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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilderness View Post
    Its not scripted like a PVE encounter is, that's true. However, with similar skill levels you are going to run into the same kinds of situations and uses of abilities based on your class and their class, or your comp vs their comp. Its not the same as PVE since people don't always do the same things and people have different reaction times and skill, but its not exactly like every time a mage fights a warrior there are an infinite number of ways it can go. There are only a few optimal things for each class to do based on the other, which is not unlike PVE in that regard. Sure, both classes have a ton of things they could do, but most of them will end up in a very short fight for one or the other if they don't counter the others abilities correctly.
    Well put. If you go watch the PvP'ers on twitch they'll call out what the other guy is going to do and then they'll do it. Same happens in SC2 and I'm sure other games. Sure you might come up against some scrub and wallop him, but that's like a PvE'er gloating over an LFR kill.

    The best fights are the ones that are tuned so tightly that 25 people need to perform to 100% of their class for an extended time. It's like trying to do Sudoku while getting balls thrown at you while you're trying to cross a bridge, a la Japanese game show.

    Both PvP and PvE require comparable skill at the level you are trying to perform at so it's just about which one you prefer or you can do both like many do.

  2. #202
    The Lightbringer Bigbazz's Avatar
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    It seems you don't understand because you're doing LFR and think it has some sort of relation to organised PVE. I like PVE but I dont do LFR for a good reason.
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  3. #203
    I have an analogy for you.

    PVE Is like joining a choir, or playing in a symphony, or performing in a play. You each practice separately, you hone your skill, you play small groups, sing in your spare time, and then you come together with 40 people and practice playing together. You might practice a lot, the better your group is the less you'll probably have to practice. You might practice the same section over and over, and you might perform it quite a lot as well. You enjoyment is the mastery of your piece, working as a group to achieve something difficult that takes time and effort and expertise.

    PVP is like playing a sport, it's you vs. them. The rules are generally fairly simple, your competition is the other person. You could compete singly or in a group. Each game is different, but the rules are the same every time. It's up to you to react to other people, not master the system, it's more fluid.

    People enjoy both things, solo or group performance, and competition. The missing component of LFR is the practicing together and group component of shared experience. If you sat in on a symphony where half the players couldn't hit a clean note you'd want to walk out as well.

    That said I've been in some LFRs where it all worked well, and honestly I run a lot of LFR. I find it fairly entertaining. Take the Megara run I did last night in lfr, two 560+ healers. The players all just stacked, and the tanks too, right in front of the heads, and we all got breathed on, at every spot, sometimes from both serpents.

    250k hps from me and the druid for the fight. Two at 150k, and two at 100k. Yes, 1m hps for ToT lfr. And we beat the boss.

    Now that's entertainment. The only thing more entertaining than that is watching the fountains of meat in LFR Thok. I've literally spit coffee across my screen from laughing so hard when the player turns the boss right into the stack of players, or when the person just stands there, skull on their head, giant red beam pointing at them and they just stand there....and watch as the 40m tall dino walks up and munches them.

    Hi-larious.

  4. #204
    Moderator Wilderness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swissedog View Post
    I have an analogy for you.

    PVE Is like joining a choir, or playing in a symphony, or performing in a play. You each practice separately, you hone your skill, you play small groups, sing in your spare time, and then you come together with 40 people and practice playing together. You might practice a lot, the better your group is the less you'll probably have to practice. You might practice the same section over and over, and you might perform it quite a lot as well. You enjoyment is the mastery of your piece, working as a group to achieve something difficult that takes time and effort and expertise.

    PVP is like playing a sport, it's you vs. them. The rules are generally fairly simple, your competition is the other person. You could compete singly or in a group. Each game is different, but the rules are the same every time. It's up to you to react to other people, not master the system, it's more fluid.
    I like that analogy a lot.

