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  1. #1
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    5 reasons why Artificer (DH+Tinker) is the next class in WoW.

    In every class thread, the same two concepts always win out; Demon Hunters and Tinkers. Both sides argue their points ceaselessly, and neither side wishes to give the other an edge in the verbal conflict that can sometimes rage on for several weeks (the recent Tinker thread is a prime example). During these debates, an enterprising poster will chime in and ask if both sides could settle their differences by simply combining the concepts. Neither side pays this poster any attention, and continue to rage on. After all, how could you possibly reconcile the dark, sinister Demon Hunter with the little goblin in the big robot suit?

    Well for starters, maybe we're thinking about the wrong Demon Hunter?



    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/demon-hunter/

    A few months ago, I started a thread about a class called the Artificer. Artificers exist in WoW as users of magic and technology. Interestingly, the Demon Hunter in Diablo 3 is also a user of technology and magic, even sharing some interesting similarities with the heroes of WC3 and my beloved Tinker hero in HotS. Not only would this class be pretty unique, but it would also smooth over some issues that people have with both the DH concept and the Tinker concept.

    So, let's go over the 5 reasons why I think this could very well be the next class in WoW, and why I think Demon Hunter and Tinker fans could finally join together to destroy all other class concepts with their combined power.


    1.With our powers combined....

    The Demon Hunter from Diablo 3 is an interesting class concept. It combines the Shadow magic of a WC Demon Hunter with the archery of a Hunter, and the technology of a Tinker. Over the course of my investigation, I've noticed some very interesting connections between all three concepts that have led me to come to my conclusions. Let me share them with you;

    Technology

    1. They have a Skill Rune called "Tinkerer", and a passive called "Custom Engineering".
    2. They use Turrets and Grenades. Guess who also uses turrets and grenades? The Tinker hero from HotS. Gazlowe even uses the same grenade icon.
    3. They have a subset of skills called "Devices".

    If you look through the DHs abilities, you see quite a large variety of grenades and turrets. One turret for example provides shields. The other heals the party. In terms of grenades, there's everything from lightning grenades to gas grenades.

    Magic

    Demon Hunters (D3) have a wide variety of shadow-based abilities. Interestingly, if you look at the WC-styled DH in HotS, you'll notice the following similarities (besides the names);

    1. Marked for Death is eerily similar to Mark of Azzinoth.
    2. Both have Thrill of the Hunt as abilities.
    3. Both have an affinity towards Shadow Magic.

    Illidan in HotS has highly mobile abilities. Thrill of the Hunt for example would work extremely well for this type of class, and it should be included. Speaking of mobility, there's no reason the DH ability "Vault" couldn't be added too.

    Beyond shadow magic, the D3 DH also fuse magic within their tech devices.

    So how would we combine this together? The EXACT same way Blizzard combined the Demon Hunter in Diablo 3: A ranged fighter who utilizes agility, shadow tactics, and technology. We could call this class many things, but Artificer would work perfectly, since Artificers are traditionally bow/ranged fighters who combined technology, and magic. Of course fighting prowess could simply be a WoW convention.

    Pic of an Artificer from DnD;




    2.The Bow and Mail effect

    Its well established that the final WoW class is more than likely to be a mail wearer, and will more than likely use bows. However, this class also needs to be functionally different from Hunters. Well, the Artificer takes care of that problem all at once;

    1. They wear mail. Check.
    2. They use ranged weapons. Check.
    3. They use technology, have no pets, and use magic. Check.

    So now you have a class that covers the armor and weapon gaps, as well as establish a tolerable level of separation from Hunters.

