Kver's Guide to Advanced 5.4 Fire

[Deleted]

Introduction
The purpose of this guide is twofold, on one hand it attempts to elaborate and expand on fire mages, a spec most players incorrectly consider to be trivial and simple. On the other hand it proposes some interesting theories. The fire mage community has in due time declined in numbers, and the end result is an afflictive absence of discussion. A popular opinion is that there really are no possible alternative ways of playing fire mage, an opinion I vehemently oppose.

When can I safely go fire?
Fire starts to become solid when you have the 4 set and 15k crit. Having high crit is a requirement to smooth out the RNG. If you have a lot of haste/mastery you’re better off going frost. The reality is that Fire is currently incredibly crit dependent. If you have low amounts of crit you will have fights where even with perfect play you will simply have horrible performance.

Builds

Standard build
Hit to cap > Crit > Haste > Mastery
This is the conventional build. It focuses on as much instant pyro damage as possible. By capitalising on haste you reduce the global cooldown and increase your cast speed, increasing the DPET of your pyroblasts by a lot and making it easier to keep up the 2 piece by generating more pyroblasts in a smaller time frame.
This build rocks on single target and spread out multi target, and is slightly better at movement due to the ability to finish casts and cast faster evocations, but loses out on AoE and stacked cleave damage.
This is the build I would advise to most players because it is simply unfeasible to go for that much haste at lower gear levels.

The Haste Cap Build
Hit to cap > Crit > Haste to 14100 > Mastery > Haste
This build assumes that by keeping up the 2 piece bonus, combined with meta gem and bloodlust, you can invest some of your haste in mastery instead. At 14.1k haste having 5 stacks of the 2 piece buff gives you 50% haste. Combustion’s increased damage and the increased ignite values of spells are stronger than the increase haste gives past 50%, due to instant casts no longer scaling with haste beyond that point. In addition, haste increases mastery’s relative potency.

2 * 1 = 2
A 2.2 * 1 = 2.2
B 2 * 1.2 = 2.4
Assume that the first variable is haste and the second value is mastery. In both scenarios A and B an absolute value of ‘0.2’ has been added, however due to the relative value of the ‘0.2’ compared to the original value, the increase is largest in B.
I would personally advise this build to people with very high gear levels, who can gain a sizeable amount of mastery from this.


Mastery build
Hit to cap > Crit > Mastery > Haste
This build focuses on two things:
- Higher ignite value boosts individual spells’ DPET
- Higher ignite value boosts combustion damage
Single target damage is a lot lower than haste, but this build dominates on AoE fights such as TFP and Spoils. It has more issues with mobility than the haste build; invocation casts are slow and you will need to interrupt casts more often to avoid damage. Keeping up the 2 piece becomes difficult as well. Only use this build if you know what you are doing.

Something to help you choose and think

What do the two other secondary stats do?
Haste does a multitude of things: it increases your cast speed, the frequency at which DoTs do damage(“ticks”), it reduces the global cooldown and it increases your mana regeneration(Irrelevant for Fire).
The strength of haste lies in the combination of casting speed and the global cooldown reduction: together these two increase the rate at which you can pump out pyroblasts, making it easier to keep up the 2-piece set bonus, which in turn gives you more haste. Once you hit 50% haste(in any situation) your global cooldown is capped at 1.0 second, reducing the marginal increase of haste.

While it is tempting to look at simple DPET calculations to justify stacking haste, there is more to Pyroblast’s haste scaling. These calculations generally assume that the DoT runs its full course, which is almost never the case. For example: you cast a pyroblast, which leaves an 18 second DoT. 2 seconds later you cast another pyroblast, overwriting that DoT with another 18 second DoT. Ultimately, you only gain 1 extra tick from this, and you have effectively “wasted” 16 seconds of the DoT. This does not matter for your DPS, because you will never delay a pyroblast cast for the DoT, but it matters tremendously for defining the efficiency of haste, because it means that haste’s value is diminished the more often you cast a pyroblast.

Mastery is simply a flat out damage increase in the form of a 4 second DoT(Ignite) which scales linearly. The ignite can be spread to other targets with inferno blast, making mastery very strong on cleave. Because combustion is based on ignite damage, this automatically makes mastery stronger for combustion as well.


Advanced stuff
Warning: some of these should only be used if you know why you’d use them. I invite people to think about what I describe here and come up with a conclusion of their own.

5 stack camping - It is incredibly important to maintain the stacks of the 2 piece buff. It is called Potent Flames and gives 750 haste per stack up to a maximum of 5 stacks. I highly advise you to track this buff; you will want to keep it up especially on higher stacks. This means that you will sometimes cast a pyroblast first, and then evocation or living bomb directly afterwards. Do NOT go out of your way; don’t delay evocation or bombs, and never cast scorch as a primary nuke to keep it up. Keep in mind that the pyromaniac buff lasts 3 seconds longer than the mage bomb.