  5. #205
    For me personally heroic modes is where the fun is at. It's the feeling of accomplishment when you finally kill that boss, get that awesome piece of loot you've wanted for quite some time, seeing your dps/healing/tanking improve as you gear up and get more experience and last but definately not least, clearing out the raid-instance on highest difficulty. Doing all the previously mentioned in a guild that has fun and comfortable athmostphere makes it just that much better. I don't mind that it takes a lot of effort (preparing for raids with food buffs, potions, flasks, keeping your gear reforged, gemmed and enchanted properly etc), the reward is too good for me to resist. I guess most people want to be rewarded faster and because of this can't be arsed with organized raiding.

    If you feel like you really NEED pve gear for outdoor pvp, I'd seriously suggest you to even try organized raiding in a guild that's preferably quite casual so you don't waste too much of your time which you can spend pvping instead. Give it a shot, what's there to lose?
    Main: Rogue - Alt: Balance Druid

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by advanta View Post
    This is going to be a controversial post, but I have a confession to make:

    I hate pve.

    I mean, I really hate it.

    I don't understand why any one does it repeatedly.

    Normal experience in an LFR raid is this:

    1) Massive amounts of waiting around for tanks/healers.
    2) No tactics mentioned, or if they are they are communicated far too quickly.
    3) Actual fights often devolve into some kind of demented game of twister,
    "stand in the red stuff", "jump in the blue stuff, "move in and out of the green
    stuff.
    4) Group wipes on anything other than tank-and-spank.
    5) Post-menstrual healer (and I'm not talking about women here mainly) blames
    poor dps. Or the tank. Or any one but the post-menstrual healer.
    6) Some complete bastard wips out recount.
    7) Two things then happen as a result i) tank's feelings are hurt and he quits,
    more waiting ii) dps start focusing on their rotation and ignore tactics altogether
    so the recount nazi doesn't pick on them, group wipes again.

    OK, so as I'm sure the pve'rs will say, LFR sucks, which it does, massively. Join a
    good guild.

    Now, I can appreciate a good guild with a great raid leader would make for a more
    positive experience. But, that's like saying working in a bank is great if your co-workers
    are fun people. However, you do it, as the content becomes familiar through repetition
    it becomes a chore, as does anything. There is no possibility of deviation from your
    core tactics/rotation, and these things take hours.

    I usually complete new raids at least once. But, I can't understand how any one can do the
    same content again and again and again till autumn. Indeed, many don't, judging by
    the numbers that dropped off in dragon soul. Seriously, how do you raiders manage it?

    If you contrast this with PVP: every new BG is quite a different experience. There are infinite
    number of strategies and permutations depending on your own abilities and those of the
    teams. You can try something new every game and it feels great when you discover a new
    trick that really works.
    Yet, pvp is really an afterthought for Blizzard despite the fact it is competitive with PVE based
    on subscriber stats.

    Also, I really can't understand the lack of importance Blizzard place on questing. No one ever
    mentions this, but no one ever actually started wow at endgame content. Most of us had to
    level up for literally months, at least, pre-cata. We started by going out in the world, questing
    and world pvp. Yet it seems that the world, beautiful as it is, is essentially now just an introduction
    to pve content I don't want to do. Why isn't it an end in itself?

    You may say: OK, so don't pve and shut up. Which I'd be very happy to do. But, unfortunately at
    the moment you can't do world pvp without pve gear. The best pvp is actually world pvp, difficult
    as it is to get a world raid going. There is no better experience for a pvper than trying to kill garrosh
    in uninstanced Ogrimmar with fifty horde trying to stop us. So, you have no real choice if you want
    to do that than grind through raids.
    Look to most of the heroic content, and most bosses are really hard, and the joy when u finally kill a boss u've been progressing on for like 200 wipes+ that feeling is a feeling u'll never forget

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  7. #207
    Herald of the Titans Sibut's Avatar
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    Beats sitting in the same 6 arena rooms over and over again, facing slightly different comps of people?
    Quote Originally Posted by Annoying View Post
    Come to Detroit for the beer and crumbling architecture.

    Stay in Detroit because someone stole your passport.