    3. Design Space

    As many know, I'm a big proponent of WC3 being the core of WoW class design. I believe that all WoW classes start from the ability set of the WC3 hero units. If you look over the remaining heroes that don't have abilities within WoW classes, two pop out; The Goblin Tinker and the Goblin Alchemist. In most Tinker-based threads, the main argument that emerges is that Engineering and Alchemy already exist as professions, so a Tinker or Alchemy class is impossible. On the flip side, Demon Hunters (WC) are also derided as not having available design space due to Warlocks and Rogues taking a good portion of their design space. Both sides use Blizzard's statements to support their arguments. Anti-Tinkers say that GC called the Tinker concept too whimsical, Anti-DHers say that GC said that all the DH design space was taken.

    So let's take a step back and utilize the Diablo 3 DH concept into this mix. I've already established connections with both concepts in the D3 DH. Let's begin applying WC3 abilities to this concept and see if they work. Now unfortunately, the WC DH's abilities have already been absorbed by existing WoW classes, but the Tinker and Alchemist's abilities are wide open. We'll remove the Tinker and Alchemist abilities that are deemed too whimsical, and focus on abilities that best match up with the D3 DH's abilities;

    Pocket Factory, Acid Bomb, Cluster Rocket, Chemical Rage, Healing Spray.

    With those abilities, there's also a few more abilities that we could use that haven't been claimed by existing classes yet, and it comes from the Warden;

    Shadow Strike, Spirit of Vengeance.

    SoV works because the DH class has Vengeance, which is interestingly similar to the WC3 ability.

    Finally, we have arrows/shots. Frost Arrow, Searing Arrow, and Shadow Strike are currently unclaimed, and have potential for inclusion.

    4. Spec Flexibility

    The Technology angle allows this class to be able to tank, dps, or heal. One aspect that could potentially be interesting is ranged Tanking. Since the Alchemist from WC3 and the DH from Diablo 3 both have healing abilities based around tech, it could form a basis for a potentially interesting healing spec. DPS is a no-brainer of course, however it would be interesting if Blizzard opted for a Heal/DPS/DPS, or a Tank/DPS/DPS. I could imagine many players wanting two DPS specs intead of just one. In any case, the Artificer could easily handle any spec.

    5. Dual Wielding Guns!!!

    Yes you heard me right; The ability to Dual Wield crossbows or guns. But how would that be possible? Simple, by using the technology angle, and the classic abilities of the Artificer into a feature that allows you to take a weapon and modify it for your specialization. I call it Tinker. Here's a description;

    +Tinker: Allows the player to take weapons and reconstruct them into new more advanced forms of weaponry. The type of weapons capable of being tinkered with are dependent on spec. For example, the tank spec can create powerful hand cannons, while the DPS spec can create pistols or twin crossbows.
    And alongside this feature is another feature I took from HotS which would work quite well with this mechanic;

    +Salvage: Salvage allows you to collect Scrap from your used up contraptions and devices. You will use Scraps in the Tinker process. The more powerful or complex the weapon, the more Scraps required. Scraps are also used for cooldowns and to increase the power of certain abilities.
    With this, you could take a rifle, use Tinker, and make a pistol and have some scrap left behind. Or if there's a tank spec that uses a big hand cannon, you could take a rifle and make a larger gun. What are the implications of this? DH fans have their dark, agility based fighter, except he's hitting targets with twin pistols instead of twin glaives. Tinker fans get their tech class, with turrets, grenades, acid bombs, and lots of guns. Hunters who don't want to fight through 100 levels to finally get a petless physical ranged spec are happy too.

    Everybody wins!


    Conclusion
    So there you have it. The issue with Whimsicalness is resolved with the Tinker, and the ridiculous amount of Warlock/Rogue overlap is resolved with the Demon Hunter, creating a marriage of technology, archery, and magic into an interesting class that fills all the gap holes, what's best out of the two most popular class concepts on this forum.

    Hopefully you enjoyed the read. I'm in a bit of a rush, but I hope everything made sense. Tell me what you think in this thread and in the poll. Do you think the Artificer is a possibility in WoW?

    Thanks for reading!

    EDIT: Basic Class concept:


    The Artificer

    Theme

    The Artificer is a hero that fuses magic and technology in order to protect allies and defeat enemies.

