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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Seditian View Post
    I honestly hope all self-heals on tanks disappear. Or at least 75% of their potency. Our DK healer (heh) can easily get to 300k HPS on Malkorok, it's ridiculous. DK tanks should be the only tanks that have really potent heals (300k HPS is too high, though), other ones shouldn't.
    It's not the DK that's doing that much healing, it's his/her Blood Worms. Literally the only fight in the entire expansion where they are useful and only really in that first phase or the miasma phase if you will because there's no such thing as overhealing. Malkorok is actually an incredibly bad fight for DK's as the shield takes priority over your Blood Shield, so since you're not supposed to be taking damage and are supposed to have a green shield at all times, hopefully, you're almost always death striking for minimum amounts. Also the the worms spawn through auto attacks, it's literally not the DK, he/she's just DPSing.

    So yeah DK's are good when you overgear content, but this entire expansion they and druids have been bottom-tier.

    5.4 has been really good to Warriors, Paladins are still incredibly strong and were downright broken in TOT and Monks are just all-round good tanks and still do amazing DPS even after the 15% nerf.
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  2. #62
    Fact: Everyone should have a DPS spec or a DPS alt.

    With how cheap and easy talents are to change, there is NO reason to have two tank specs or two healing specs. Priests don't count.

    If you really want to pointlessly have two of the same specs, use your boost on a DPS class. Problem solved.


    With the gear changes, we should actually see MORE tanks and MORE healers as gearing for other roles will be SIGNIFICANTLY easier.

    DPS players who simply didn't want to or couldn't gear for another role, will simply be able to respec and have the major pieces switch as well.



    If there is a problem currently with tanks and healer, it's that neither is rewarded fairly. If a tank or healer has achieved Gold in Proving Grounds, they should have an increased chance to receive loot from the personal loot system.





    Honestly, this sounds more like a no flying thread grasping at straws.



    .

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by LookingGlass View Post
    Fact: Everyone should have a DPS spec or a DPS alt.

    With how cheap and easy talents are to change, there is NO reason to have two tank specs or two healing specs. Priests don't count.

    If you really want to pointlessly have two of the same specs, use your boost on a DPS class. Problem solved.


    With the gear changes, we should actually see MORE tanks and MORE healers as gearing for other roles will be SIGNIFICANTLY easier.

    DPS players who simply didn't want to or couldn't gear for another role, will simply be able to respec and have the major pieces switch as well.



    If there is a problem currently with tanks and healer, it's that neither is rewarded fairly. If a tank or healer has achieved Gold in Proving Grounds, they should have an increased chance to receive loot from the personal loot system.





    Honestly, this sounds more like a no flying thread grasping at straws.



    .
    The problem with your first statement is: if you want to fully enjoy the game, you do PvE and PvP. I myself am healing in PvE and DPSing in PvP on my main. I'm just a Shaman, though, so dual spec isn't that bad. I'd still like hybrids to gain a third spec though, as Enhancement can be pretty bad in a lot of fights (compared with Elemental anyway), and respeccing to another spec is really horrible and time consuming. I'm talking about having Resto/Enh, but having to spec to Elemental for a fight, it's horrible. Our Paladin has to heal/tank/dps in SoO, he often has to hearthstone and respec, takes quite a while. He doesn't even PvP or it would be even worse.

    Blizzard should just get over themselves and make life easier for hybrids, they're the reason people can raid after all, but they still get punished for it in all kinds of ways. The life of a pure DPS is INCREDIBLY easy and they get rewarded for it, which is horrible.

    The gear changes will help a lot, yes. But not enough. Leveling an alt just to have a DPS spec is a bullshit idea and you know it.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    The removal of meaningful active threat generation ruined tanking for me. Pointless to play when all you have to do is do damage like everyone else.
    Im sure you miss struggling for threat, and adding those sunder armors or whatever you did back in vanilla.
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  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I'm waiting to see. To be honest, Active Mitigation is what turned me off from tanking (I just don't like how it feels), so we'll see if I like how it feels in WoD.
    what... what?
    Active migitation turned you OFF from tanking? Its the best thing they have ever done for tanks oO

    Anyway @ op. Scenarios are made easier with a tank, and plenty of vengeance means plenty of damage from a tank aswell. The amount of dungeons does not decrease the amount of tanks at all. Its how often people run them that could... faur out do something to the amount of tanks. Tanks are not at all bad at duels or getting away from ganks so i do not at all see why you would not be encouraged to quest as a tank. 1v1 most tanks are doing very well, especially against dpssers.

