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  1. #21
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    ... That's a 'Runemaster' concept, not a monk concept. Nothing to do with a monk other than have a 'healing' spec. Not even the same element, 'arcane and nature'. Not even close.
    Runemasters are monk-like arcane spellcaster and melee fighters who empower themselves with magical energies by inscribing runes onto their bodies.
    http://wowpedia.org/Runemaster

    Also Monk classes in RPGs that heal;

    Monk: Ragnarok Online
    Monk: Final Fantasy XI
    Monk: Diablo 3

  2. #22
    The Lightbringer Kathranis's Avatar
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    http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/05/...rpg-archetypes

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monk_(character_class)

    It's a pretty common archetype, I think. The trend for monks in RPGs has generally been to merge the traits of the Western priest (holy healers) with that of the Eastern monk (martial artists). This isn't always the case, but certainly enough that having a healing monk in WoW probably didn't surprise many people.

  3. #23
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/05/...rpg-archetypes

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monk_(character_class)

    It's a pretty common archetype, I think. The trend for monks in RPGs has generally been to merge the traits of the Western priest (holy healers) with that of the Eastern monk (martial artists). This isn't always the case, but certainly enough that having a healing monk in WoW probably didn't surprise many people.
    So ignoring Guild wars/RO, Monk was a melee fighter with absolutely 0 specialized healing abilities in most RPG's. D&D being *THE* source here that most look to for general fantasy settings. an IGN article in 2013 (post WoW) is not really going to be a fair source, even though it still says they're mostly a melee fighter.

    And using Diablo 3 as a source *AGAIN* is just... well it'd be infraction worthy to call it for what it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  4. #24
    ... If there is a class it's going to be Tinker/Gob Alchemist.

    Demon Hunter isn't happening. Their gimmick was meta and mana burns. Blizz hates mana drain/burn from a balance stand point and meta has already been given out. With out those two all you're left with is a rogue without stealth. There is absolutely zero design space for demon hunter.

  5. #25
    I still like the idea of this class.
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  6. #26
    I don't want another hunter.

    I want THE demon hunter.

  7. #27
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I
    Well for starters, maybe we're thinking about the wrong Demon Hunter?
    Oh hey, Remember like almost 2 years ago when we use to debate this, and I said the three specs of Demon Hunter would include:

    Melee dual weld Tank spec
    Melee dual weld caster spec (ie enhance shaman)
    Ranged dual spec (ie D3)

    and you raged that wasn't Warcraft. And now you fully endorse the idea and even found the old Artificer class as a reason why. Bravo.

  8. #28
    The Lightbringer TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    A hamburger in a Taco Bell wrapper isn't a taco. You wouldn't seriously expect someone asking for a taco to be happy with that, would you?
    Anything in a Taco Bell wrapper isn't a taco, you must've eaten there recently to be saying such crazy things.
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    Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    If you want to be disgusted, next time you kiss someone remember you've got your mouth on the end of a tube which has shit at the other end, held back by a couple of valves.

  9. #29
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    No. What you've described is a hunter with a very slight twist ('they use magic'). It's just not enough to warrant a new class. Note, btw, that in WoD hunters have a pet less option, we 'use technology' in the sense of using guns, etc and several shots in the Survival tree are magic damage.
    Some differences from the Hunter:

    -DW ranged weapons
    -Technology (turrets, Grenades)
    -The ability to Heal or Tank
    -No pets from level one
    -More mobility and agility (vaulting)
    -Heavier magic focus

    The issue we have is that all of the big design gaps have been filled. There's no obvious place where we can say "Wow there isn't a class that has anything close to these characteristics" so everything we come up with will be "It's like X and a bit of Y but with this twist...."

    PS: While I don't think it should be added, nice job outlining how you see the class. Very organized.
    Thanks for the kind words.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Being 'monk-like' doesn't make them monks. It's saying paladins are Warrior-like for wearing plate, sword and shields. Are they Warriors, then?

    Also Monk classes in RPGs that heal;
    Monk: Ragnarok Online
    Monk: Final Fantasy XI
    Monk: Diablo 3
    Ragnarok Online: I saw nothing there that suggest 'healing' other than a skill that improves passive hp/sp regen.
    Final Fantasy XI: The only 'heal' I see them is a self-heal. WoW rogues self-heal too. As do WoW warriors.
    Diablo 3: I will accept the D3 monk, even though it came basically at the same year as MoP so I'm not sure it really counts.

  11. #31
    Legendary! vindicatorx's Avatar
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    I'm sure they can easily list hundreds of reasons why it won't be.

  12. #32
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Ragnarok Online: I saw nothing there that suggest 'healing' other than a skill that improves passive hp/sp regen.
    Final Fantasy XI: The only 'heal' I see them is a self-heal. WoW rogues self-heal too. As do WoW warriors.
    Diablo 3: I will accept the D3 monk, even though it came basically at the same year as MoP so I'm not sure it really counts.
    The Monk from FF tactics heals others via his Chakra ability
    http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Monk_(Tactics)

    The Monk from RO heals because its sub class is Acolyte. At level, an Acolyte can either go Priest or Monk.

