Tinker Discussion Thread

[Teriz]

A herbalist can never Solo Freya. its balancing professions.

Fortunately we have Druids and Shaman utilizing the nature theme so that isn't a problem.

Immerseus is a water boss - we don't have a class that corresponds to him.

Shaman and Mages.

Elegon is a celestial boss - we don't have a class that corresponds to that.

Druids (balance).

There are many bosses that do not have anything related to class or professions that are related to them. That does not need it is needed.

Every major archetypal theme in WoW has a corresponding class except technology.

If class gearing requirements were a real issue they would have been changed a very long time ago.

If you hadn't notice, Blizzard updates the game with expansions. Everything doesn't appear in the game at once. For example, there was no third leather wearing class or a Martial Arts class in the game until 2012. At that point WoW had been out for 8 years.

[Aere]

Fortunately we have Druids and Shaman utilizing the nature theme so that isn't a problem.

missing the point once again. You said that engineers can't solo Seigecrafter - I said herbalists can't solo Freya. its equal. Just because a class can solo a boss using the same theme of the boss (any class can), doesn't give justifcation for there to be playable classes with similar themes to all of the bosses.

Shaman and Mages.

Shamans have no resemblance to water, at all. they have a glyph that makes their spells watery, but thats just aesthetics. Mages is also a no because they have other specs, Mages are Frost, Arcane and Fire, where as you want your Technology class to only be based on "technology" bosses, whereas the archetype only fits one and not three elements.

Druids (balance).

Druids have nothing to do with celestial bosses. They have an Astral theme, but that is not celestial. You are Wrong.

Every major archetypal theme in WoW has a corresponding class except technology.

Well, no, I've just proved you wrong.

If you hadn't notice, Blizzard updates the game with expansions. Everything doesn't appear in the game at once. For example, there was no third leather wearing class or a Martial Arts class in the game until 2012. At that point WoW had been out for 8 years.

it took 8 years to "balance" leather classes items. Thankyou for proving my point. If we needed another mail class to balance out the mail loot distribution, it would be immediate, and much like the leather class balance, it wasn't needed anyway, if it took 8 years to implement.

just as an added note (i really want to see how far you'll stretch here)
What archetype for classes do we have for the likes of Tortos, Ji'kun, Dark Animus(not technology, Anima inb4) , Primordius, Durumu and Ra'den (Vita, not electricity, and anima), Garalon, Amber-shaper, Imperial Vizier Zor'lok(sound) , Atreamades (sound). I think thats enough for now.

[Teriz]

missing the point once again. You said that engineers can't solo Seigecrafter - I said herbalists can't solo Freya. its equal. Just because a class can solo a boss using the same theme of the boss (any class can), doesn't give justifcation for there to be playable classes with similar themes to all of the bosses.

Except you have yet to provide a reason why technology doesn't deserve to be a class theme.

Shamans have no resemblance to water, at all. they have a glyph that makes their spells watery, but thats just aesthetics. Mages is also a no because they have other specs, Mages are Frost, Arcane and Fire, where as you want your Technology class to only be based on "technology" bosses, whereas the archetype only fits one and not three elements.

Read restoration's tooltip. It's a water spec. The boss you're referring to summons water elementals, just like Mages. Frost is the offensive version of water magic, which is why Shaman also have frost spells.

Druids have nothing to do with celestial bosses. They have an Astral theme, but that is not celestial. You are Wrong.

Sunfire, Moonfire, Eclipse, Celestial Alignment, Starsurge, Starfall, Shooting Stars?

Nothing to do with celestial? You serious?

it took 8 years to "balance" leather classes items. Thankyou for proving my point. If we needed another mail class to balance out the mail loot distribution, it would be immediate, and much like the leather class balance, it wasn't needed anyway, if it took 8 years to implement.

Actually, the third leather class was implemented 4 years after the third plate class. By the time the next class is introduced it'll be 4 years after the Monk class.

[Aere]

What archetype for classes do we have for the likes of Tortos, Ji'kun, Dark Animus(not technology, Anima inb4) , Primordius, Durumu and Ra'den (Vita, not electricity, and anima), Garalon, Amber-shaper, Imperial Vizier Zor'lok(sound) , Atreamades (sound).