    The PvP zone is a PvP zone. Its like saying wintergrasp meant there where less tanks in Wotlk.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Zabusasan View Post
    what... what?
    Active migitation turned you OFF from tanking? Its the best thing they have ever done for tanks oO

    Anyway @ op. Scenarios are made easier with a tank, and plenty of vengeance means plenty of damage from a tank aswell. The amount of dungeons does not decrease the amount of tanks at all. Its how often people run them that could... faur out do something to the amount of tanks. Tanks are not at all bad at duels or getting away from ganks so i do not at all see why you would not be encouraged to quest as a tank. 1v1 most tanks are doing very well, especially against dpssers.

    The PvP zone is a PvP zone. Its like saying wintergrasp meant there where less tanks in Wotlk.
    If anything, Ashran will bring more tanks. It really sounds like you'll be sieging a keep as well, so I'd say there will be captains/generals like in AV, which you need a tank for to properly kill them.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama View Post
    If you're pushing your buttons randomly, sure. DK was an incredible introduction and made tanking awesome. Before AM and vengeance, tanks didn't really matter besides threat and positioning the boss. Sure, spamming sunder armor in vanilla was really hard and fun and immersive and fun and all that and fun... But the playstyle today is so much better and it really lets you get some variation if you roll different tanks.
    I play(ed) Paladin and Warrior, so "pushing [my] buttons randomly" was basically the gist of it That said though I enjoyed AM a bit more on my Paladin than on my Warrior (was super excited for MoP, ended up quitting within the first month for about 5-6 months because AM on the Warrior felt so bad), but I still overall don't care for it as a concept. It just doesn't "feel" like tanking and I've almost always played a tank in any MMO that I play, so maybe it's just getting used to the change. It's not like I hated it, just it always felt strange. I'm definitely looking forward to Warlords and if I play again I'll more than likely start out as a tank, since I always do (and even when I'm DPS I get fed up with other tanks and want to go back lol).

    I'm definitely going to enjoy Vengeance not adding to DPS; that's one thing I absolutely hated was how you could scumbag vengeance to do higher DPS - I always ran with a Druid tank that was just tearing apart DPS simply because of how they work, and that never felt like the "right" way things should be. If I wanted to DPS I would play DPS; I play(ed) a tank because I liked the defensive nature of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zabusasan View Post
    what... what?
    Active migitation turned you OFF from tanking? Its the best thing they have ever done for tanks oO
    A lot of people say that, but to me it just didn't feel like tanking anymore. I actually liked Wrath/Cata tanking. AM made/makes tanking feel too much like DPS, and IMO has too much reliance on timing. It's not a terrible change, just it definitely didn't feel like tanking to me. I mean, MoP was the first time that by choice I said "You know, I really don't feel like tanking". I never said or even thought that, ever, in Wrath or Cata, to where I actually hated NOT being able to tank. MoP was the opposite.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2014-03-23 at 12:28 PM.
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  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Deruyter View Post
    I will still play my Tank simply because I love tanking.
    I think this is where the focus has to be. If people love to tank, they should tank. You can't get around the feeling of responsibility associated with a Tank/Healer role, but you can create/improve mechanics like Active Mitigation and Reactive Healing (Triage/Focus on Decision Making).

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I'm waiting to see. To be honest, Active Mitigation is what turned me off from tanking (I just don't like how it feels), so we'll see if I like how it feels in WoD.
    This is the most interesting kind of feedback on gameplay, in my opinion.

    You're probably not the only one that thinks that. So, in sum, we have a group of people that got turned off by a mechanic that was widely praised by the tank community. Turned off to the point where those people stopped tanking because of that, while other people who were tanking now enjoyed it more.

