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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyandor View Post
    The tool kits didn't change much in the sense of spells being added, in case of resto druids (my main) none were added unless you count efflorescence, but the way you used it changed drastically. For starters ALL spells were useful and I got to use my ENTIRE tool kit instead of the usual Rejuv/WG spam (and perhaps a nourish and SM here and there). LB wasn't very useful and Regrowth, Healing Touch, Omen of Clarity, etc were pointless.

    Early Cata until around late Fl/early DS was still a triage game, which meant still everything had its role. Triage healing was very engaging and rewarding once you got the hang of it. The load really didn't move to the healers, but to the tank and dps. They needed to start paying more attention as you couldn't save there asses constantly anymore. I definitely had to make the decision sometimes if I let a dps life or not in favor of the groups survival. You had to make a lot of on the spot decisions which mattered and your entire tool kit at your disposal was useful for that rather than having just to spam a 2-3 spells.

    If they can give that feel back with a little less mana issues in the beginning, but keeping it relevant throughout the expansion I would be very happy with it. The current way of healing is a lot less fun.
    I agree, Tier 11 and 12 was some of the most fun I've had healing. T14 was ok but friggen disc making everyone feel worthless.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Smudge View Post
    I'm saying if you're bad, do yourself a favor by playing disc priest.

    I feel like you chose not to understand what I wrote, rather than failing to understand it through some kind of disability.

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    This sounds like commentary from someone who never healed on a bunch of specs, or paid attention to how healing actually works.

    I totally reject GC's silly "Disc has been OP and we should never have let it happen" line because it was hardly ever if even briefly true.

    Atonement was never the OP feature of disc anyway. Hello, Spirit Shell.
    Uh... I healed as Holy and Disc throughout LK and as a resto druid in MoP. You were saying?

    To clarify for the reading impaired (again), I never said Atonement was THE issue. It was that the entire toolkit of Disc in MoP meant that having a disc priest as a healer in 10 mans was a HUGE advantage because of both the shields and the Atonement DPS. It was vastly OP compared to other healers at the same gear and skill level throughout T14 and 15. Even that isn't my real issue though as you'd have realized if you read for comprehension instead of debate. The Disc design had obvious issues yet they shipped it. So did early healing in Cata. The point is that *I don't trust them to nail healing design in WoD* given their missteps in prior expansions.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    To clarify for the reading impaired (again), I never said Atonement was THE issue. It was that the entire toolkit of Disc in MoP meant that having a disc priest as a healer in 10 mans was a HUGE advantage because of both the shields and the Atonement DPS. It was vastly OP compared to other healers at the same gear and skill level throughout T14 and 15.
    No, you're talking like someone who just read bad healers whining about disc on the boards.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    I just don't understand why we need a new healing model every expansion. It's like they're having a contest to see how many different combinations of wrong they can create. Instead of iterating on the same model to fix the issues they love swapping the model every time they find an issue. To me that just seems more like throwing paint at a wall praying they get lucky this time than actually solving problems.
    It's not so much that we need a new model every expansion. It's the fact that every expansion, blizzard says the same basic things. A.) We want healers' jobs to be more interesting than just casting aoe/group heals. B.) We want healers to have to pick their heal targets intelligently. C.) We want healers to occasionally have to triage heal.

    The problem is, these goals, at least to some extent, are usually met in the first raiding tier of the expansion. Maybe even the second. By the 3rd, gear scaling has gotten so out of control, these goals go straight to hell as the encounter design team is painted into the same corner they always find themselves in.

    First, healers gear scales up. They do more healing with spells, and they care less about mana efficiency, so they end up drifting to more powerful spells, often aoe/group heals in place of single-target healing which is usually cheaper. This couples with raid health increasing, so ultimately, even if healers would be healing the same percentage of health, they now heal more because they can afford bigger spells. Now, raid encounters must become tougher to give healers something to do. This means either doing more group damage, more tank damage, or more random target damage to keep healers on their toes.

    None of that works though. More raid damage just puts us in dragon soul mode. There's so much raid damage that all healers do is spam their aoe healing. Tank damage can't be high because if it is, tanks or someone else will die because the raid damage is already too high.

    Conversely, more tank damage puts us in ICC mode. Tanks take such massive spikes that the only way to keep them alive is spam heal them, which is not fun either.

    The only other option is RNG damage. This way, healers are kept on their toes and much pick their targets carefully. The problem here is that it's just frustrating for everyone involved. By the end of an expansion, RNG damage must be so high to keep up with healer gear scaling, that a single missed heal will almost always mean someone dying. That's not a good place either because now you have a whole raid getting frustrated with their healers because they didn't get lucky when they chose who to heal first.

    It sounds pessimistic, but that's mostly because every expansion I've healed since wrath, we've been given the same promises from blizzard, and they always get completely overridden by gear scaling in the first 2 raid tiers of the expansion. If they really want to keep healing in a good place, There are some things that would have to be changed far beyond what they seem to be doing.