  8. #208
    Mechagnome
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    I don't see how you haven't already found the answer yourself. You identified questing as an introduction to pve content, which it is. You also identified your admiration for the variations and complexities of a pvp experience on a game by game basis, this is certainly the case. And you point out that the importance of community has the power to significantly change how one perceives an experience.

    So you pretty much built the answer already.

    PVE (I'd count everything Normal mode and up) raids are not as fundamentally different from your pvp as you think. Every raid IS different in spite of the dedication to a detailed and occasionally complex strategy because of differences in luck, differences in player decision making at the time, differences in gear from prior weeks, differences in people/characters brought to the raid. Raiders at the high end relish the success achieved by extending their expertise one step further every single boss they kill. Beating speed records, pushing the limits of dps, and most importantly of all sharing the experience with as upwards of 24 other individual like minded gamers at the same time. The communal nature of World of Warcraft's PVE truly is the best of all MMO experiences because it is built upon years and years of cooperation between players. While some guilds certainly have lasted longer than others because people change more than the games, some guilds have existed together since Classic and the experiences of being a guild and raiding together have shaped memories that are important to their very sense of self.

    Honestly, it's the same as the pursuit of the highest levels of PVP, be it going for gladiator rank, or the illustrious and coveted seat of Grand Marshall/High Warlord from classic. These actions are all repetitive, grindy by their very nature because ALL of WoW is a psychological trap of perceived gains in power, but the fact that they are shared experiences that consistently fill us with a sense of accomplishment for constantly improving at our skills they are cherished.

    I don't pvp since I need to commit what little time I have to gaming towards being a thoughtful raid leader that plans out our next heroic strategy, but I can see where people of all walks of gaming find their own joy. After all, it's really not all that different for all of us.
    Naftc, "Hunters are the cheapest class in game and when played right are more deadly than a train plowing through a field of bunnies covered in napalm"

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by advanta View Post
    If you contrast this with PVP: every new BG is quite a different experience. There are infinite
    number of strategies and permutations depending on your own abilities and those of the
    teams.
    You can try something new every game and it feels great when you discover a new
    trick that really works.
    GZ, you just described progress raiding, while not infinite, fights are designed to be able to be executed in lots of different ways.
    Does majority follow guides, sure do, but doesnt change the fact that majority of guilds does not have the exact setup, nor strenght and weaknesses of that setup.

    For tiers that go on this long ? Yeh, i quit / level alts / play other games.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Quesium View Post
    Look to most of the heroic content, and most bosses are really hard, and the joy when u finally kill a boss u've been progressing on for like 200 wipes+ that feeling is a feeling u'll never forget
    Joy ? After 300+ wipes on blackfuse hc the only feeling i had was relief, relief that it was fucking dead. No joy, no happiness, just a big fucking sigh of relief lol.
    The 2nd kill however was much more fun xD

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by advanta View Post
    This is going to be a controversial post, but I have a confession to make:

    I hate pve.

    I mean, I really hate it.

    I don't understand why any one does it repeatedly.

    Normal experience in an LFR raid is this:

    1) Massive amounts of waiting around for tanks/healers.
    2) No tactics mentioned, or if they are they are communicated far too quickly.
    3) Actual fights often devolve into some kind of demented game of twister,
    "stand in the red stuff", "jump in the blue stuff, "move in and out of the green
    stuff.
    4) Group wipes on anything other than tank-and-spank.
    5) Post-menstrual healer (and I'm not talking about women here mainly) blames
    poor dps. Or the tank. Or any one but the post-menstrual healer.
    6) Some complete bastard wips out recount.
    7) Two things then happen as a result i) tank's feelings are hurt and he quits,
    more waiting ii) dps start focusing on their rotation and ignore tactics altogether
    so the recount nazi doesn't pick on them, group wipes again.

    OK, so as I'm sure the pve'rs will say, LFR sucks, which it does, massively. Join a
    good guild.