    I wonder what would be the data on how this affected the number of tanks around. It's very unlikely that we ever get access to it, but let's suppose the number of tanks decreased due to Active Mitigation. Was this a successful design? Overall number of tanks reduced, but those who kept playing now enjoy their role much more.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milkwolfgang View Post
    I wonder what would be the data on how this affected the number of tanks around. It's very unlikely that we ever get access to it, but let's suppose the number of tanks decreased due to Active Mitigation. Was this a successful design? Overall number of tanks reduced, but those who kept playing now enjoy their role much more.
    On one hand I do think it was a successful design, because tanking in, say, Wrath was fairly boring (I enjoyed it nonetheless, but it was boring). On the other though, it made me for the first time choose not to tank (as opposed to being asked to go DPS or backup tank or what have you) so I can't consider it successful due to that reason alone.

    I honestly don't know what it is about it - like I can't point to a specific thing and say "This is the reason". For me it was just the overall concept of Active Mitigation as a whole just didn't, and still doesn't to be honest, feel "right" in a WoW-style MMO, and that's the best way I can explain it. Active Mitigation seems like it would work better in a more dynamic style of MMO (Think like GW2, Neverwinter or ESO) than the standard "Hit button to send to server" type of EQ MMO. Maybe that's my issue with it - I've played quite a few MMOs (not extensively) that have the same WoW style and none of them have active mitigation that I can tell, and I've tanked at least a few times (like in dungeons) in all of them; when I tanked in Rift for example (which at the time was still very much a WoW clone), it was very much "traditional" MMO tanking, without the AM concepts of "When boss does X ability, use AM to mitigate". While similar that's not the same to me as the traditional "use a cooldown" approach, but as I said before it's something that's very hard for me to actually explain.

    Maybe it's a perception thing then? I'm not used to the change and still have to come to grips with it? Who knows? What I do know though is I'm going to give it another shot in Warlords to see if it's grown on me by then and/or if the button reduction helps it feel better.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2014-03-23 at 12:38 PM.
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  10. #70
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    Healing used to be fun until you get into LFR and when you wipe it basically turns into "purge the healers".

    Unfortunately leveling as a healing class always gets nerfed (Im talking about you MW monk) where your dmg abilities cost little mana so when implimented into Raid setting... its op af.

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  11. #71
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    I'm surprised that more people don't switch to healer tbh. Guess it depends on your guild, server and battlegroup, but 30min queue times to DPS in LFR/LFD are not fun. It wouldn't be so bad if you had other stuff to do while you queue but you've really got to enjoy dailies, farming or whatever to be bothered to leave the cities. I've been a monk healer all through MOP; I've enjoyed the interesting play style and the 5mins or less queue times when doing group finder content, and haven't really missed being DPS.

  12. #72
    Well to me timing has allways been important on cd's. Now its jsut more a part of your rotation. I think its a better meassure of skill then what was before.

    Tanking was allways pretty boring

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I'm waiting to see. To be honest, Active Mitigation is what turned me off from tanking (I just don't like how it feels), so we'll see if I like how it feels in WoD.
    I don't mind "Active Mitigation" on Monks (who were build from the ground up with it in mind) or DKs (who kind of always had it going on in a way), but shoe-horning in on Warriors and Paladins was retarded. Victory for homogenization. Bleh. I wasn't a fan of forcing Prot to deal with Holy Power either (then again, I'm not really a big fan of HP in general...).

    As to the OP, I'm not disputing your points, but I'd really like to see some blizzard-side numbers regarding character with tanking specs, number of people queueing tank in LFR/LFD, etc.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by PetersenIV View Post
    I don't mind "Active Mitigation" on Monks (who were build from the ground up with it in mind) or DKs (who kind of always had it going on in a way), but shoe-horning in on Warriors and Paladins was retarded. Victory for homogenization. Bleh. I wasn't a fan of forcing Prot to deal with Holy Power either (then again, I'm not really a big fan of HP in general...).

