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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by dahmer View Post
    Correct... and with the removal of atonement we'll have less healers and more dps. Brilliant idea!
    Current Disc Priests either stay Disc (I'm assuming they'll retain some fashion of the absorb healing which by itself is ridiculously strong), go Holy, or re-roll. This will have no effect on other healers so unless an overwhelming vast majority of healers are Disc (they aren't) then the change will have a negligible effect on the number of healers. People that play healers will continue to play a healer because they like healing while people like you can have fun in your damage spec.

  2. #162
    Dreadlord Cassidin's Avatar
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    Triage healing sounds good in theory, but in practice it has a good chance to reduce the number of healers in random groups. Triage healing does not go well with the "stand in everything and blame the healer" dps. Unfortunately far too many people DO stand in stuff and not move - and then yell abuse at the healers for not healing them. If you want to have triage healing in that kind of situation then give all healers something like "leap of faith" so they can at least yank people standing in the flames out! (note I'm not seriously suggesting they give all healers a priest ability) It's far easier to keep stupid people alive if healers are not nerfed to make triage healing needed. Sure we shouldn't HAVE to - but sometimes its a choice between abuse and healing bad.

  3. #163
    I've always wanted healing to be similar to DPs, in that you are ALWAYS healing just like a dps is ALWAYS dpsing. I was always healing on my monk, sure, but the thing is it wasn't really healing, it was pushing RM and fistweaving and when burst damage went out it was simply sniped by every smart heal. I also always wanted raids to NEVER reach 100% health, meaning that there would always be constant damage going out that could never be fully healed and each healer would always be casting a spell to heal. Obviously this means the way mana and mana regen works means healers would, realistically, have a hard time running out of mana. ie if they make aoe spells cost a lot of mana, and a raid is never at 100%, you'll have bad healers simply spam their aoe heals and not their large, cost efficient single target heals to heal the people who need it most. As opposed to only using big, costly aoe heals when the raid is incredibly low. That is fun to me, that is using some form of your brain. I'll tell you now that the current model is the dumbest, mindless form of healing I have ever experienced. You spam heals without thought, you have classes like shaman or disc priest who have their smart heals do all the work. I quit the game several months ago and I said I'll never play the game again until they fix the mess. Everything they've said to be doing has definitely sparked my interest in healing and playing again, but time will tell what they decide to do.
    Last edited by La; 2014-03-24 at 02:45 PM.

  4. #164
    i rather have it that you need to plan your heals than just spamming, easy way to see who is actually is a good healer and know their class instead of who plays the class that is strongest with spam healing.

  5. #165
    The Patient Soulscorch's Avatar
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    Compared to today's standards, the game back then was total crap. I see tens of posts from people that used to play around semi-hardcore back then to casual now in MoP. You just don't do that, sharing your nostalgia-infested opinions as 100% true facts...

    And i play druid. I decided to gear my 2nd OS since we have so much unused leather. And i went resto. In dungeons/LFR even Flex you don't need to think just jizz green numbers around. In normal you start to understand a little bit about the whole philosophy AND in Heroic you truly understand what is needed from you (take Thok HC for ex). IMO on thok we do triage healing or atleast i do and if i fail to do it atleast 1 person dies (mind you most of us need to be under 50% hp for the phase to end).

    Now i'm gonna go on other games forums and say it used to be good back then just cuz and have a laugh brb.
    Last edited by Soulscorch; 2014-03-24 at 03:02 PM.
    Face your Demons, befriend them, listen to their needs and feed them regularly in times when you and your closest ones get afflicted the least. No one likes a hungry demon on the loose.

  6. #166
    Fluffy Kitten Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulscorch View Post
    ... in Heroic you truly understand what is needed from you (take Thok HC for ex). IMO on thok we do triage healing or atleast i do and if i fail to do it atleast 1 person dies (mind you most of us need to be under 50% hp for the phase to end).
    A druid doesn't need to know jack shit about anything on Thok, just spam instants and don't need to worry about the roar.......
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    A druid doesn't need to know jack shit about anything on Thok, just spam instants and don't need to worry about the roar.......
    Thok is a terrible fight to comment on anyway. It's the epitome of bad healing design - people going from 100% to 50% to 100% in 2 seconds, crazy overpowered raid cooldowns, smart healing, instant casts. There's no triage at any point, except maybe holding back *a bit* during the last couple stacks... though it's more of a "don't cast Divine Star now you moron!" rather than any actual decision making.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by adorich View Post
    I love how you list ways the healing toolkit changed from WOTLK to Cata right after asking how the toolkit changed...
    I'm asking how they changed appreciably. Before you had a huge set of abilities to choose from but you only ever used a handful (weak fast/slow single target heal from downrank, strong fast/slow single target and an aoe heal for the most part). All Cata did was get rid of what was essentially ability bloat. So yeah, what actually changed between Cata and WotLK with regards to the toolkit?