    Now, I can appreciate a good guild with a great raid leader would make for a more
    positive experience. But, that's like saying working in a bank is great if your co-workers
    are fun people. However, you do it, as the content becomes familiar through repetition
    it becomes a chore, as does anything. There is no possibility of deviation from your
    core tactics/rotation, and these things take hours.

    I usually complete new raids at least once. But, I can't understand how any one can do the
    same content again and again and again till autumn. Indeed, many don't, judging by
    the numbers that dropped off in dragon soul. Seriously, how do you raiders manage it?

    If you contrast this with PVP: every new BG is quite a different experience. There are infinite
    number of strategies and permutations depending on your own abilities and those of the
    teams. You can try something new every game and it feels great when you discover a new
    trick that really works.
    Yet, pvp is really an afterthought for Blizzard despite the fact it is competitive with PVE based
    on subscriber stats.

    Also, I really can't understand the lack of importance Blizzard place on questing. No one ever
    mentions this, but no one ever actually started wow at endgame content. Most of us had to
    level up for literally months, at least, pre-cata. We started by going out in the world, questing
    and world pvp. Yet it seems that the world, beautiful as it is, is essentially now just an introduction
    to pve content I don't want to do. Why isn't it an end in itself?

    You may say: OK, so don't pve and shut up. Which I'd be very happy to do. But, unfortunately at
    the moment you can't do world pvp without pve gear. The best pvp is actually world pvp, difficult
    as it is to get a world raid going. There is no better experience for a pvper than trying to kill garrosh
    in uninstanced Ogrimmar with fifty horde trying to stop us. So, you have no real choice if you want
    to do that than grind through raids.

    Don't complain about LFR to justify why PvE is bad. Alterac Valley is more PvE then LFR is.

    And coincidentally, I'd also propose that LFR is more PvP than Alterac Valley with all the infighting there is.

  11. #211
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by iinverse View Post
    Still actual
    This is precisely why OP hates PvE and I hate PvP.
    I actually sabotaged "my" team in Silvershard Mines when forced there by Wrathion and I have not a tiniest conscience pang.

  12. #212
    PvP is just as predictable as PvE is.

  13. #213
    Upper-End PvP and upper-end PvE are entirely different.

    Bottom-feeder PvE and bottom-feeder PvP are both predictable and mundane.

    "There are two types of guys in this world. Guys who sniff their fingers after scratching their balls, and dirty fucking liars." -StylesClashv3
    "Elo Hell is where the Ego is greater than the Elo." -Bystekhilcar

  14. #214
    i´m sure it´s been said before but playing with friends is fun

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by bolly View Post
    Raised in a very athletic background, it was both hilarious and very insulting to play against most people who trash talked. They'd crack a range of jokes from "yo mama" to insulting your looks or game. In contrast, I have come to find that trash talking in gaming is rather sad. They typically just call you "noob" or scream "OMFG U SUCK" or profanities. Because of this, PvP does have a boring, sour taste in my mouth.
    This so much. It's not like I inherently hate pvp. But the overall community experience is what has driven me away from it. You could say this about pve, which is true in some cases. But it's much easier to avoid here. And pve encompasses much more than just raids.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by urieliszcze View Post
    This is precisely why OP hates PvE and I hate PvP.
    I still find it fascinating how people are not only willing to buy games that they hate genuinely enough to argue day-long with total strangers that make a point of holding up "the other opinion" just for doing so, but also continue to pay and play for years even after recognizing their dislike. Did you ever realise that WoW has both PvE and PvP so that people who don't like one can play the other without having to complain constantly? In that light this thread doesn't even begin to make sense.
    There are too many design flaws in your game. As a result, your customers' game experience may be degraded. Fire or replace the failing developers if you don't want to see this message again.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by advanta View Post
    This is going to be a controversial post, but I have a confession to make:

    I hate pve.

    I mean, I really hate it.

    I don't understand why any one does it repeatedly.

