Morbid Feedback: Soul Reaper

[Deleted]

-What specs have you had played with the most this expansion?

Both frost spec and unholy during heroic progress. Blood for some flex/soloing with a very low skill level playing that spec.

-In terms of actual effect on play, what has your experience with Soul Reaper been? Has it made a noticeable difference in what talents/glyphs you run, or even the spec that you play?

Before MoP we use to have a passive execute in frost spec. Passive-execute doesn't bring anything fun to our gameplay, and introducing an active execute that we need to manage should be more fun than a passive one. It gave blood and unholy an active execute ability, one they didn't have, and gave these spec a little fun thing to play with.

The 6s delay before it trigger is one of the fun part of the ability, by making us able to "precast" this first SR, trying to get it to tick just when the boss get under 35% hp.

But as it being an execute, I cannot stop myself from comparing it with other class execute abillity. I assume that SR was design this way in order to have a different feeling that other class one, but it has a lot of constraints : the CD itself, the rune cost, the delay effect, and the damage it proccur compare to other class execute with lower constraints (I have warrior execute in mind, mostly) doesn't feel right to me. The most constraint an execute have, the more damage it should bring compare to our others spells, and by the same logic, the least constraint an execute have, the least meaningfull using it should be.

The ressource cost would be fine if it was an RP dump. The rune cost make it hard to anticipate, as the basic UI cannot let us know if the spell is available if the rune you need for it is also on cooldown.

As for a spec per spec basis, the competition between SR and OB for 2H frost doesn't fit the "more fun gameplay while managing the execute phase". It always leave me frustrated whenever I have to choose between OB and SR. The fact that the stronger one isn't intuitive to know (il actually depend on the difference between the weapon you old and the overall ilvl you have) and having it compete with our KM stronger ability ruins the fun part it should bring, at least, for me.

For DW, the ability really lack of power. Failling at using it by smashing HB have never been really punitive, and is known to actually not matter at all in T16 heroic gear, as we mostly can play without it and not having a signicative loss in DPS, and having it actually making LESS damage than a HB when you're at high mastery lever isn't logical at all for an execute ability.

As for unholy and blood, the spell is ok overall. It hit significantly hard enough compare to our other unholy ability, and give us a nice damage boost without competing with our survival as blood.

I actually find it ironical that the spell feels ok for the 2 spec that didn't had any execute aspect pre-MoP and weird for the one that did.

As for a glyph, I actually never used it, but it have some niche, making it situationnal as a glyph should be, and I don't have much to say about it.

[damescool]

specs: played all 3 dps specs, currently main unholy 578 ilevel endgame raider and 530 unholy pvp

for unholy its ability damage wise is great for the small resource cost, it fits perfectly with the amount of death runes we have as unholy and doesn't mess with our rotation/priority
for 2-hand frost, i never use it, the damage is pathetic, the resource cost is too great compared with the possibility of losing an OB crit
for dw-frost i still rarely use it, lots of variables, its cost isn't as terrible as we don't care about OB.

i don't use any diff glyphs or talents for SR, however i do try to focus on off pieces having crit then mastery if i can, i prioritize crit>mastery>haste as unholy, which i believe many do. this is the same for pvp.
it doesn't happen often, but I've noticed unlike other abilities if SR misses or gets dodged/parried it still goes on CD, which is terrible considering its 6 seconds during a critical phase in a boss fight, or fight for your life in pvp. i know this is not a wish list, however, i do wish it would only go on CD if it lands, i also wish that it was instant hit with a CD not an ability that takes 6 sec to hit, frustrating when you hit it 1 sec too early trying to time it, or 1 sec too late as boss dies at 1 sec left on the CD

[Coalbane]

I play mostly as dw frost and I hate this ability. The fact that Howling Blast on a single target can EVER surpass the damage of our "execute" ability is damning enough, requiring players to use an addon to track the abilities' relative strengths if they want to maximize their damage. Less savvy players probably don't even realize there is a breakeven point since it is not obvious from the UI, essentially punishing them for using Soul Reaper exactly as it is apparently designed to be used. Soul Reaper should either be shadowfrost damage or limited to the Unholy spec. The combination of Dancing Rune Weapon with Soul Reaper as Blood gives it some extra burst utility which comes in handy situationally (Shredders on Heroic Blackfuse instantly come to mind), but it's still a dull, unexciting ability. The delay between casting it and when it actually goes off makes it even worse. If Blizzard is going to give dks an execute, then, by god, give it some punch. Make the button light up at 35%, make the damage instant, and make it hit like a freight train. If they don't want to make it too similar to the iconic warrior ability, then make one or all of our abilities deal increased damage when the target reaches a health threshold (like certain other classes/specs) and scrap Soul Reaper altogether. In its current implementation, Soul Reaper is nothing more than a short-lived, weak dot that requires each "tick" to be refreshed by the player, annoying more than gratifying.