    Core Gameplay

    +Tinker: Allows the player to take weapons and reconstruct them into new more advanced forms of weaponry. The type of weapons capable of being tinkered with are dependent on spec. For example, the tank spec can create powerful hand cannons, while the DPS spec can create pistols or twin crossbows.

    +Salvage: Salvage allows you to collect Scrap from your used up contraptions and devices. You will use Scraps in the Tinker process. The more powerful or complex the weapon, the more Scraps required. Scraps are also used for cooldowns and to increase the power of certain abilities.

    +Artifacts: Each spec is governed by an artifact. These artifacts determine the type of energy each spec receives, and how it powers their weaponry. The Artifacts are as follows: Lightning, Fire, and Shadow. Artificers can combine scraps to form an artifact to empower themselves.


    Lightning Artifact
    Fire Artifact
    Shadow Artifact

    Artifacts act as cooldowns for their respective specs. Each spec benefits differently from their artifact. Artificers can construct artifacts from Scraps. You may only have 3 Artifacts at a time, and when you use one, there is a 5 minute cooldown before you can use them again. The Technician has a shorter cooldown time than the other specs, due to the nature of the artifact's effect on its spec.


    Specs

    Cannoneer:Tank Spec

    2H: Can construct large hand cannons for tanking/protection purposes.

    Ranged tank. Uses their Tinker and salvage ability to craft large cannons to use in battle. These cannons have a much shorter range than standard guns, but are more powerful, and cause a great deal of threat. Carrying these heavy weapons makes the Cannoneer stronger and tougher than the average Artificer, making them a literal tank on the battlefield. While seemingly a brute, the Cannoneer is perfectly capable of using their wide array of devices to aid them in battle. Their artifact is Fire, due to the explosive and destructive nature of their abilities.

    Visual:


    Technician: Healing/Utility/Minor DPS

    2H or DW: Can tinker twin pistols or crossbows.

    Ranged DPS and Healing spec. Uses a variety of grenades, turrets, and guns to support allies and occasionally deal damage. The Technician uses everything from robotic turrets, to gas grenades to healing sprays, however, their DPS is generally very low, and they are much better as a supporter or healer instead of as a DPS. Lacking the sheer power of Cannoneers, and the finesse of the Stalkers, the Technicians make up for their lack of physicality with their intellectual ingenuity. Their artifact is Lightning, which grants them the ability to convert their various weapon systems from destructive to restorative in a blink of an eye.

    Visual:


    Stalker: Ranged/Melee DPS hybrid

    2H or DW: Can tinker twin pistols, or crossbows. Could potentially use melee weapons.

    A hybrid melee/Ranged spec, the Stalker is a master of elusive combat. Capable of moving in and out of the shadows and quickly dispatching their target. Their affinity towards the Shadow artifact grants them a myriad of abilities like shadow porting, more quick movements, and other dark abilities. Their shadow abilities culminate into the Vengeance ability, which transforms them into an avatar of death and destruction.

    Visual:
    Last edited by Teriz; 2014-03-23 at 12:58 AM.

  2. #2
    The Lightbringer Kathranis's Avatar
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    Nobody wants the Diablo III Demon Hunter in WoW. It's not the same thing as a Warcraft Demon Hunter, which has been heavily requested since before the game even launched.

    Might as well just suggest incorporating the Dark Ranger, it's closer to D3 Demon Hunter class concept.

  3. #3
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    Nobody wants the Diablo III Demon Hunter in WoW. It's not the same thing as a Warcraft Demon Hunter, which has been heavily requested since before the game even launched.

    Might as well just suggest incorporating the Dark Ranger, it's closer to D3 Demon Hunter class concept.
    The Dark Ranger doesn't have a technology angle, and its too close to the existing Hunter class, Warlocks, and DKs.

    The theme behind the D3 Demon Hunter works because it has a DW ranged aspect, and a technology/magic hybrid angle which gives it a lot more design space to work with. Tie it with the Artificer, a popular RPG convention, and we have all positives, no negatives.