    1 - Absorbs have to be made far less impactful. Things like Power Word: Shield are still ok provided the mana cost is balanced with the benefit, but Divine Aegis, Illuminated Healing need some pretty severe overhalls. Absorbs are counterproductive to fun healing because they effectively force healers (in this case pallies and priests) to want to heal even when there is no damage to build absorbs up. That's not a good model because there's no thought involved. It simply devolves to an always be casting mentality.

    2 - Smart Healing needs a massive reduction. If possible, aoe heals should be removed altogether or given much longer cd's on the order of 30+ seconds. As it is now, being able to spam things like Holy Radiance, Wild Growth, Prayer of Healing just makes raid damage uninteresting to deal with. Things like Light's Hammer are less of a problem. It's a long cd, so healers actually have to think about when they'll get the most value from it. Chain Heal at least has the component of needing close range to jump, but that ends up being a huge weakness of resto shammies vs. other classes in 10-man raiding, though maybe that's not a factor with the new mythic model.

    3 - Mana regen scaling needs to be brought back in check in a huge way. I'm not talking about just nerfing spirit. That doesn't do anything long term, it just makes for a crappy first tier of raiding when everyone has crappy regen and no way to do anything about it. I'm talking about bringing back active/semi-active regen mechanics. For those of you who remember pre-4.0, healers had 2 regen numbers. Casting regen vs. non-casting regen. They could actually regen significant mana by not casting for periods of time in a fight. That's really where triage needs to come from, not from having to choose between healing 1 target at 20% health vs. another. On top of that, active regen should be brought back. Shamans still have telluric currents, but at this stage, most of them don't bother because it's just not necessary with current gear. Pallies used to be able to melee for mana, but that went away in a patch. Things like that do 2 things. They give healers something to do that isn't always just spamming heals at top speed, and they can choose when to do it and for how long. In an ideal world, mana regen should be in a very specific place. Passive regen should allow you to do your most efficient rotation for an entire fight. But if you use less efficient spells, you should need to balance that with some active regen or at least some casting down-time.

  5. #105
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    I have to admit, moving to an active regeneration model sounds appealing. However, I don't think that means the 5 second rule, or even telluric currents. Healers shouldn't be forced to dps to regen mana.

    What I'd like to see is healer mana fluctuate like a destruction warlock or a rage class, with mana cd providing a state of non-flux or very massive mana gains per second to combat depletion. I don't know how viable it is to say, make a healing wave cost 25% mana but be gaining 25% a second, but chain heal requiring 90%. This would naturally limit how much aoe Healers could do without a cd of some sort, like how warriors can't spam execute sub-20% in lower gear levels.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Smudge View Post
    No, you're talking like someone who just read bad healers whining about disc on the boards.
    No, I'm talking like someone who healed throughout most of MoP and saw just how good Disc was. As a 10 man RL you were a fucking idiot if you didn't bring a Disc - great HPS *AND* about 50% of a DPS? If you had a good disc player you brought them, period. That wasn't true of any other healing spec. It was very much "get a Disc priest, then fill the other slot or two with any good healers." This may not have been the case in 25s, but it definitely was in 10s.

    You continue to miss the point, though, which really isn't about Disc at all. It's about Blizzard setting design goals and missing them by a pretty wide margin in the last two expansions so, when they say they will do X and Y in WoD, I simply don't believe them. I think they'll try and miss again in some respects and we'll be stuck with the aftereffects, just as we were in Cata and MoP. Hell, I wouldn't even mind them missing at launch if they quickly adjusted things... but they don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurzior View Post
    ...On top of that, active regen should be brought back. Shamans still have telluric currents, but at this stage, most of them don't bother because it's just not necessary with current gear. Pallies used to be able to melee for mana, but that went away in a patch. Things like that do 2 things. They give healers something to do that isn't always just spamming heals at top speed, and they can choose when to do it and for how long. In an ideal world, mana regen should be in a very specific place. Passive regen should allow you to do your most efficient rotation for an entire fight. But if you use less efficient spells, you should need to balance that with some active regen or at least some casting down-time.
    I like your whole post but wanted to comment on this specifically. I think actively doing something to regen mana would be great if a couple of things were true - all healers could do this, and the thing they do (DPS, etc) was balanced in its value to the raid. The other thing that will be needed is to match encounter design to this. If I have to use some inefficient spells to keep people alive and I never have downtime to use active regen because there's too much outgoing, unavoidable damage that will be frustrating. Note the word 'unavoidable' there... one thing that we'd also need to do is to retrain DPS to actually avoid things and use personal CDs, etc to help out.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    great HPS *AND* about 50% of a DPS?
    If (on progression content) your disc priest's DPS ever, at ANY point in this expansion, got past about 30%, maybe 35% of the median of your real DPS, your raid had a huge fucking problem, and it wasn't your choice of healers.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    I don't mind it that much (don't prefer it), but I'm certain they will change it once the qq's start pouring in (like in Cata).
    Yup. And the return of useless 5 mans will return