You dodged this - care to explain why? I think that a sound-based class has just as much justifcation as a technology based class, dont you?
or do you finally agree that the technology based class isnt needed? much like how a sound-based class isnt?

and yes, druids have nothing to do with the celestials.

And you, have yet to provide a reason why sound doesnt deserve to be a class theme. or anima, or Vita.

I think you've completely ignored all my previous statements. There is no reason why a technology class should be implemented because it is currently there in the form of a profession in which the other thing that changes is the scale of power, for game balance.

[Ielenia]

Actually it sounds perfectly fine to me.

That is because you obviously don't care at all about game design and balance.

That's your opinion. As it stands, there's nothing in gameplay or lore that says that a hero can't be incredibly gifted in building machines.
If you can find the lore that supports your opinion, it would be appreciated.

You wouldn't even be saying that if you ever played the game, as it is apparent you never even installed WoW in your computer. Every character you make starts their adventure with zero wealth and skills and no knowledge of crafts. WoW is not a game where you're a 'chosen one' or 'digi-destined' or 'the one the prophecies foretold'. No! You're just a common, simple shmuck that decided to go on adventuring, for whatever reasons. Create a new character and look at it. Profession pane: empty. Spell/skillbook: empty. Hotkey bar: empty save for one or two class abilities and racials. For goodness' sake, hunters even start without knowing how to handle their pets!

And you even dare claim 'nothing in gameplay or lore' states a hero can't be incredibly gifted? Want to make a character gifted in building machines? Make a gnome character and take up engineering.

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Except we have evidence and logic to back this "fan-assumption" up.
Mail armor

Actually, no. 'Most agreed upon' is just, again, "fan-assumption." Blizzard never stated they want an equal number of classes wearing cloth, leather, mail and plate. They never even mentioned such a thing.

Class Type

And again, just "fan-assumption." You can claim every single WoW player agrees on this, it would still be fan-assumption simply because Blizzard never made any statement regarding that.

WC3

And again, Blizzard is not bound by any of the rules you've stated. If they want they could even look at Diablo for ideas. Or any other game outside their library.

They are completely different things.

They are not, as you have yet to show us how different an engineer and a tinker are in lore.

I find that statement ironic considering that you ignore the Demon Hunter/Hunter name overlap all the time.

Pot, this is Kettle.

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How is there no place for a technology class when there's no technology class in the game, and a profession and a class don't compete with each other?

There is no place for a technology class in WoW because there is no way to have a tech class start adventuring. Remember: every class starts with zero skills and zero wealth. No wealth means no fancy equipment. That means no claw pack. And no skills means one can't built it out of scraps like you claim.

And before you claim "HERO CLASS!!", hero classes also start with zero wealth and no skills. DK is proof of that.

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Actually by the sounds of your posts you ARE against a tinker class, and you have no good argument.

I've stated it before, way at the beginning of this threat, I believe (or was it the previous thread? Can't recall) that I'm not against a tech class. What I am against is Teriz' Tinker idea and his recent ludicrous claim about the class

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You needProof and Evidence.

Heh. Teriz always claims that 'tinkers are the heroes, and engineers are the crafts for profits' type. That screenshot right there proves that actually the tinker is the 'crafts for profit' type, while the engineer is the hero type.

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You mean like the evidence that there's thousands of technology NPCs with class-like abilities in WoW which the profession will never be able to replicate, represent, or utilize?

Basically every 'tech unit' ability that you dished out can be represented in the engineer profession. Of course, you claim none are, right now, because you ignored every single one.

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It's also false, since he's a siegecrafter, and Blackfuse's abilities aren't like anything in the profession.

I always laugh when I read stuff like this. Blackfuse is an engineer. Siegecrafter is just his title. Good luck next time.

[Talen]

You dodged this - care to explain why? I think that a sound-based class has just as much justifcation as a technology based class, dont you?
or do you finally agree that the technology based class isnt needed? much like how a sound-based class isnt?

If you are going by "need" half the classes in Vanilla weren't needed.

Is a Tech class needed? No. Is a Sound class needed? No.

Would it be beneficial to the game and player base base to add these classes or themes? Arguably...yes. Each would offer opportunities to expand lore, gameplay, mechanics, etc. Neither theme is as yet represented by a player class.

Which to add? Can Blizzard balance 12 Classes? Can it balance 13? Can the theme be explored via an existing class? How much diminishing returns play into this?