  4. #4
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The monk doesn't have a healing angle, and its too close to the existing warrior class, rogues, and shamans.
    These threads are always fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  5. #5
    No. What you've described is a hunter with a very slight twist ('they use magic'). It's just not enough to warrant a new class. Note, btw, that in WoD hunters have a pet less option, we 'use technology' in the sense of using guns, etc and several shots in the Survival tree are magic damage.

    The issue we have is that all of the big design gaps have been filled. There's no obvious place where we can say "Wow there isn't a class that has anything close to these characteristics" so everything we come up with will be "It's like X and a bit of Y but with this twist...."

    PS: While I don't think it should be added, nice job outlining how you see the class. Very organized.
    Last edited by clevin; 2014-03-22 at 01:23 AM.

  6. #6
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    These threads are always fun.
    The Monk archetype traditionally has a healing angle.

    Also the bare-handed martial arts theme separates them from Warriors, Rogues, and Shaman.

  7. #7
    The Lightbringer Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The Dark Ranger doesn't have a technology angle
    Neither does the Demon Hunter.


    This is a Demon Hunter.

    When Warcraft players talk about wanting to play as a Demon Hunter, that's what they're talking about. Not something completely different with the same name.

    A hamburger in a Taco Bell wrapper isn't a taco. You wouldn't seriously expect someone asking for a taco to be happy with that, would you?

  8. #8
    Mechagnome Nyshade's Avatar
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    I think you guys are focusing too much on the 'Demon Hunter' part. Leave the name behind and just think that this would be a new class, so basically class (insert name here) mixes both magic and technology, ranged weapons and more.

    I don't think it's that bad, I would like to see something like that in WoW.

    Big thanks to Shyama for the sig <3

  9. #9
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    Neither does the Demon Hunter.

    This is a Demon Hunter.

    When Warcraft players talk about wanting to play as a Demon Hunter, that's what they're talking about. Not something completely different with the same name.

    A hamburger in a Taco Bell wrapper isn't a taco. You wouldn't seriously expect someone asking for a taco to be happy with that, would you?
    I certainly understand what you're saying. The problem is that that concept is too similar to existing classes to work. This concept provides the necessary fills in the game's current gaps, while also giving you a dark, shadowy warrior who dual wields.

    We could even have a "Demon Hunter" spec. They would just use twin crossbows or pistols instead of twin glaives.

  10. #10
    Herald of the Titans Revi's Avatar
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    I love the DH in Diablo 3, but if a mix of that and tinkerer was introduced to wow, i'd like the class more on the tinkering side.

    I'd really like a Tank/dps/healer class,
    Tanking was similar to SWTORs Bounty hunter with Gun/bow (1-hand) and a shield, short ranged abilities like flamethrower, bombs, defensive turrets etc. I don't like the ranged tank concept, and it'd never work in WoW (Overpowered in some fights, useless in others..).

    Dps with gun or bow (dual wield would be nice) that uses turrets, bombs, toxins and gadgets, and with shot abilities being either physical, nature or fire damage. Don't like the idea of yet another shadow magic user, we already have spriest, lock and DK.

    And Healing with a chemist concept, using potions/elixirs loaded into their bullets or coated on their arrows, with healing animations where you actually fire your weapon at an ally, healing/mitigation turret CDs, throwing vials for ground-targeted AoE heals etc.

    There's tons of inspiration to take from gnomes and goblins.. Siegecrafter being a good example of a non-whimsical Tinkerer. Forsaken apothecary is a really good basis for the chemist part of the class, and High Tinker Mekkatorque (but with a gun/bow) is a pretty tanky-looking engineer.
    Last edited by Revi; 2014-03-22 at 01:39 AM.

  11. #11
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyshade View Post
    I think you guys are focusing too much on the 'Demon Hunter' part. Leave the name behind and just think that this would be a new class, so basically class (insert name here) mixes both magic and technology, ranged weapons and more.

