Archerus) and Monk (Peak of Serenity) before it, there should be a place where only this class can go to purchase exclusive weapons and other items.

    I mean afterall, Blizzard designed weapons and armor exclusively for both Death Knights and Monks. I don't see how this would be any different.
    I disagree with the "only" Part. I have been standing around in Acherus as well as Peak of Serenity on my Warrior. They're both accessible due to goddamn fucking shitty flying.

  12. #212
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fixx View Post
    And all of it fits very poorly into world of magic and elves. Yes, goblin engineers fit poorly into the world as does tinkers and space ships and titans terraforming planets. Whole WoW lore is awful mess and adding something like tinkers wouldn't probably break the camel's back, but it would make the world just one bit messier.

    It's bit too heavy discussion for this thread because it would go far offtopic, but here's a super-short version: The inherent problem is that a world where both magic and technology is abundant doesn't really work long term because of "survival of the fittest" and one of those branches of evolution would kill of the other pretty fast. Yes, there are works of fantasy where magic and technology co-exist, but none of those have any kind of metaphysical explanation that would make it feel real.
    Well that's simply your opinion. You dislike technology in WoW, yet there's been technology in WoW since vanilla. Heck, one of the vanilla races rides around on a robotic ostrich, there's a large futuristic subway station beneath Stormwind and Ironforge, and Gnomeregan is full of robots, gyrocopters, and gnomes riding around in gigantic mechs. Again, we had all of that in Vanilla WoW.

    Despite all that, WoW's been going strong for 10 years and counting. It would seem that other fantasy games could use a little technology to go along with their high fantasy components.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by fixx View Post
    Technology based class fits in a Starcraft expansion better than WoW expansion. All the technology in TBC fitted very poorly into existing WoW lore and feel. There's a reason why places like Exodar stands out and not in a good way.
    If oppinions could ever be shit (which they can be) this one is.
    Technology has always been a part of WoW Lore since EVER. Even in the Old Warcraft Games you had Dwarven/Gnomish Airplaines and Tanks and shit. 2 whole Races BASE around Technology. Don't goddamn think WoW is some medieval Lord and Lady shit with shitty Knights and shit. It's FANTASY. TBC fitted VERY VERY WELL. Without Naaru Spacecraft the Draenei would've never crashed on Draenor in the First Place. WoW is based around Orcs vs Humans. And Orcs have only been a threat to the Humans and Azeroth, BECAUSE the Draenei crashed there, while being chased by the Legion. It found them and used the Orcs against them - which up to that point had lived a very peaceful life WITH the Draenei around on their Planet. And there it all began. The existing WoW Lore EXISTS because of failed Technology.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again, we had all of that in Vanilla WoW.

    It would seem that other fantasy games could use a little technology to go along with their high fantasy components.
    Quote Originally Posted by NoNamedPride View Post
    The existing WoW Lore EXISTS because of failed Technology.
    Just because its done doesnt mean it should be done. I don't think anybody can say with a straight face that the WoW lore makes sense or is a work of literary genius, but that doesn't mean anybody else should follow that path or pull WoW even further down the drain. Gnomes, goblins and technology didn't exist in the world before WC3, and back then it was more coherent. With every addition the world loses more and more of it's identity and uniqueness if you accept that "everything goes".

    And as I said above, technology and magic don't mix if you try to build a world that makes sense. One of those is inferior evultionary path and will die out.

  15. #215
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fixx View Post
    Just because its done doesnt mean it should be done. I don't think anybody can say with a straight face that the WoW lore makes sense or is a work of literary genius, but that doesn't mean anybody else should follow that path or pull WoW even further down the drain. Gnomes, goblins and technology didn't exist in the world before WC3, and back then it was more coherent. With every addition the world loses more and more of it's identity and uniqueness if you accept that "everything goes".
    Are you serious?

    We had Gnomish Submarines, Gnomish Flying machines, Goblin Zeppelins, and Oil tankers in WC2.

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Warcraft_II_units

    You don't know wtf you're talking about.

  16. #216
    Love the class concept Teriz! I think you've accomplished your goal or creating a "darker" Tinker class.

    Where's the abilities though?

  17. #217
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhamses View Post
    Love the class concept Teriz! I think you've accomplished your goal or creating a "darker" Tinker class.

    Where's the abilities though?
    Thanks. I still prefer the hammer tank style Tinker though. This was more of a compromise with technology and magical elements.

    I'll be adding abilities soon. I agree that a concept feels a bit naked without them.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by fixx View Post
    Just because its done doesnt mean it should be done.
    True. But then again...technology has always been a major part of WoW. And it's use predates WoW, back to WC2.

    WoW is a world where technology exists. Maybe you can say that either magic or technology would dominate.....but if so, there is no reason why both can't be in widespread use now. Why, even if one is better,

    As it is, the game history suggests that neither is better. Races such as the Draenei and Titans are known for both their technology and their magic. The two systems coexist even amongst races where both have been developed to a very high level. You'll likely find magic better in some ways, tech better in others. And likely you'll find the two coexisting -technomancy/

    Maybe that is nonsensical. But it is also the world the game is set in.

    Gnomes, goblins and technology didn't exist in the world before WC3
    Someone hasn't played WC2.

    With every addition the world loses more and more of it's identity and uniqueness if you accept that "everything goes".
    Its been a tech based world ever since WC2. The pure fantasy world you want ceased to exist after WC1.

    And as I said above, technology and magic don't mix if you try to build a world that makes sense. One of those is inferior evultionary path and will die out.
    Not in this game world. Nor is it the only fictional universe where magic and technology coexist.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2014-03-23 at 02:12 PM.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Not in this game world. Nor is it the only fictional universe where magic and technology coexist.

    EJL
    Yep, Star Wars being a huge example.

    You think people started walking out the theaters when Vader forced choke the officer, or when Kenobi disappeared into a pile of clothes?

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhamses View Post
    Yep, Star Wars being a huge example.

    You think people started walking out the theaters when Vader forced choke the officer, or when Kenobi disappeared into a pile of clothes?
    Babylon 5.
    Foundation series.
    Shadowrun.
    Eberron.
    TORG
    Discworld.
    Dragonlance.

    More. Even Lord of the Rings to a degree....magic meets the industrialisation of Middle Earth.

    EJL

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