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  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Smudge View Post
    If (on progression content) your disc priest's DPS ever, at ANY point in this expansion, got past about 30%, maybe 35% of the median of your real DPS, your raid had a huge fucking problem, and it wasn't your choice of healers.
    well given some of the DPS we had, perhaps. But the point still remains. If I can bring a healer and get even 1/3 of a real DPS character's output that's HUGE on progression content where you'll be pushing DPS to eke out everything they can. Face it, in DPS forums if you say "eh, that guy's doing X, sure he could do 10% more, but what's the big deal" you'll hear all about close wipes on progression kills. So now imagine your DPS is doing everything they can and your kills are a close thing or you're seeing low percentage wipes. Which healer do you want, the one who can heal really well and that's it or the one who can heal really well and add 30% of a DPS' output?

    Right.

  10. #110
    I disagree, topping people off isn't bad it's just it won't be easy to do. Randoms will still have the right idea - unless they prioritise topping off someone at 80% instead of healing the guy at 20%. I think even pugs can comprehend that.

    Quote Originally Posted by beardedcandy View Post
    I understand why the devs are fawning over the idea. It would be even better if we still had spell ranks, so that players could tweak with efficiency eve more.
    Please god don't ever bring back that 2004 shit.

    If they wanted that kinda thing they wouldn't be removing the low cost low HPS heals anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smudge View Post
    If (on progression content) your disc priest's DPS ever, at ANY point in this expansion, got past about 30%, maybe 35% of the median of your real DPS, your raid had a huge fucking problem, and it wasn't your choice of healers.
    Or they outgeared the content and smite healed the whole time.
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  11. #111
    I hated healing at the start of Cataclysm when mana was scarce and health pools were outrageous, so all this talk of going back to similar system is making me kind of nervous. I prefer healing to be more of a quick-reaction thing than a careful decision-making thing. I don't want to go back to the ICC days of literally not being able to go oom even if you tried, but I'd rather not go oom halfway into a fight because someone didn't move out of the fire fast enough.

  12. #112
    LFR won't need triage. The bads will be fine in tourist mode.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I have to admit, moving to an active regeneration model sounds appealing. However, I don't think that means the 5 second rule, or even telluric currents. Healers shouldn't be forced to dps to regen mana.
    It was actually a pretty fun model for palys in wrath.
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  13. #113
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    I remember being the only healer left in our guild at catas launch. That was fun.

    Can't wait for this to happen again.

  14. #114
    "Trust us, we learned our lesson from [BC|WotLK|Cataclysm|MoP] and we'll get it right this time!"

    Sure, Watcher. Sure.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    "Trust us, we learned our lesson from [BC|WotLK|Cataclysm|MoP] and we'll get it right this time!"
    The beginning of the expansion is always kind to the 3% of players who do not pay 97% of the subscription fees.

    If Blizzard would stop doing that, the 97% would think "awesome."

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose19 View Post
    Don't make game around average players, stick to your concept. Sadly 99% of companies cater to casuals.
    Bro, you do realize that the entire reason that WoW exists is because it was meant as a casual alternative to Everquest right?

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by beardedcandy View Post
    Firstly, I LOVE the idea of triage healing. I understand why the devs are fawning over the idea. It would be even better if we still had spell ranks, so that players could tweak with efficiency eve more.

    but it just is not practical with the player base we're working with. I know that I am capable of doing it, but the average player is not very good at this game and probably won't even understand that the healing model has changed. I think blizzard overestimates how the average player understands changes in the game. anything short of huge obvious raid warnings that say 'stop topping everyone off all the time' means that millions of players will be frustrated by this new model.
    Speaking of overestimating

    If you judge the average player on X person from any given LFR, than a huge raid warning won't even matter as most (per my experience) aren't using a boss mod, or simply tunnel to much to be able to watch messages.

    Triage is imo preferred over the current spam model simply because spamming isn't engaging or remotely interesting, but if we are to judge Blizzard on their consistence and target audience over the last 3 years, then they will revert many of the proposed changes sadly!

    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    Bro, you do realize that the entire reason that WoW exists is because it was meant as a casual alternative to Everquest right?
    99% of all facts in this game are made up by the players themselves.

  18. #118
    Bro, you do realize that the entire reason that WoW exists is because it was meant as a casual alternative to Everquest right?
    99% of all facts in this game are made up by the players themselves.
    Well, the players were right on this one.

  19. #119
    Why I won't be a good healer?

    Thanks, guys....


  20. #120
    Does 'triage healing' remind anyone else of the quest you used to have to do to advance your first aid? :-)
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