    Cata gave every class big a 2.5 second heal and a small spammable 2.5 second heal.
    Not quite true. Druids still had 3.0 second pre-Haste cast times on Nourish and Healing Touch which was a pretty big deal at the beginning of T11.

    To have any success, you had to use those spells regardless of the class you played. Most of those other spells that made each class unique became high cost and healed much less than they did in WOTLK. With few exceptions every class felt the same. You minimize those changes, but they were huge.
    I healed throughout WotLK and Cata and I guarantee you never had to run more than 6 or so different heals on your bars in both expansions to be a great healer for any healing class.

    And I have to disagree that the classes didn't have their identities during Cata; Resto Druid and Holy Priest were primarily raid healers (as they largely were in WotLK), Disc and Holy Paladin were primarily tank healers (just like WotLK), and Resto Shamans were the jack-of-all-trades healer (wow, just like WotLK).

  9. #169
    Herald of the Titans Tharkkun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    I see the beginning of Cata argument a lot but I never really understood what the argument is supposed to be. For the most part the toolkits did not change all that much; the biggest impact was difference in mana regen between end of WotLK and beginning of Cata and that's solely a gear issue.
    Correct. They balanced the classes a bit because beacon from a holy paladin was just OP. But other than that it was pure mana issues. When you were completely out of mana after 1 trash pull it was frustrating for both the healer and the group. Rather than buff classes and re-balance raids, they lowered incoming damage across the board.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    I see the beginning of Cata argument a lot but I never really understood what the argument is supposed to be. For the most part the toolkits did not change all that much; the biggest impact was difference in mana regen between end of WotLK and beginning of Cata and that's solely a gear issue.
    No, it's not. The transition into TBC and WotLK says it wasn't solely a gear issue. They've messed with the underlying regen mechanics and rates many times, which again, is not a gear issue.

    The last time healing was cerebral, and fun in this game was Vanilla (with ranks, no smart-heals, and the 5-Second Rule). The last time it was "lame" fun (read "overpowered"), was TBC, when you stood around with a macro and roll of quarters on Circle of Healing while everyone jizzed all over your amazing healer skills on Vent. WotLK and MoP are scripted nonsense. Press this button on CD. Here comes the big mechanic, hit that raid-saver. GG. Cataclysm overhauled the entire spell cost system, using a simplified, lame version of the "right spell for the right situation" healing used in Vanilla (ranks). To the dumbed-down playerbase of WotLK, it was simply "too hard", and you were left with a smaller pool of Vanilla healers who knew how to manage it.

    As always, Tanks and DPS will complain the encounters are too easy. The fix will be their go-to, which is to start sending out massive damage spikes that require everyone to always be topped up, which removes the triage aspect completely, and once again, bases everyone else's fun on increasing the load on healers exponentially to a point where it isn't entertaining at all.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by tiporispit View Post
    No, it's not. The transition into TBC and WotLK says it wasn't solely a gear issue. They've messed with the underlying regen mechanics and rates many times, which again, is not a gear issue.
    Firstly, I'm not talking about TBC to WotLK; I'm talking about WotLK to Cata. Secondly, gear had a much bigger effect on player power for WotLK to Cata than it did for TBC to WotLK; just compare the relative health pool and healing strength increases of a max geared 70 to fresh 80 versus a max geared 80 to fresh 85. People were clearing Naxx (lol WotLK Naxx) in Sunwell gear, please show me all the guilds that cleared T11 in 25 Heroic ICC/Ruby Sanctum gear.

    As for the rest of your post I can't really comment on the Vanilla and TBC healing times since I did not heal/play during them, respectively. However, what I'm gathering from what you said is that Cata healing was more of a challenge than WotLK healing (though both models were simplistic for you), which is part of the point I was trying to make in my previous posts.