Pyro gambling - If your 2 piece is on 5 stacks and almost running out, you can opt to “gamble” for a pyro proc by using an inferno blast proactively to effectively “win” a global. The downside is that if the fireball doesn’t crit you lose DPS and the 5 stacks. However, the presence of a large intellect proc reduces the risk. You’ll need to decide for yourself when you think this is worth it.

Advanced bonus GCD pull:
The idea is that by using a speed boost to move towards the boss you can reduce the travel times of pyroblast to make 5 pyroblasts hit within 4 seconds. You will need a large speed boost to practically end up inside the boss, and you will have to use combustion right away. You can use Alter Time to teleport you around as well: Alter Time halfway towards the boss, run away from the boss when you cast pyroblast, when Alter Time resets you will be closer to the boss, now keep running towards the boss while shooting out pyroblasts. This is not a guaranteed victory, but if it works you can theoretically throw massive combustions.
Start decently far away -> pyro pyro pyro -> AT -> engineering boots -> pyro pyro ->combustion right away.
Pyroblast
Pyroblast
Pyroblast
[Pyroblast]
Alter Time
[speed boost]
Pyroblast
Pyroblast
Combustion

I am sure that there are many other ways of doing this, and it is quite difficult to understand at first. Think of it like this. If one spell has a 2 second travel time, and the 2nd spell has a 1 second travel time, they'll hit at the same time, because while spell 1 is flying you cast spell 2, and if spell 2 has a 1 second cast time, they both end up having 1 second remaining travel time.

Advanced mage armor pull
Theory: the final average 450k damage from a PoM pyro proc is smaller than the large % increase to ignite and combustion. You will have a very high crit chance due to trinkets, and 2 guaranteed crits due to the 4 piece buff. Before the pull, make sure you have mage armour on already. Do a pull as you normally would by getting buffs, entering AT, spamming pyroblast, then reset AT, cast pyro, pyro, PoM Molten Armor, combustion, continue with the normal rotation.
Make sure that you keep running towards the boss, the closer you are the easier it gets.

Use the following macro for combustion, this is an alternative, easier one, which comes at the cost of 1 PoM pyro:

/castsequence reset=5 presence of mind, molten armor, combustion

You’ll need to press it three times in order to cast all of them, an alternative approach is to just mash it. With this macro you simply walk towards the boss, casting all your pyroblasts and pressing that macro once you are done.

Math:
Mage armor = 3000/400 = 7.5% base mastery (even more with pboi, rating*1.09 for example). Let's assume a PBoI is present and take 8% mastery.

(Mastery % + MA%) / mastery % -1 = combustion damage increase. Example: ((20+8)/20 - 1) = 40%
Average pom pyro damage = pom pyro damage * (crit chance / 100). Example: 650 * (80/100) = 520

To be worth it in this example, combustion needs to do at least 520k more damage to make up for the loss of the PoM pyro spent on Molten Armor.

520k / Amount of combustion ticks. Example: 520k / 47 = 11k per tick, so divide by 1/2/3/4/5 for 1/2/3/4/5 targets. The more targets, the stronger Mage Armor gets.

So in total you need a 11k*5 = 55k higher ignite. In this example we assumed 800k damage per pyroblast(Which is very high, BiS levels), you would get a 2.((800k*3+520k)/4)*0.2 = 328.5k ignite. The mage armor increase here would give 328.5*0.4=131.4k extra ignite.

This does not account for the loss of the crit from molten armor during your pyroblasts, but with the crit recommended in this guide and trinkets and 4 set up(As you are supposed to) this is negligible for RNG.


Combustion delay
In a fight that lasts longer than 240 seconds it is a large DPS gain to delay your combustions until a trinket proc. This is due to the large bonus to pyroblast damage, the increased crit chance on pyroblast, and the increased crit chance on combustion. You are not using less combustions than you would if you used them on cooldown, but you make both your combustions and pyroblast torrents significantly stronger. If a fight lasts shorter than 240 seconds, cast combustion on cooldown, otherwise you will "waste" a combustion by losing out on one.

Credit for the next quote goes to Dutchmagoz

Scenario 1: Use everything on cooldown.

90 CMB 1
115 PBOI

180 AT
180 CMB 2

230 PBOI

270 CMB 3

345 PBOI
360 AT --- Should line up 99% of the time.
360 CMB 4

450 CMB 5 --- This is the only time scenario 1 gets more combustions off.


Scenario 2: postpone combustion for each PBOI

115 CMB 1
115 PBOI

230 CMB 2
230 PBOI
230 AT

345 CMB 3
345 PBOI

460 CMB 4
460 PBOI
460 AT


Conclusion: Scenario 2 automatically wins in all timeframes except > 390 seconds < 500 seconds. In the timeframe of 400-500 seconds, the extra combustion from scenario 1 needs to outdamage the bonus damage of 3 PBOI boosted combustions. We also get a much stronger second AT with scenario 2.