  13. #33
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    Taco Bell
    I can't help but notice the constant Taco Bell comments.

    Sorry but Taco Bell is not Prepared.


  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    Neither does the Demon Hunter.


    This is a Demon Hunter.

    When Warcraft players talk about wanting to play as a Demon Hunter, that's what they're talking about. Not something completely different with the same name.

    A hamburger in a Taco Bell wrapper isn't a taco. You wouldn't seriously expect someone asking for a taco to be happy with that, would you?
    That's Illidan. A demon hunter is never gonna look like that even if the class came out. Just like a warrior is never gonna look like Garrosh and a shamans never gonna look like Thrall.

  15. #35
    I think it'd be a lot of fun really. The game needs another ranged weapon user and mail armor user for one, especially with Hunters getting the full blown ranger setup next xpac with Lone Wolf. It would also explore some territory not yet touched by other classes.

    I've always been a massive Demon Hunter fanboy but Blizzard has effectively put the nail in the coffin for it during the MoP rework where they had a chance to rework Demonology entirely to be a true demon master but instead solidified the "demon within" approach that is a key point to Demon Hunters. Overlapping skills, aesthetics, etc. A Demon Hunter is like the Enhancement version of Shaman while Warlocks are the Elemental version with the way Blizzard has designed the class and the aesthetic themes they've pulled from.

    I've argued with Teriz over stuff in the past but something like this could fit in the game perfectly. Ranged weapons, gadgets, grenades, etc to all come together into something truly unique to the game.

    Magic laced explosives? Cool idea. It works great in other games. League for example with the Hexplosives and Hextech gear and champion themes. All popular.
    Ranged mail user? Fills two open itemization holes.
    Gadgets like D3 style sentry turrets? Nothing like it in the game so far.

    It's an idea that has potential.

  16. #36
    The next class won't be a Demon Hunter, as the class in Warcraft lore is firmly established as a melee class.

    Since release, the only 2 classes added to the game have both been melee. Expect a Ranged DPS class to be announced for the next expansion after WoD.

    This will exclude Demon Hunters, sorry to say.

  17. #37
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    Oh hey, Remember like almost 2 years ago when we use to debate this, and I said the three specs of Demon Hunter would include:

    Melee dual weld Tank spec
    Melee dual weld caster spec (ie enhance shaman)
    Ranged dual spec (ie D3)

    and you raged that wasn't Warcraft. And now you fully endorse the idea and even found the old Artificer class as a reason why. Bravo.
    It wasn't Warcraft because you attached a range spec to the a Demon Hunter concept. Demon Hunters in WC don't use bows, and it wouldn't make sense if they did.

    This concept is different because it combines the tinker concept, and the Alchemist concept, with the DH/Warden concept, with the gaps in weapons and armor ( mail and Guns/bows/xbows). I'm simply using the DH from from D3 to tie it altogether, and show how these themes can connect into an appealing package.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The Monk from FF tactics heals others via his Chakra ability
    http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Monk_(Tactics)
    The Monk from RO heals because its sub class is Acolyte. At level, an Acolyte can either go Priest or Monk.
    Hmm. It's been over six years since I last played any RO game. Do 2nd tier classes retain the abilities of the 1st tier classes? I don't think they do, but I could be wrong with that, it's been years.

  19. #39
    Mechagnome
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    This is exactly what I think the "Demon Hunter" (could very well be under a different name, likely an Artificer, tinker (probably, not, not "sinister" enough), or something similar, as the "Warcraft Demon Hunter" is completely different.) is likely to be, I think the basic concept is pretty solid, and I think it could be done without feeling too hunter-ish, there is some design overlap, but nothing near as bad as I'll discuss below:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    There are a few reasons why I don't see the "Warcraft Demon Hunter" ever being added as a playable class, although most can be summed up under "Lack of design space"

    Now, what does "Lack of design space" mean? Basically, first we outline the "feel" of the class, the lore, how the rotation feels, the role(s) the class can perform, the art for it (tier sets, what armor they use, etc.). Right here we have our first problem, if I were to summarize the Warcraft Demon Hunter in 1 sentence, it would go as follows:

    A lightly-armored, nimble warrior, who can draw upon the Dark magic of the Burning Legion itself to hunt down practitioners of demonic magic, essentially fighting fire with fire.

    This leads to a wider discussion: (1) We see the Demon Hunters of Lore basically wearing nothing but tattoos and cloth pants, so: it's a cloth class.
    (2) Uses both Shadow and Fire magic as primary sources of damage.
    (3) while no longer being an issue with WoD's ability to change primary stats, the DW nature of the class, along with a "nimble" feeling would require "agi cloth" gear
    (4) Tier gear would be demon themed, showing a lot of skin (think monk sets) maybe with blindfolds becoming a recurring theme.