[duckeylol]

-What specs have you had played with the most this expansion?
I played mostly unholy this expansion. I did play frost during progression as howling blast spam was too good to pass up and the aoe slow.

-In terms of actual effect on play, what has your experience with Soul Reaper been? Has it made a noticeable difference in what talents/glyphs you run, or even the spec that you play?

Unholy: it fits in perfectly and does a lot of damage for the rune.

2h: I dont bother using it and dont put it on my bar at all for 2h. It leave a oprhan unholy rune which makes things feel a little awkward. plus it does poop damage for being an execute.

DW: i rarely use it, might throw it up when trinkets are up. the first tier it was worth using a lot more and was easy to use back then.

[Revi]

-What specs have you had played with the most this expansion?

Blood, but have played quite a bit of unholy and DW frost outside of progression.

-In terms of actual effect on play, what has your experience with Soul Reaper been? Has it made a noticeable difference in what talents/glyphs you run, or even the spec that you play?

Blood: At high vengeance levels, i really like it. It enables me to spend blood runes on something with a bit of impact, fits nicely into the rotation, and hits hard.
At low vengeance levels it's pretty pathetic tbh, I'll use it but it's not particularly satisfying. WoD vengeance changes should address this though.

Unholy: Love it. Hits hard, fits nicely into the rotation, and even on trash that dies quickly the haste buff is nice.

DW frost: Hate it. Not worth using if HB will hit more than 1 target, and even then damage is pathetic. Would prefer not to have it at all tbh, hope they change it to shadowfrost in WoD.

If it matters, blood ilvl is 571, dps ilvl is 572.

[Deleted]

-What specs have you had played with the most this expansion?

My DK was always been dual wield frost since its creation. Been mostly in normal mode alt runs during T14 and T15, and did more than half of the T16 hc modes with it. Like the gameplay style of DW.

-In terms of actual effect on play, what has your experience with Soul Reaper been? Has it made a noticeable difference in what talents/glyphs you run, or even the spec that you play?

Overall - mixed feelings. When im focused on my rotation and the decision for my prios i make during the fight i have always managed to fit SR on cooldown. I like it when i can do that and i see how my numbers start ramping up during the execute phase. I also like the numbers it makes and it doesn't break my rotation.
But if i, by some chance, screw up my rotation by taking wrong decision about my prio list then trying to use SR make the gameplay suffer bad.
I also like the "buff" they made about the haste bonus if the target dies before it deals damage. It creates an interesting gameplay if you can spend spend the rune to get the buff.
On the other hand it doesn't feel rewarding at all for a execute mechanic and even at a time its punishing. As i said above - mixed feelings

[DingDongKing]

When I was Dual Wield Frost the ability was pretty pointless but for Unholy it's a perfect sub out for Scourge Strike in the execute phase. I'd actually LOVE to see a proc or set bonus where it becomes usable at any health but with an internal cooldown that prevents spammage of it. Would add some extra oomph to Unholy, which is a spec I fear for with the loss of snapshotting in 6.0. Even my Execution Sentence is currently weeping for 6.0.

[Ikrekot]

What specs have you had played with the most this expansion?

I play as Blood Death Knight.

In terms of actual effect on play, what has your experience with Soul Reaper been? Has it made a noticeable difference in what talents/glyphs you run, or even the spec that you play?

Death Knights always needed some execute. It's nice rotation uptade from HS and BB only. With Soul Reaper you need to watch adds health to get haste. Some people don't might like it but I like it. Soul Reaper is always ~10% of my overall damage so it's also nice boost to damage. Soul Reaper should get some improvements by reduce time to deal additional damage.