If Blizzard feels it can reasonably balance 11 classes...there will be no more classes. If it feels it can balance 12? It will probably add 1 more. if it feels it can balance 13? It might add a 13th class but DR will probably be kicking in a lot here. Personally...I think 12 is pushing it, but possible...13 MIGHT be doable, but no more.

Assuming Blizzard adds just one more class....Tech is probably the more interesting theme for them to play around with. And yes....Tech is also present via Engineering. Just as Magic is present via Enchanting.

EJL

[Teriz]

What archetype for classes do we have for the likes of Tortos, Ji'kun, Dark Animus(not technology, Anima inb4) , Primordius, Durumu and Ra'den (Vita, not electricity, and anima), Garalon, Amber-shaper, Imperial Vizier Zor'lok(sound) , Atreamades (sound).

Tortos, Jikun= Hunters, since they're beasts. Hunters control beasts.

Primordius and Durumu are both aberrations, in that they are artificial life created through science or magic. That falls under technology (Homunculi)

Dark Animus is technology, since its a mechanical golem.

You dodged this - care to explain why? I think that a sound-based class has just as much justifcation as a technology based class, dont you?

It would if it were as widespread as technology, had as much history in the Warcraft universe as technology, and had two races who were completely immersed in sound like they are in technology. Again, there's enough tech-based NPC abilities in the game to create a couple of technology classes. The sound theme simply can't say the same.

and yes, druids have nothing to do with the celestials.

No, but they utilize celestial-based magic. Making a class based on celestials redundant.

And you, have yet to provide a reason why sound doesnt deserve to be a class theme. or anima, or Vita.

I never said that sound doesn't deserve to be a class theme. The problem with the sound theme isn't as large and robust as the technology theme, and if you implement it, you have to bring in Bards, because that's the only archetype that a sound-based class works within. Bards support structure doesn't really work in WoW due to the trinity.

However, if Blizzard created a class based on sound, I wouldn't mind one bit.

Anima and Vita don't because their theme is too tiny to develop three specs for.

I think you've completely ignored all my previous statements. There is no reason why a technology class should be implemented because it is currently there in the form of a profession in which the other thing that changes is the scale of power, for game balance.

And you're completely ignoring common sense. A profession does not take the place of a class.

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There is no place for a technology class in WoW because there is no way to have a tech class start adventuring. Remember: every class starts with zero skills and zero wealth. No wealth means no fancy equipment. That means no claw pack. And no skills means one can't built it out of scraps like you claim.

And before you claim "HERO CLASS!!", hero classes also start with zero wealth and no skills. DK is proof of that.

So what if the class just started off with this;

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=84148

[Aere]

Tortos, Jikun= Hunters, since they're beasts. Hunters control beasts.

yes.. tortos and jikun are hunters. You are completely right.

I think after that statement, there is no hope.
Have fun, Ielenia.

[Teriz]

yes.. tortos and jikun are hunters. You are completely right.

No, Hunters control beasts. Those are beasts.

If you're trying to ask what class can play as animals? Druids.

Either way, its covered.

[Ielenia]

So what if the class just started off with this;
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=84148

Better. Not ideal, but better. So instead of having a claw-pack, he has a gun? That sounds more plausible.

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No, Hunters control beasts. Those are beasts.
If you're trying to ask what class can play as animals? Druids.
Either way, its covered.

Ji-Kun and Tortos aren't related to hunters because they don't have a trainer with them directing the fight. You can claim Horridon is related to hunters because we have his handler controlling the beast. And Ji-Kun and Tortos aren't related to druids because they're not trolls or mogu shape-shifted into beasts. They're just beasts.

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I think after that statement, there is no hope.

There wasn't any hope at all when they started claiming their tinker would start with such a level of super-mega-astronomical-genius they could instinctively build a mechanical claw-pack out of scraps at level 1, without knowing any skill or craft.

[Sukhoi]

Tortos, Jikun= Hunters, since they're beasts. Hunters control beasts.

Primordius and Durumu are both aberrations, in that they are artificial life created through science or magic. That falls under technology (Homunculi)

Dark Animus is technology, since its a mechanical golem.

Jesus christ..

[Drilnos]

And you even dare claim 'nothing in gameplay or lore' states a hero can't be incredibly gifted? Want to make a character gifted in building machines? Make a gnome character and take up engineering.

