Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst
1
2
  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Smitus View Post
    No offense, but you are dumb.
    Well you sure showed him who was boss.

    In an ideal circumstance mouseovers are insubstantially better than clicking. Unfortunately, ideal circumstances are not realistic. I personally prefer clicking targets rather than mouseovers as it gives me much better feedback on my actions. With a mouseover, I can only assume that it's healing the correct person and I've learned by quite a few deaths that it's not always the case. The only benefit of mouseovers for me is just quality of life. Playing a paladin, monk or priest with mouseovers means that the boss never needs to be untargeted and makes gameplay much more fluid. That's it.

    Yes, I do use mouseovers, but for important spells such as Hand of Protection, Pain Supp, etc. I still use clicking for the reasons above. I've never had a death from the sub 100ms delay. Honestly, a person would gain more from changing actions to be on button press rather than button release than they'd get from mouseovers or clicking.

    This is like an argument of using Grid/Vuhdo/any raid frame addon vs the default UI. It's personal preference, and the person will perform better with what they prefer even if it is theoretically slightly worse or better.

    edit: By clicking I mean clicking targets, obviously I keybind the spells.
    Last edited by Larynx; 2014-03-26 at 04:41 PM.

  2. #22
    Warchief Rizendragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Raleigh, North Carolina
    Posts
    2,045
    Quote Originally Posted by Orcbert View Post
    Hi, I've only had my paladin for a few weeks now but the way I've been running my SH build is setting a boss to a focus and using macros to Judge them and Holy Prism them. The macros are set so that it switches target, judges, then goes back to my last target.

    On fights with one central target up the whole time this works well (like Sha of Pride). This setup gets a little shaken up on fights like Galakras or Spoils as I need to constantly be switching targets.

    Am I doing this oddly or is there a more efficient way to work a Holy Paladin? It seems without these macros I would be constantly target switching to the enemy, which I don't want to do as a healer.
    Depending on how you personally play something like Clique would make what you are trying to do infinitely easier.
    Originally Posted by Bashiok
    The dishonest are want to identify dishonesty, even where it doesn't exist.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    You can clamor about how it's faster all you want, it never really matters. We're talking sub 100 ms here (and I'm being generous), upgrading your internet has a bigger effect than that. If someone's in the position to eat 80% of their health as damage WHILE already being in danger of dying due to high raid-wide incoming damage (why LoH them if they aren't in danger despite the 80% in damage?), it's their fault. The devs don't design fights around differences in reaction times like these.
    That is simply not true. If mouseover macros do not matter why do "1 shot" macros matter? why does macros in general matter? why does 300 food over 275 food matter?

    Now imagine every 25 people in your raid saying the above. Small things matter when you put them into a bigger perspective. Yes good internet also matters and a good computer. You know what my old guild did on Teron Gorefiend in BT when the guy with the bad computer got the debuff? We fucking wiped.


    That said its never a good idea to practice going from targeting to mouseover during progression, save that for farm or when your guild is having a break.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    That is simply not true. If mouseover macros do not matter why do "1 shot" macros matter? why does macros in general matter? why does 300 food over 275 food matter?

    Now imagine every 25 people in your raid saying the above. Small things matter when you put them into a bigger perspective. Yes good internet also matters and a good computer. You know what my old guild did on Teron Gorefiend in BT when the guy with the bad computer got the debuff? We fucking wiped.


    That said its never a good idea to practice going from targeting to mouseover during progression, save that for farm or when your guild is having a break.
    I agree 100000% with this last statement. I have been healing click style (targets, not full clicker lol) since I started healing. And when we started prog on soo I tried clique, and it fucked me up big time, so stay with what u do until you get don time to try it and get used to it

  5. #25
    Interesting thread...

    I only play healer, have a few dps, offs, but never played it @ end raids...

    I have never used mouseover in my life! and i do not slack the way you guys are putting, slow reaction...whatever... the biggest problem is the mechanic of the fight, if you know where shit can go wrong, you can predict, and pre-heal, and a Tight UI is the key between "Fast and Slow" reactions.

    Someone mentioned the Hpally with boss on target never missed a cast; you can see the boss actions in a Target of Target frame, or even timers and WA, so no difference here...

    In my UI, when i click a target, I Get to see the timers for buffs and debuffs, stacks, things that would polute my raid frame.

    so i see no better option here, just playstyle.....

    @OP

    I used to heal with SH until yesterday (needed to go to EF due to its strongest heals, i mean actual heal, no absorbs) and when i needed to judge, i just pressed the KB and selected my target in the GCD...in the end, i needed to add a macro for my judge, so it would target my focus after, so i could run like a crazy man.

  6. #26
    Mechagnome Bormes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    IL, USA
    Posts
    532
    If you're targeting players and not using mouseover bindings (or addon like clique), you're making your job harder than it has to be, and limiting yourself on the top end due to the inevitable minor delays that come with constantly switching targets to heal. Use mouseovers, and keep the boss targeted the whole time. This helps you be constantly aware of the progress of the fight (boss HP), easily see abilities casted by the boss (boss cast bar), easily note boss target (target target), and easily judge/holy prism the (usually) optimal target for maximum healing, and leaves your focus for other useful things, like NPCs on Galakras, etc.