    I don't think it's that bad, I would like to see something like that in WoW.
    Thanks! I know its a controversial idea. However, I really think this may be the direction Blizzard is going for the next class.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The Monk archetype traditionally has a healing angle.
    I have never seen a monk archetype having a healing angle in any game other than WoW. And I've played D&D, GURPS, almost every fantasy genre game all around the PCs...

  13. #13
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyshade View Post
    I think you guys are focusing too much on the 'Demon Hunter' part. Leave the name behind and just think that this would be a new class, so basically class (insert name here) mixes both magic and technology, ranged weapons and more.

    I don't think it's that bad, I would like to see something like that in WoW.
    People are focusing on the demon hunter because these threads have gone on forever with people who want demon hunters arguing against Teriz who is dead set on tinkers. This is Teriz way of pretending to compromise, while not actually compromising at all (simply using the name from another blizzard franchise that happens to be shared). It's effectively an insult to the people he's been arguing with for the past half a year.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  14. #14
    Teriz, I like this idea, but I think you were seriously trying to troll DH fans with this one. They're not going to be happy about it....

  15. #15
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I have never seen a monk archetype having a healing angle in any game other than WoW. And I've played D&D, GURPS, almost every fantasy genre game all around the PCs...
    Really? So when I created a Monk concept that had melee healing component several months before MoP came out, was I simply ahead of the curve?

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ea-Runemasters

    Interesting how both me and Blizzard came up with similar healing Monk concepts.

  16. #16
    Lol i actually like it. As long as i can fucking vault

    Quote Originally Posted by Simulatio View Post
    A handful of people nut-busting about it on various forums does not equal popularity, and popularity does not equal good design.

  17. #17
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Really? So when I created a Monk concept that had melee healing component several months before MoP came out, was I simply ahead of the curve?

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ea-Runemasters

    Interesting how both me and Blizzard came up with similar healing Monk concepts.
    That's why you a) said they were similar to shamans (which you disagreed with here) and b) called them runemasters because you felt it wasn't a monk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  18. #18
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    That's why you a) said they were similar to shamans (which you disagreed with here) and b) called them runemasters because you felt it wasn't a monk.
    Did you not read the first paragraph?

    Let's face it, everyone loves a monk class. In early WoW, Discipline priests were supposed to take that role, unfortunately Blizzard decided to take them in a different direction. Six years later, WoW still lacks a real monk-style class. Enhancement Shaman are pretty close, but its one spec of one tree, and Enhancement Shaman are more battle mage than a traditional monk. The recent introduction of a Monk class in Diablo 3 rekindled the interest in a Monk class for WoW, and that's where we see ourselves today. Chances are the next class will be a hybrid that will be able to tank, heal, and DPS. Runemasters fit that bill in terms of flexibility, and lore. Also Monk ranks as one of the most popular class types in RPGs, which gives Blizzard plenty of incentive to implement in an aging MMO. Finally, unlike Deathknights which were very expansion-specific, you can apply Runemasters to virtually any expansion and they'll fit right in.
    I called them Runemasters because I was looking for a WoW-style Monk, and I felt that the Brewmaster was way too silly/whimsical.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Really? So when I created a Monk concept that had melee healing component several months before MoP came out, was I simply ahead of the curve?
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ea-Runemasters
    Interesting how both me and Blizzard came up with similar healing Monk concepts.
    ... That's a 'Runemaster' concept, not a monk concept. Nothing to do with a monk other than have a 'healing' spec. Not even the same element, 'arcane and nature'. Not even close.

  20. #20
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Did you not read the first paragraph?



    I called them Runemasters because I was looking for a WoW-style Monk, and I felt that the Brewmaster was way too silly/whimsical.
    Nothing in your first paragraph disagrees with what I've said, although there is a lot of questionable statements you've made in there that I'm sure will get picked at by others in this thread ^_^
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

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