Soul Reaper didn't make any diffrence in my talents/glyphs or reforge settings.

Sorry for my bad english .

[Magdalena]

Great to see the amount of discussion we've had on this topic. Here are some of my observations.

Official Forums: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/12205860606

MMO-Champion thread: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ck-Soul-Reaper

-Several posters felt Soul Reaper has several UI shortcomings in terms of notifying a player when to use it.

One poster wrote:

I also dislike the lack of ui element to inform you that the ability is optimal to use (and this is because it can be used at any health percentage). I had to download an addon just to be able to see health percentages to effectively use it.

Another said:

On this subject, I don't like the fact that Soul Reaper doesn't light up when my target is under 35%. I know I know. "Nothing used to light up", I played in Vanilla. I'm aware. But fact of the matter is, I'm USED to things lighting up now. Blizzard has turned it from a helpful hint into a crutch. Often times? I forget to hit Soul Reaper until my target is around 20%. Sometimes I forget period.

A third stated:

Remembering to use Soul Reaper sub 35%...Very frustrating to not notice during an important fight that boss was 35% or below HP and I hadn't started using Soul Reaper. Argument could be made this is important for skill-differential, but for us lesser mortals (myself included) it just led to mandatory use of an addon to watch boss HP for us. Feels kinda weenie to have to have an addon just for this one ability.

-A number of posters have said that they dislike the opportunity costs associated with Soul Reaper and 2h Frost.

For instance, Euliat stated:

Going on my personal feelings for an execute, I feel that an execute should be a direct replacement for your primary strike during the execute phase. That is, if your primary strike is HB, your execute should have the identical rotational impact (i.e., resource cost) as HB so that weaving in your execute does not disturb your rotation (also, the execute should at least proc any effect that your primary ability would proc). This is the case for every spec except 2H Frost, whose primary strike is a double-rune ability, whereas the execute is a single-rune ability.

Thus, there exists friction when using SR for 2H Frost. By pressing SR, you’re locking yourself out of Obliterate, which is nothing less than frustrating, particularly around a KM proc.

Someone else wrote:

for 2h Frost I've run fights with using it and fights without, and not using it equates to similar dps and (imo) a smoother play style.

-Both 2h and DW Frost DKs have expressed frustration about number tuning- even when Soul Reaper is “worth using”, it is barely so.

For instance:

...that very feeling of insignificance has been a detriment for some of my fellow DKs, who have questioned why they should use an ability that doesn't really feel all that powerful. It is just something you have to throw up when you get into range, and then you kind of just watch the CD to know when it should go off and you can apply it again.

-Some players disliked the delayed damage aspect of Soul Reaper.

Major downside is that it's a 5 second timer. I don't mind the fact I have to wait and time it properly, but when I hit an ability I want the damage there and then... not 5 globals later making it feel "meh". It feels boring and lackluster to use, especially considering two targets as Frost a HB will do more damage. The haste procc, whilst good on paper... Again feels boring. It's also useless for questing or dungeons most of the time.

-Others also stated that they didn’t feel a cooldown worked well with an ability that already costs runes:

Additionally, I’ve always felt that the 6s CD and the rune cost don’t really mesh too well. Rune costs themselves introduce a pseudo-CD, so tacking a hard CD on top of that is just overkill (I understand the reason but still disagree). RP is particularly suitable to hard cooldowns.

-PvP was again something I paid close attention to.

Tsalera writes:

This single ability has added more enjoyment to the game for me than any other ability, it captures all the joy of casino strike (double crit scourge strike) in a way that doesn't rely so heavly on RNG, and actually allows for some counterplay. And it simultaniously fed upon my appreciation for "combo kill" mechanics, and my love of seeing purple swirly souls around me with the haste buff.
The only part I dislike is RNG parry/dodge on other melee classes costing us the cooldown, when I end up with 3 soul reaper parry/dodges in a row on a target that continually dipped below 50k, I'm rather annoyed, At least when it is dispelled I costed someone a resource(dispell cd) and quite likely a little bit of their focus.

Another posters states:

I think it is more like a "must use" ability, considering we can "predict" the health reduction of the target, a good sinergy with Unholy's pressure + necrotics.
What I actually dislike on it is that it can be dispelled and health pools in MoP go from 10% do 100% in like 3 seconds, so landing a SR is hard. Very hard i'd say, depending on the spec you are trying to apply it.