  12. #172
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    I was talking about TBC. In WotLK it was Holy Light spam. TBC was Flash of Light.
    SWP was downranked HL, once haste become a thing with SWP gear.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  13. #173
    High Overlord Ragnarohk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aakarshan View Post
    Sometimes I feel like the developers forget that playing this game is supposed to be fun.

    It isn't fun to have to sit down and drink in dungeons. It isn't fun to have your strongest single-target heal only restore about 20% of the tank's health. It doesn't feel satisfying for the healer itself and it will inevitably make life harder for healers as a whole and make the role even less appealing than it is now.
    Those are opinions not facts, I enjoy everything you stated. Being underpowered gives me more satisfaction when a boss is killed or something, IMO it's better than the overpowered, spam healing, never ooming way.

  14. #174
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarohk View Post
    Those are opinions not facts, I enjoy everything you stated. Being underpowered gives me more satisfaction when a boss is killed or something, IMO it's better than the overpowered, spam healing, never ooming way.
    That's more of a spirit scaling problem in MOP, frankly. You couldn't afford spamming in MOP in 463 gear.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    I see the beginning of Cata argument a lot but I never really understood what the argument is supposed to be. For the most part the toolkits did not change all that much; the biggest impact was difference in mana regen between end of WotLK and beginning of Cata and that's solely a gear issue.
    Healing heroic dungeons with the gear they were intended to be done at was far more difficult than it should be, because you had no mana.
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  16. #176
    Bloodsail Admiral Perkunas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    SWP was downranked HL, once haste become a thing with SWP gear.
    I actually started down-ranking Holy Light during Gruul's lair because the bastard hit so hard. By the time we got to tier 6 and SWP I rarely ever remember casting flash.
    Don't blame the casuals for making Warcraft worse. It's the unskilled masses who refuse to improve themselves and Blizzard who has decided to bribe these folks with an endless shower of purples that should draw the ire of both casual and hardcore alike. It was never about "seeing the content" for these people it's always been about the gear and their sense of entitlement.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by zoomgpally View Post
    Healing heroic dungeons with the gear they were intended to be done at was far more difficult than it should be, because you had no mana.
    I healed heroic dungeons in both pugs and premades with mostly 333/346 just fine so sorry, I can't buy that argument. Granted, dungeons took longer to complete at the beginning of Cata than end of WotLK because the GOGOGOGOGO and ignore all mechanics mindset of the later just didn't cut it for about half of the heroic Cata dungeons.

  18. #178
    While I admire Blizzard's idea here, the vast majority of wow are not good players and don't want healing to be "more challenging" or "more dynamic", they did the same thing at the start of Cata and people cried bloody murder because they didn't want to try to learn to heal more efficiently.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    Then go Shadow and pop Vampiric Embrace. Healers never should have been able to be psuedo damage dealers.
    40% of the healing classes do it, and some others have cooldowns to do it.. I'm sorry but I play a disc priest and a mistweaver because I enjoy that possibility, removing it would probably cause a lot of player to reroll dps.

    Everytime I go on my druid, paladin or shaman I feel useless because there is nothing to heal and my damage is insignificant and won't help go faster.
    Karuzo, mistweaver monk | Macphisto, discipline priest
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  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by beardedcandy View Post
    Firstly, I LOVE the idea of triage healing. I understand why the devs are fawning over the idea. It would be even better if we still had spell ranks, so that players could tweak with efficiency eve more.

    but it just is not practical with the player base we're working with. I know that I am capable of doing it, but the average player is not very good at this game and probably won't even understand that the healing model has changed. I think blizzard overestimates how the average player understands changes in the game. anything short of huge obvious raid warnings that say 'stop topping everyone off all the time' means that millions of players will be frustrated by this new model.
    It really depends on where they make it meaningful. I imagine lvl 100 dungeons, LFR and probably even normal raiding will be very easy and ´triage´ will not even come into play.

    But really my biggest problem is that if I am extrapolating all these changes correctly, it basically will mean for non-cutting edge content, healers will be spamming the same spell repeatedly on the tank. Heals will heal for less and tanks will have bigger health..

    I fundamentally don´t think it will change much for progression guild healers. But I think for non-progression healers, it will mean we will have to be casting constantly, and just the most efficient spell.

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