Scorch build

This is a theory I came up with after Akraen made a joke about rotations. Varieties of this have been tried a lot in the past(Famous Mage Armour Scorch Thok parse) but as with many things Fire, it seems that nobody has delved into it. You can consider this a continuation of my haste-cap build, so if any of the details down below don't make sense to you, read the guide first.

Do note that I am not a brilliant mathemagician or somebody who writes everything down in nice and tidy spreadsheet. If you want shiny graphs, I'm afraid I'll have to disappoint you for now.

I'm looking for people to test out my new theory. Use the following stat distribution as given in my haste capped build: Crit > Haste to 14100 > Mastery > Haste, and use Molten Armor. Change the following thing in your rotation:
Always use Scorch unless the Meta Gem and/or Bloodlust are up, then switch to Fireball.

Using Scorch over Fireball is an 18% DPET loss, which needs to be made up for by more DoT ticks, higher 2 piece uptime(Especially on 5 stacks) and more Pyroblasts. This is only a few pyroblasts(No more than 10 on a 4.5 minute fight), not counting the increased amount of casts and ticks due to the 5 stacks of 2pc.

Some early testing indicates that it becomes very easy to keep the 2 piece up for a very long period of time, and that the increased number of pyroblasts is higher than the 10/4.5 minutes you need, but due to the difficulty in modeling Fire this has to be proven by actual in-game testing.

I would like to urge anybody who is interested in this to send me logs of Malkorok parses(Difficulty doesn't matter) where they use this rotation.

This is just a theory that I would like to propose and discuss, do not take it for a 100% guaranteed DPS increase in situation [x].


Closing remarks
Special thanks to Dutchmagoz for surviving the torrent of ideas I threw at him and coming up with some interesting suggestions of his own. Thanks to Akraen for being both supportive and offensive towards Fire, and thanks to some random guy on MMO who convinced me to post this there.

Please note that this guide will be altered constantly. If there is anything you think is poorly worded or incorrect then please respond constructively and back it up with factual information. Do not claim that B is wrong and A is correct because you “feel” it is or because you read it somewhere.


If you have any questions, feel free to pass by on #AlteredTime on irc.quakenet.org

[Demindar]

I really wouldnt call this an Advanced guide, since your missing A LOT of things to make it advanced. Its more of a brief guide, which is still good! Thanks for the post

I might try collecting some fire gear

[Frost1129]

I really wouldnt call this an Advanced guide, since your missing A LOT of things to make it advanced.

Care to elaborate?

[Magemaer]

Care to elaborate?

Math

10chars

[Shangalar]

Thanks for posting this! I don't even like or play fire, but I found it very informative and enjoyable to read.

[Deleted]

I'm looking for people to test out my new theory. Use the following stat distribution as given in my haste capped build: Crit > Haste to 14100 > Mastery > Haste, and use Molten Armor. Change the following thing in your rotation:
Always use Scorch unless the Meta Gem and/or Bloodlust are up, then switch to Fireball.

I would like to urge anybody who is interested in this to send me logs of Malkorok parses(Difficulty doesn't matter) where they use this rotation.

I'd be willing to spare an hour or so and try this out for you. I can't log though, but if you PM your battletag, we can do Malk LFR or something tomorrow (Monday).

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...tsegi/advanced - This is my armoury page, so you can have a look and let me know before we start if you want anything changed

[Frost1129]

I'd be willing to spare an hour or so and try this out for you. I can't log though, but if you PM your battletag, we can do Malk LFR or something tomorrow (Monday).

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...tsegi/advanced - This is my armoury page, so you can have a look and let me know before we start if you want anything changed

Anyone can log. Just do /combatlog before you start LFR/Flex/normal/Heroic and you can upload it WCL.

[Deleted]

Anyone can log. Just do /combatlog before you start LFR/Flex/normal/Heroic and you can upload it WCL.

Something something Java. Been meaning to sort it out...

Basically, I'm lazy!

[Deleted]

I really wouldnt call this an Advanced guide, since your missing A LOT of things to make it advanced. Its more of a brief guide, which is still good! Thanks for the post

I might try collecting some fire gear

I've heard this a lot. I decides to keep the more inane stuff(glyph choices for example) and math out partially because it confuses people because I want people to use math to prove me wrong.

Either way if you think anything big is missing then tell me, I'm sure I can fit it in.

Edit: if it helps I can have it changed to 'Guide to Advanced Fire' though?

[Deleted]

Math

10chars

We can post the maths if you like, what specifically are you interested in? It was left out on purpose in the guide itself, because 90% of people would skip/not understand it.