    Normal experience in an LFR raid is this:

    1) Massive amounts of waiting around for tanks/healers.
    2) No tactics mentioned, or if they are they are communicated far too quickly.
    3) Actual fights often devolve into some kind of demented game of twister,
    "stand in the red stuff", "jump in the blue stuff, "move in and out of the green
    stuff.
    4) Group wipes on anything other than tank-and-spank.
    5) Post-menstrual healer (and I'm not talking about women here mainly) blames
    poor dps. Or the tank. Or any one but the post-menstrual healer.
    6) Some complete bastard wips out recount.
    7) Two things then happen as a result i) tank's feelings are hurt and he quits,
    more waiting ii) dps start focusing on their rotation and ignore tactics altogether
    so the recount nazi doesn't pick on them, group wipes again.

    OK, so as I'm sure the pve'rs will say, LFR sucks, which it does, massively. Join a
    good guild.

    Now, I can appreciate a good guild with a great raid leader would make for a more
    positive experience. But, that's like saying working in a bank is great if your co-workers
    are fun people. However, you do it, as the content becomes familiar through repetition
    it becomes a chore, as does anything. There is no possibility of deviation from your
    core tactics/rotation, and these things take hours.

    I usually complete new raids at least once. But, I can't understand how any one can do the
    same content again and again and again till autumn. Indeed, many don't, judging by
    the numbers that dropped off in dragon soul. Seriously, how do you raiders manage it?

    If you contrast this with PVP: every new BG is quite a different experience. There are infinite
    number of strategies and permutations depending on your own abilities and those of the
    teams. You can try something new every game and it feels great when you discover a new
    trick that really works.
    Yet, pvp is really an afterthought for Blizzard despite the fact it is competitive with PVE based
    on subscriber stats.

    Also, I really can't understand the lack of importance Blizzard place on questing. No one ever
    mentions this, but no one ever actually started wow at endgame content. Most of us had to
    level up for literally months, at least, pre-cata. We started by going out in the world, questing
    and world pvp. Yet it seems that the world, beautiful as it is, is essentially now just an introduction
    to pve content I don't want to do. Why isn't it an end in itself?

    You may say: OK, so don't pve and shut up. Which I'd be very happy to do. But, unfortunately at
    the moment you can't do world pvp without pve gear. The best pvp is actually world pvp, difficult
    as it is to get a world raid going. There is no better experience for a pvper than trying to kill garrosh
    in uninstanced Ogrimmar with fifty horde trying to stop us. So, you have no real choice if you want
    to do that than grind through raids.
    Probably already said but 11 pages of comments to go through. It's like a pve person saying "I hate random bgs, half the time I'm just running to a mark on the map and attacking what's there, no one told me there are certain map icons to prioritize and if we had we could have won the bg but since we lost due to lack of direction I hate pvp, and ya I could join a pvp guild or a premade bg but I don't want to and refuse to have a good pvp experience so just choose to call it bad."

  18. #218
    Personally I think PvP is repetitive and boring. Rarely is there a good cohesive team in a random BG, and in Arena's it winds up being "play the OP class or you suck."
    Also, the gameplay is pretty crap. It's just tons of CC and knowing when to use your trinket and CD's.

    PVE isn't a whole lot better, but I enjoy the people I play with, and I think that heroic fights are a fun challenge.

    This beautiful signature was done by Sugarpixie

  19. #219
    "PVE is easy, it's just the same scripted encounter over and over" I don't really buy that, if that were true then guilds would 2 shot every boss, so obviously it's not that cut and dry. Sometimes someone important dies and you don't have a battle rez, so you have to improvise on the fly and call out a replacement

  20. #220
    Mechagnome Captainn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonsaii View Post
    Personally I think PvP is repetitive and boring. Rarely is there a good cohesive team in a random BG, and in Arena's it winds up being "play the OP class or you suck."
    Also, the gameplay is pretty crap. It's just tons of CC and knowing when to use your trinket and CD's.

    PVE isn't a whole lot better, but I enjoy the people I play with, and I think that heroic fights are a fun challenge.
    Coasted my way to Challenger in 3's with a warrior and a holy paladin and we geared up in 3's. Had no clue what we were doing. Tis a joke.
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