When they added DKs, who inscribe magic symbols, they - at the very same time - added an entire profession whose entire point was to inscribe magic symbols. When they added Brewmasters, they didn't tiptoe around the few drinks present in cooking - no, they added an entire section named "Way of the Brew." And a supertitle, "Master of the Ways." Which means, by extension, "Brewmaster and Master of a Lot of Other Things." So by logical extension, if you want to be a Brewmaster, you could roll a Pandaren, pick up cooking, and get the Brewfest title.

But it is not the same gameplay, or lore, as playing a monk tank. Even one who can call himself a Master of the Ways.

[Ielenia]

When they added DKs, who inscribe magic symbols, they - at the very same time - added an entire profession whose entire point was to inscribe magic symbols. When they added Brewmasters, they didn't tiptoe around the few drinks present in cooking - no, they added an entire section named "Way of the Brew." And a supertitle, "Master of the Ways." Which means, by extension, "Brewmaster and Master of a Lot of Other Things." So by logical extension, if you want to be a Brewmaster, you could roll a Pandaren, pick up cooking, and get the Brewfest title.

You don't even need to go that far. Just do all the achievements during Brewfest and you can be 'Brewmaster whatever-your-character-name-is.'

But the point stands: everything in the game's starting zones show you as a penniless John or Jane Doe trying to start their adventures throughout Azeroth. You start your adventures with no gold, and no skills. So, no, you're not a 'genius' that can somehow instinctively build over-complicated machines out of mere scraps.

[Sukhoi]

Let me remind everyone. Literally none of this matters. Okay cool theres a 100+ page on this shit on mmoc. Nice. So you win/dont win an argument on a forum. Does that mean tinkers are going to be put into the game? NO.

[Belisaurio]

Blizzard certainly could deviate from that, but why would they? There's zero negatives in introducing a mail armor, tri-role, technology-based class.

Give me a good reason why they wouldn't implement what I outlined above. Especially considering that if they're going to introduce a new class, a technology class is pretty much ready made for them to implement, and fits as a mail class, and a tri-role class.

You have the answer: Because if they want to create another class, they are not locked by this fanfacts.

[Talen]

So what if the class just started off with this;

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=84148

What if warriors started off with http://www.wowhead.com/item=45179 instead?

Or better...what if warriors started off with just their fists and few rags?

After all, they start with no resources, no money. How did they...or Paladins, or Rogues, or any other class...get their equipment if they don't have the resources or history to acquire it. The truth is...they do start off with their basic equipment. They do start off with their basic skills. Why is the Tinker different?

All classes start off with basic equipment, a result of their previous pre-player life if nothing else. Maybe they were a squire or an apprentice. Maybe they found the equipment and want to start a new life.

Tinkers might start off with a Gun or Vibrosword and nothing more but the clothes on their back. More or less what everyone else starts with and like every other class, something that is thematically appropriate. And yes...if the class was to make widespread use of the Claw pack throughout all three spec....then it would likely be basic equipment provided at level 1. Whether it was found, stolen, self made, inherited or a legacy of their apprenticeship to Gelbin or Gallywix...they'd have it. Just as warriors and other classes start with their own set of basic equipment and skills. They'd know how to use it...just as a warrior knows how to use his sword at Level1. They 'd know how to maintain it...just as a warrior knows how to maintain his equipment at Level 1. And if the lore of the class says they built it...then they'd have the knowledge to build it.

Point is, they'd have the same level of skills and knowledge and resources every other starter class does. Which is whatever it takes to get them out the door and adventuring. A basic set of equipment and enough background knowledge as part of their in persona history to get away with it. That might mean no claw pack until Level 10 or 40 or whenever they gain it. Or it might mean a Claw pack at level 1. That means they may or may not start off with engineering knowledge...but they won't start off with the Engineering profession, even if you want to argue they should. Gameplay beats lore and we know Mages must learn the Enchanting profession even though Enchanting is a basic staple of the arcane arts.

Ielenia has these grand ideas about what a Tinker class should be but in reality....the issues being raised have always been meaningless. The idea that a Tinker can't be allowed because he won't have the resources to provide his equipment is just as fanciful as denying warriors because they don't start with a full set of tier armor.