[Shangalar]

I've heard this a lot. I decides to keep the more inane stuff(glyph choices for example) and math out partially because it confuses people because I want people to use math to prove me wrong.

Either way if you think anything big is missing then tell me, I'm sure I can fit it in.

Edit: if it helps I can have it changed to 'Guide to Advanced Fire' though?

Done. I think it's really useful to read for everyone who plays fire, but some of the things after experimenting will still yield weaker results than others. People tend to choose the numerically best option available.

There's always the discussion whether Fire mages should reforge to mastery in aoe/cleave encounters, but even then the question because if it's at all necessary for the raid. People tend to mix numbers with usefulness a lot. Changing my spec and playstyle for my own personal dps when it is not needed for my raid is a waste of time for me.

[Deleted]

Done. I think it's really useful to read for everyone who plays fire, but some of the things after experimenting will still yield weaker results than others. People tend to choose the numerically best option available.

There's always the discussion whether Fire mages should reforge to mastery in aoe/cleave encounters, but even then the question because if it's at all necessary for the raid. People tend to mix numbers with usefulness a lot. Changing my spec and playstyle for my own personal dps when it is not needed for my raid is a waste of time for me.

There is no numerically best option though. Some of the stuff in the guide is numerically best, but not practical. Others are simply a gain. Some theories are just that; theories. That does not mean that people should not think about it or discuss it. If somebody reads my scorch theory, thinks about it, and then writes a reply here telling me exactly why it does not work, maybe even including some math, then he just became a better fire mage because he became able to consciously think about the way in which he plays.

I never intended to write a new bible for fire. What I wanted to do was simply to show people that you can actually discuss it, theorise it, and still provide people with (apparently) new information, and I believe that I have succeeded in that regard. What bothers me especially is that some of the things in this guide(5 pyro pull) are not necessarily new, but that some people just refused(for one reason or another) to share them.

When I hear Akraen complaining about the atmosphere on some forums, or Celestalon tweeting that the mage community is dead, I think back to the 5 pyro pull, and I shrug and nod.

[Shangalar]

Heh, by all means discuss. Fire discussions here around here all practically non-existant because of its apparent simplicity. However, the most results and theories we have were presented by someone at some point and then tested by the community. This deep into a patch, not many new things are left to discover so this is a welcome change.

[Lionheart-rad]

There is no numerically best option though. Some of the stuff in the guide is numerically best, but not practical. Others are simply a gain. Some theories are just that; theories. That does not mean that people should not think about it or discuss it. If somebody reads my scorch theory, thinks about it, and then writes a reply here telling me exactly why it does not work, maybe even including some math, then he just became a better fire mage because he became able to consciously think about the way in which he plays.

I never intended to write a new bible for fire. What I wanted to do was simply to show people that you can actually discuss it, theorise it, and still provide people with (apparently) new information, and I believe that I have succeeded in that regard. What bothers me especially is that some of the things in this guide(5 pyro pull) are not necessarily new, but that some people just refused(for one reason or another) to share them.

When I hear Akraen complaining about the atmosphere on some forums, or Celestalon tweeting that the mage community is dead, I think back to the 5 pyro pull, and I shrug and nod.

I want to thank you and for trying to do something for the mage comunity. Personally, I check this forum all the time and it is indeed slow, or almost dead. I'm not an experienced mage still, but I hope I can contribute more in the future. I actually came here completely clueless and I've learned so much, so, I want you guys to know that even though things look slow here, there are people like me that learned a lot from you.

And again, thanks a lot guys.

[Akraen]

I'm being thanked for hating fire. What is this new world and how did I get here?

[Shangalar]

I'm being thanked for hating fire. What is this new world and how did I get here?

Also a welcome change from you being insulted for hating everyone

[Akraen]

Also a welcome change from you being insulted for hating everyone

I'd really argue that mage IRC has done more for this community than the forum itself ever has. It's really brought a large group of people together and allow us to work through what would otherwise be 'argumental' posts in quick-speed so that we don't argue, we collaborate. Kver had some great thoughts, I knew very little about fire, but had some general knowledge or places to look. Others helped a lot too, but this was all Kver

I encourage more people to come to IRC with open minds and thoughts to type.

[Frost1129]

You should totally post all the math. That's the best part! (and it's how people will actually be able to go through and see if you made any mistakes :P)

[Roggendorf]

This is exactly the sort of thing the mage community has been missing. Many thanks to Dutchmagoz and Kver. Please do add in the background math, at least in footnotes. As for those who say "this is old" or "it's late in the patch" - that is exactly the problem. As Kver and Celestalon have suggested, the Mage community has suffered from mages only communicating substantively with guildies or close friends, while using hand waving or "l2p" dismissiveness with others.

[Deleted]

Great guide!
I dissagree with some things but yet again I am a total noob
What I would add though is a gearing section, a gemming section and maybe some AMR values.
Nice writeup