A Frost PvPer says:

My view is that it's too unpredictable, sometimes it end the tick and they are under 35% health but they take no damage. i don't know if it's from defensive cooldown or a priest bubble or what but sometimes I swear it feels like it just glitches out.

Generally, the risk is too high for the reward.

Another PvP poster dislikes Soul Reaper:

In pvp HP pools either get healed too fast or the target dies before detonation. The "execute" also being dispellable doesn't encourage usage in pvp over other skills (such as necrotics with Death Runes).
I'd rather have an immediate hard hitting button for a "finish him" ability, no delay.

-In terms of visceral “feel”, many posters stated that they felt Soul Reaper lacked excitement.

Mione writes:

The button doesn't feel fun to press, despite the damage not being terrible. The reasons, to me:
- The animation is the same as any other strike (compare our animations to Templar's Verdict or Raging Blow..)
- The sound effect isn't particularly appealing and doesn't feel like hitting someone with a sword, nor does it feel DK-ish
- There is no visual effect while the effect is up (unlike most dots)
- The visual effect when detonating is non-existent
- The sound effect when detonating is just the regular "ShadowSpellHit" from Shadow Bolt or any other shadow spell. Not particularly appealing for an execute.
- The icon doesn't depict Soul Reaper at all. The original Lich King icon was much better and I have no idea why it was modified to this new one.

Overall, my complaint isn't that SR is a bad spell or anything, it's that it feels immensely more satisfying to smack things with our other DK spells and I feel happier getting a neat 1million obliterate crit than a 1 million SR crit. Does it make sense logically? no. But that's how it is for me at least.

Another poster states:

The meta game of applying SR pre 35% was probably the only real challenge of using an otherwise hard hitting but bland button. The delayed detonation and CD of SR makes it hard to enjoy it when compared to other Executes.

There were a number of other topics, such as the question of whether Executes should have costs, how the button felt for Unholy/Blood DKs (much more positive responses than Frost), and whether Soul Reaper should be dispellable at all.
Good work so far, keep it coming.

[valliant13]

What specs have you had played with the most this expansion?

In a raiding role I have played 2H frost through tier 14, unholy through tier 15, and dw frost with some unholy in T16. Play blood mostly to solo stuff with occasional flex/lfr runs so nothing serious but I will give my opinion on SR for all specs based on what I do.

In terms of actual effect on play, what has your experience with Soul Reaper been? Has it made a noticeable difference in what talents/glyphs you run, or even the spec that you play?

Starting with unholy I will have to say that the spell is quite honestly awesome and works with how the "rotation" goes. We simply replace a scourge strike with a Soul Reaper. The one rune cost is great and works well regardless of the rune regen talent you choose. The only flaw for unholy I see is it doesn't feel like a proper execute. Not due to damage numbers, but simply because it's a set it then never see it until you're going through skada, recount, wol, or wcl. The delay is a cool way to make our execute feel different done poorly. Outside of the long delay I dont know if there's anything else I can really complain about for unholy. Now my comments on 2H Frost.

For 2H frost I stopped using the ability all together in T14. It ruined the rotation because 2H's Main strike costs two runes, with SR costing one rune we dipped into resources for OB. It caused the feel of the spec to not feel even remotely as fluent as unholy or even DW frost. The damage usually was never as much as a OB crit either. Therefor making SR feel close to useless.

As for DW, It is fluent in the rotation but it doesn't hit very hard at all. When there are break points of needing an addon on when to use HB vs SR there's something wrong. An execute should feel like your strongest strike/ability simple because it's only usable while the boss is under a certain percentage of health. While it keeps the dw rotation fluent, it does not give it the umph of an execute ability. Quite simply SR needs to benefit all specs in terms of damage.

As for blood, I feel it doesn't break up the gameplay, however without vengeance SR isn't worth a damn imo. I dont notice a difference between HS and SR when I don't have vengeance. However as I get vengeance SR becomes a much nicer ability to use as blood instead of heart strike. However that's really all I have for an opinion with blood. It feels fine, but you need vengeance for it to be a good replacement(but this is based off barely tanking anything relevent).

[Sinzaram]

So time for me to add my 2 copper to this thread.
I spose I've held off for this long as I have too many thoughts. :P

-What specs have you had played with the most this expansion?