    So, just after that, we're left with a cloth-wearing class that melees, as well as using fire and shadow magic that uses the Burning Legion's own power against it that wears demon-themed gear.

    Essentially you've just made a melee Warlock as every "outline" but (3) could also easily apply to warlocks. Now, I admit that this was done incredibly quickly, and covers only the most broad aspects of the demon hunter "class". the the problem is, as we dig deeper into it, we find that there are even more overlaps with warlocks.

    Let's look at what our hypothetical demon hunter might use:

    Some kind of Immolation Aura? Already in use by Demo locks

    Use your weapons for some kind of "Demonic slash/Demonic strike"? Could be renamed, but also in use by demo locks.

    Some kind of "Flames of Azzinoth" ability could work, but would likely just feel the exact same as a shammy's Fire ele totem.

    Resources? Well, not likely to use mana as a melee, as it tends to lead to "Cooldown oriented" classes like ret pallys or enhance shammies, which don't deliver on the "nimble" feeling, which leads us towards the proven area of "energy", which likely leads to some kind of chi/CP system. Hard to make one without crossing over some boundaries and feeling like a rogue with warlock abilities.

    Summoning rogue/bribed demons to assist you in combat (think demons "bribed" with potent arcane magic, the way described in the green fire quest line), well that's a domain that already screams warlock, with only a very subtle lore difference, and likely, little to no gameplay difference.

    And the most damning (pun not intended) of all: Metamorphosis, the epitome of the demon hunter's arsenal, and guess what? It has also landed in the toolkit of the demonology warlock, not in any bastardized way either, it's literally the Warcraft III Meta.

    This is basically why I think we'll never see the demon hunter as we know it in-game, at least not without Demonology getting a massive rework (which would be massively unlikely, seeing as they were just reworked in Mists). There's just not enough wiggle room in the design space for a full class, maybe a spec for warlocks at most.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now, if we look at the Diablo III Demon Hunter, but don't think of it as a "Demon Hunter", but rather as an "Artificer", while keeping some of the "Anti-demon" traits that both demon hunters share, we're left with a class can can "tell the same story", while having a much wider design space. Since OP did an awesome job outlining the class mechanically, here are some hypothesis as to what this class could "be" (It's important to note here that D3 and Warcraft are very different universes, so this is basically an attempt to "Warcraftize" the D3 Demon Hunter, as well as implementing a "Tinker that does feel too whimsical", which is one constraint given by Blizz against Tinkers.)

    (1) A warrior, stranded for a time on Outland, held captive by the Legion until his/her escape, giving him/her a burning hatred for all demons. learned to survive by stealing and reverse engineering Legion technology to make his/her own devices, now he/she passes on this knowledge and fury to a generation of new recruits both Alliance and Horde. he/she doesn't really have any magic of his/her own, but rather relies on the latent fel magic in the devices that he/she creates in the heat of battle.

    (2) Potential to use the "Hatred/Discipline" resource system, gives potential for a much wider design space if they don't need to use some kind of Focus/Energy system (Although it could be argued that Hatred is pretty close to focus, some changes would likely need to be made.) Not going too deep into this, but just listing it as a way to further increase the design space this could have without overlapping on hunters. (Note: I don't consider "uses a ranged weapon" to be any more of an overlap than saying a pally overlaps with a warrior because they both use swords.)

    (3) Unique theme for gear: Can still have a demonic look, but to diverge it from warlocks, we would see a more Plate-ish look to it (although the class itself uses mail), could have gears, other technological adornments on it as well. Only thing I would worry about is the eventuality of ending up with a set that looks like Hunter t4. Although, given that Blizzard has said they're "looking at opportunities to re-imagine old sets", this could be a golden opportunity for that.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Basically, I think OP's is pretty likely, as the design space looks something like:


    Hunter|<---------Artificer---------->...

    with the only worry being the existence of another class that uses ranged weapons, a pretty easy minefield to avoid, given the basic theme of the classes would be completely different.

    While the "Warcraft" demon hunter tends to be squished in an awkward posistion like:

    Rogue|Demon Hunter|Warlock

    No room to move at all, very easy to make them feel too much like a melee Warlock spec, or a Rogue spec with magic, and while I do agree that the likelihood of them existing at some point went up a *small* amount with the ability to add "agi cloth" without creating "int plate 2.0" issues, I don't think that comes close to tackling the creative minefield left in the wake of warlocks and rogues.
    so Warlords of Draenor is /'woɹː.loɹːdz ʌv 'ɖɹæːn.oɹː/.
    I've always loved how in an attempt to make pronunciation through text easier to understand people have created a seemingly alien cypher for which few people without a degree related to language would ever been able to understand.

  20. #40
    Lore butcher
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Zanjin/simple horde main
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...2#post25856782
    Coming soon Expansion ideas: Age of N'zoth, Assault on Agrus.

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