    As to the OP, I'm not disputing your points, but I'd really like to see some blizzard-side numbers regarding character with tanking specs, number of people queueing tank in LFR/LFD, etc.
    I'm not seing the problem with warrior active migitation. It requries skill now. Is that the problem?

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasticpaddy View Post
    I'm surprised that more people don't switch to healer tbh. Guess it depends on your guild, server and battlegroup, but 30min queue times to DPS in LFR/LFD are not fun. It wouldn't be so bad if you had other stuff to do while you queue but you've really got to enjoy dailies, farming or whatever to be bothered to leave the cities. I've been a monk healer all through MOP; I've enjoyed the interesting play style and the 5mins or less queue times when doing group finder content, and haven't really missed being DPS.
    This post is a bit weird, you're from EU, are you playing on US servers? At prime time (4-11PM server time), DPS only have 5-10 minute queue times for LFR on EU. About 10-15 minute queue times for dungeons.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Deruyter View Post
    - Daily questing is most efficient as dps
    I ran a dps spec for questing back in BC. Wasn't until the prepatch for WOTLK that I could do enough damage to kill mobs quickly as prot.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by LookingGlass View Post
    [U]
    With the gear changes, we should actually see MORE tanks and MORE healers as gearing for other roles will be SIGNIFICANTLY easier.

    DPS players who simply didn't want to or couldn't gear for another role, will simply be able to respec and have the major pieces switch as well
    Doubt it. I am a geared tank, my gf is a geared healer, Four raiders on my team are geared healers / tank os. None of us will tank or heal LFR. It has nothing to do with not wanting to get the gear, we already have it. The problem is a few things

    A)Most of the time my ot is a complete idiot, making me have to do more work
    B)Most of the time half the healers are afk / don't know crap about how to heal so oom at the start then just sorta go derp
    C)Most dps in LFR are so bad that it makes the entire instance take longer. Don't want to waste time because people don't care
    D)Even as the good tank, if its a wipe idiots instantly start blaming you if you happen to be too vocal about trying to teach the ot / anyone the mechanics
    E)Removing a gimp OT / bad healers is nearly impossible. They would rather "work with it" then potentially have to wait for a replacement.

    I have seen tons of dps in LFR have a geared os for tank / healer who refuse to use it because they don't want to deal with the crap storm that is LFR for any decent tank / healer. I never even did LFR for the legendary, even when I was behind. LFR is just down right painful. I am switching to a rogue in WoD, but that is not really taking away a tank / healer from LFR since I never tank or heal it anyway.

  18. #78
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    Tanks and Healers have never been more efficent in killing stuff for dailies, just saying. Tanks won't require vengeance to DPS in WoD either meaning decent dps all the time instead of great when mass pulling.
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  19. #79
    I'm not an LFR hater, I like it a lot, but I really think it has led to the demise of the tank. It's one thing to have a 5 man dungeon where you all pretty much contribute the same amount and there's a fairly equal amount of responsibility on each group member, but when you have a group of 25 and so much is placed on just two of those people... it's just unwanted stress. If you notice, 5 man dungeon queues are a lot quicker than LFR. In theory that shouldn't make sense. You need more tanks overall to form 5 man groups, where as you can attribute 23 others to just two tanks in LFR.

    I'm sure there are other factors, but tanking was only fun imo with random players in a 5 man or less group. When you put pressure on just two people to carry 23 others, it just not fun. You don't mind tanking with 23 people you know in your guild because they know you and give you a break or actually take the time to teach you something, but if you fuck up just 1 thing in LFR as a tank, people already threaten the vote kick.

    People have to realize sometimes it's that tanks first time in that LFR or they don't min max like everyone else. And that's totally acceptable in LFR. That's what it's made for. When LFR fails it's not because of the "noobs" it's because of the "elites" who have that raid on farm in their hardcore guild holding the same expectations for 24 strangers.
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  20. #80
    If the game offers more content that can be done by tanks and healer specs outside of instanced content, then i assume an increase of these specs. Currently, tanks and healers are only needed in dungeons / raids / pvp (with exceptions). Everything else, they are literally useless.

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