I think the spec I've played the most has surprisingly been Unholy this expansion.
I was mostly DWFrost in Tier 14, when Unholy still had its mechanical shortcomings, but I went Unholy in tier 15, and came back to the game Tier 16 post hotfixes where Unholy reigns supreme.

-In terms of actual effect on play, what has your experience with Soul Reaper been? Has it made a noticeable difference in what talents/glyphs you run, or even the spec that you play?

I was initial excited to have a execute when the ability was first posted about during the Beta, and even more excited once the Spec Specific Rune change went in.
I was excited to get the ability when i hit 87 while leveling. But was quickly disappointed by how useless it was while leveling as DWFrost. Until I started to Soul Reap questing mobs at 100% hp (so would explode on time), I would always use it at low HP and then take masses of damage while waiting for it to kill the mob. I quickly phased it out and just used straight damage spells to finish off questing mobs, since everything else hit instantly with no ramp up.

I also want to add my dislike of how originally the "mob died too soon" haste effect was 10 seconds long, and it was quickly reduced to 4 seconds. I think the 10 second duration made the haste effect feel more worthwhile, but generally I feel the consolation prize haste effect is too passive, and this is combined with the issue that more haste doesn't allow more soul reapers makes it feel really bad when you lose a Reaper's damage.

I think the fact that Unholy's Soul Reaper is always much much stronger than Frost's, has been a constant reason for me to play the spec over Frost. Soul Reaper always feels like a significant button to press as Unholy, but feels like a forced maintenance effect for Frost. As Frost you just feel like you have to keep Soul Reaping to get that extra 1% bonus. But as Unholy its always a massive blast of damage on every tick.
On one hand I kinda like how this ability has differentiated the specs, with Frost being all heavy damage over the whole duration of a boss fight and Unholy having more passive damage and getting bursty towards the end of a fight.
If they just made the ability Shadowfrost tomorrow I would lose one big reason to play Unholy.
I think this feeling is mostly because they forced this Unholy/Frost Soul Reaper split on us from the start of the ability and it would be weird if they changed it now, as much as I understand the need for Soul Reaper to be a button worth pressing as Frost.

I want to touch on the Cooldown issue.
I dislike the fact that Soul Reaper is effectively a DoT with a single tick, on a fixed cooldown and zero flexibility on a class that has a lot of ability to pool resources and choose when to use abilities without wasting resources. Whereas Soul Reaper has to be used on a fixed schedule every 6 seconds without fail, or you're effectively losing the potential damage, like the DK runes of wrath.
To put on my armchair designer hat; I would quite like Soul Reaper to become a proper DoT, where if you used it additional times, it would add on additional duration and additional ticks if you use the ability more than once. This would also allow you to use it where you have Runes and not have to hold back runes for the cooldown and you would have to balance using runes to keep the Reaper dot ticking every 5 seconds and using runes on other strikes.

Talents and Glyphswise.
As I mentioned in the Level 75 thread, I've used Blood Tap macroed the whole expansion, I think this has had a minor improvement on my Soul Reaper usage in Tier 14 when I played DWFrost, as I could use Unholy runes for Soul Reaper. But I never chose BT purely for that reason.
Regarding the Glyph of Swift Death I tried it out briefly when I came back to the game recently for tier 16 and it kind of shares the same issue as i wrote above. The consolation prize of a 4 second haste bonus and movement speed buff, doesn't feel like a worthwhile part of the ability and as such I almost never bother Soul Reaping when its clear that mob will die before the damage happens.

I think this is all the thoughts I have on this little ability finally.

[Taninsam]

I play mostly as dw frost and I hate this ability. The fact that Howling Blast on a single target can EVER surpass the damage of our "execute" ability is damning enough, requiring players to use an addon to track the abilities' relative strengths if they want to maximize their damage. Less savvy players probably don't even realize there is a breakeven point since it is not obvious from the UI, essentially punishing them for using Soul Reaper exactly as it is apparently designed to be used. Soul Reaper should either be shadowfrost damage or limited to the Unholy spec. The combination of Dancing Rune Weapon with Soul Reaper as Blood gives it some extra burst utility which comes in handy situationally (Shredders on Heroic Blackfuse instantly come to mind), but it's still a dull, unexciting ability. The delay between casting it and when it actually goes off makes it even worse. If Blizzard is going to give dks an execute, then, by god, give it some punch. Make the button light up at 35%, make the damage instant, and make it hit like a freight train. If they don't want to make it too similar to the iconic warrior ability, then make one or all of our abilities deal increased damage when the target reaches a health threshold (like certain other classes/specs) and scrap Soul Reaper altogether. In its current implementation, Soul Reaper is nothing more than a short-lived, weak dot that requires each "tick" to be refreshed by the player, annoying more than gratifying.