Tinkers would most likely start off with a gun or vibrosword at Level1. Something to get that Tech theme off from the start. A clawpack, if used, will likely come later. A clawpack, if used at level 1, will be the very basic model...same as with the rest of the starter equipment. It is pointless trying to suggest he'd start with something more...he won't.

EJL

[Ielenia]

All classes start off with basic equipment, a result of their previous pre-player life if nothing else.

Yes. That means, at best, tinkers would start with the same gun the hunters start with.

And yes...if the class was to make widespread use of the Claw pack throughout all three spec....then it would likely be basic equipment provided at level 1.

And that single line proves why the 'claw pack' won't ever be introduced as anything other than a cooldown, showing up while the ability is running, and disappearing while the cooldown is ticking. A cooldown, mind you, that would probably be only be introduced way later in the character progression, of course, due to the kind of advanced engineering required to assemble such a thing.

Ielenia has these grand ideas about what a Tinker class should be but in reality....the issues being raised have always been meaningless. The idea that a Tinker can't be allowed because he won't have the resources to provide his equipment is just as fanciful as denying warriors because they don't start with a full set of tier armor.

Just because you refuse to deal with them accordingly, it doesn't mean all the issues that I, and others, raised are meaningless. Gnomes don't start with 'vibro-swords' or any tech item despite starting in a tech-based area. You make wild, ludicrous claims about your tinker fanfiction about him being such a genius to assemble a claw-pack from scraps despite having no knowledge of any craft or skill, which means he doesn't know the engineering skills to assemble such a machine. Then you say the pack is given to him. Why? All classes start with the most 'basic' equipment: one weapon, maybe a shield, and cloths. No rings, necklaces, helms, trinkets, etc. Nothing else. Why should the Tinkers start with so much more? Just to accommodate your fanfictions? Please.

[Monstercloud]

No. I'm going to "win" it by pointing out you are wrong. Dispel Magic is explicitly stated to be an Enchantment spell. In Lore. In the game.

It's mentioned in the book. That doesn't mean it's connected to that same school.

This is not D&D and your knowledge of the spell schools in WoW appears limited.

Except that the spells in WoW aren't listed by the schools you are so married to, and with the exception of evocation (which is not to say that there couldn't be, as we have a spell called it, and the introduction says there are 8 schools of magic, when you can only find 7) all the schools are derived from classic D&D magic schools.

Mages are Enchanters just like Tinkers would probably be Engineers.
Mages don't know the Enchantign porfession and Tinekrs won't know the Engineerign Profession.

First of all, here's a cracker

Second, to end this stupid "Mages are enchanters" diatribe, from the Introduction

Each of these categories is known as a school of magic, for they are often learned separately and mages frequently choose to specialize in one type or another.

You know what that means? That means the only time a mage WOULD be an enchanter, is if they SPECIALIZE in it. By your logic, you would have to argue that every Mage who knew how to cast one necromancy spell, or even merely studied it, is a necromancer. That makes 0 logical sense.

That you see the D&D schools as somehow a problem in this analogy is not really an issue Blizzard designers need to consider.

The last person that should be saying what Blizzard should be considering when it comes to game design is you people.

I didn't provide a story to be fan fiction.

Your speculative imagination is "Fanfiction".

Or to put all this another way....lets ignore the game lore that destroys the argument I am making up.

FTFY

[Teriz]

Better. Not ideal, but better. So instead of having a claw-pack, he has a gun? That sounds more plausible.

Yeah, and over the course of the leveling process the technology class could acquire more skills for their gun;

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=49945
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=148085
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=144464
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=93655
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=52778
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=36346

Just to name a few possibilities....

Ji-Kun and Tortos aren't related to hunters because they don't have a trainer with them directing the fight. You can claim Horridon is related to hunters because we have his handler controlling the beast. And Ji-Kun and Tortos aren't related to druids because they're not trolls or mogu shape-shifted into beasts. They're just beasts.

Merely pointing out that we have two classes that already deal with beasts.

[Ielenia]

Yeah, and over the course of the leveling process the technology class could acquire more skills for their gun;

Yeah. Thing is, he wouldn't start with that gun you mentioned. He'll start with a simple gun like the hunters if he is ranged, or sword like warriors if melee. And how would the tinker 'add' things to his weapon if he doesn't know any craft, especially not engineering?

Merely pointing out that we have two classes that already deal with beasts.

Which, again, aren't related to those bosses at all since those two don't fit in any player class we have.