This is so accurate I barely have anything to add. If they don't wish for DKs to have a hard-hitting execute, they should just merge Soul Reaper into Obliterate to make it worth the cost and give DW some of the depth it used to have.

[lakhesis]

Specs I've played: Primarily DW frost, tho due to weapon availability I was forced into 2H Frost for the first tier. I played a little blood when absolutely necessary, but badly & not enough for it to influence my opinion of SR beyond "oh neat, something to spend blood on that's not heartstrike"

Content: PVE only. I play it as my most-competitive alt (e.g. 564 ilvl with nearly normal mode BiS, Gold CMs + title runs, but only lfr/flex/normal raiding)

Likes:
- Because it's a very mediocre gain, it doesn't matter much if I drop it out in a chaotic situation
- I thought the T15 4pc where KM boosted Soul Reaper was a fun additional quirk
- Minor additional boost for better play is a good approach imo
- Being able to throw it up before being forced off target, or duck in & refresh it
- Being able to set it up preemptively

Dislikes:
- Having it be usable but do nothing above execute range (e.g. if something gets healed, or you're a little too preemptive)
- When it didn't give a boost if a mob died with it on it was too punishing, I'm glad they changed that
- The disconnect between casting it & having it go off is a kinda unsatisfying on an ability-feedback level
- Not being able to use it on anything with less than a several million health (e.g. CMs generally make you use more abilities... but SR could still be easily excluded)
- As DW frost I didn't like it competing with my "good ability" (howling blast) - wish it used an unholy rune
- As 2H frost I didn't like it competing with obliterate, it just stuffed your rotation around


Comments:
- Howling Blast = range, aoe, solid damage, instant feedback ... SR = no range, no aoe, mildly better damage, delayed feedback ... i prefer HB, i just use SR
- Some of what I like about it is also part of what I dislike about it (e.g. being able to set it up prior to being forced out of melee by fight mechanics... but then, why would you? you can howling blast from 30 yards away anyway)
- It had no effect on glyphing/talenting for me, I (nearly) never deliberately aimed to trigger the haste effect anyway & I was always picking level 75 talents based on where I thought I could game the most death runes anyway (so what I actually intended to use those death runes on was semi-irrelevant)
- As Blood I never liked heart strike that much anyway. Moar SR!

[Deleted]

I've played all the specs in different periods of the tier.

Blood: In terms of dmg and impact on rotation it's working really well, however I still find it a bit wierd to be playing a tank spec and using abilities that is solely based on increasing dmg, and no impact on survival I would really love to see some added effect to this ability that was aimed towards survival. Maybe alter it so it was an ability that became useable whenever you dropped below 35% rather than the target, and give it some effect like a hot or dmg reduction effect.

Unholy: The ability is just perfect for this spec, nice synergy with rotation and it's dmg is awesome

2h frost: The dmg the abilty does in regards to runecost is fine, bit low considering it's and execute, however I find it to have a negative impact on the smoothness of the rotation. I know it's a dps increase to use it, but I still get a feeling of "ugh, do I have to?" since it just makes the rotation feels clunky. Would love to see some sort of change, since this spec is based to heavily on obliterate. Would really like to see some a change, both to it's dmg but mostly so you actually feel like it's a fun addition to the rotation.

dw frost: In terms of dmg it's the same as 2h, it's fine but I don't find it powerfull enough considering it's and execute ability. It's impact on the rotation is much smoother than for 2h, since this spec relies much less on the usage of unholy runes.

overall: I would really like to see some sort of distinction between specs for this ability, to me this ability feels like an unholy ability. For both frost specs I would love to see it getting better synergy with the rotation and an increase to it's dmg, or removed, in it's current state it just feels too clunky.