    In my UI, when i click a target, I Get to see the timers for buffs and debuffs, stacks, things that would polute my raid frame.
    A well-configured grid can show all these things without clutter or pollution, mine looks spectacular and it shows all of that, just takes some time to config, and even better you can see these things on everyone, not just your target, allowing you to prioritize heals much more effectively. Knowing who has bleeds, debuffs, certain boss effects can help greatly in deciding on a target, especially in this day and age of healing where you need to keep ppl topped and pre-heal for hots/mastery shields.

    Recently my guild recruited a new holy paladin to our guild who didn't use any mouseovers or a well-configured set of unit frames. After a week of not being able to come close to any of our healers (gear difference was negligible) he asked me for some advice. Showed him the addon clique and how to setup mouseovers (takes like 2 minutes to setup all urs with this addon) and then gave him my grid.lua settings file. He now competes very closely with myself and all the other healers. He said he would have never changed had he not seen himself getting spanked so bad that week, and is glad he did because he's a much better healer now. And we're very glad he did too.
    Last edited by Bormes; 2014-04-25 at 03:47 PM.

  7. #27
    Brewmaster dryankem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    London, ON, Canada
    Posts
    1,283
    I used target of target for my disc priest. Made attonement easy and never had to take my focus off of the tank, although everyone once in a while tank wouldn't have a target but that was rare.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    Clicking your target is the matter of 1/10th of a second, if that. Even suggesting that it's comparable to the downtime caused by clicking spells is ridiculous. What makes clicking spells so bad is the cursor movement, which click targeting doesn't have, and the fact it restricts mouse turning.
    We can argue all day about how exactly and to what degree is it bad to click as a healer, but you are significantly gimping yourself if you are not using mouseover macros. It takes very little to click once but it adds up at the end of the fight + that 1/10 second together with input lag may very well be the difference between a death and life. Another big advantage of having the mob selected at all times is that you can see their cast bars. Take Spoils for example. It is extremely helpful to see the cast bar of mogu mini boss to know exactly when to pop a devo or just to make a quick decision in general. On Horridon, it was extremely convenient to keep pink dinosaur as your target and just press reckoning from time to time without switching. On Thok.. I don't even need to explain that.

  9. #29
    There are people in this thread who can't differentiate between clicking to target and clicking to cast on target.
    To be human is to possess superior intelligence to other species, yet channel that otherwise-wondrous potential into the most degenerate of endeavors rather than benefiting the world.

  10. #30
    yeah there seems to be some confusion.

    3 ways:
    • Mouseover: Hover over and press your keybind.
    • Clicking: Mouse Clicks(with possible modifiers) on target frames.(clique or vuhdo or healbot)
    • Target Clicking: Targeting a friendly/enemy target and then pressing your keybind to heal target.

    This last one isn't as bad but there is a reason we use food buffs and flasks during a raid. We reforge and enchant our gear. To me it seems silly not to take the advantage of click/mouseover casting. Yes if your not that experienced you will likely miss target with mouseover heals when your learning. But the same thing can happen if you click target and you press the button to fast.
    For me the biggest reason is being able to target mostly enemies for their castbars. In my 10man the extra interrupt can be quite useful and untill they remove it i'm sure as hell going use it.


    Of course you can also add in clicking spells on your toolbars but that's really slow and pretty much universally agreed upon bad.



    Quote Originally Posted by Larynx View Post
    This is like an argument of using Grid/Vuhdo/any raid frame addon vs the default UI. It's personal preference, and the person will perform better with what they prefer even if it is theoretically slightly worse or better.
    I'm sorry but i have to disagree with you. Personally i use vuhdo and i can display a lot more information then i can on the default frames. I can also filter out certain information better then with the default UI. Yes you can do a lot with the default ui these days but it's not the same.

  11. #31
    Personally I use vuhdo and assign my keybinds into that so that i can keep the boss targeted at all times. I do this for selfless healer and eternal flame builds and it makes it much simpler to ensure that my holy prism and/or judgement is going out.

  12. #32
    Mechagnome Bormes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    IL, USA
    Posts
    532
    Clicking your target is the matter of 1/10th of a second, if that. Even suggesting that it's comparable to the downtime caused by clicking spells is ridiculous.
    It's actually more than 1/10 of a second. Considering the average human reaction time is around 200 milliseconds you're already off by a factor of 2, and that's not taking into account latency (not just internet latency, button press latency, signal processing latency, etc). After all that it comes out to a bit more. In this day and age of healing and having to keep ppl topped (and with as much absorbs as possible) due to very punishing mechanics being the only way to challenge healers (due largely to the way healers scale with gear presently), and considering ur GCD could be nearing 1 sec with haste, even 1/10 of a second can make a difference in getting that heal off that would otherwise kill someone. Another problem is all the extra clicking/targeting increases the chances you'll make a mistake somewhere. In high-end raiding small mistakes can propagate themselves pretty remarkably into bigger problems. Not to mention all the extra targeting means more to process, taking at least a little concentration away from other things.

    No1 is saying it can't be done and can't be done very well, but it's definitely not the best way, and if ur a min/maxer like myself, you want to master the best method out there presently while continuing to look for even better methods than could improve oneself. But hey, I like to be that guy who can land that heal where 99 out of 100 other healers wouldn't, that's just me tho, and it means caring about things like tenths of a second unfortunately.

    But, come WoD, the healing model is changing, and while reaction time will always be a plus, it's value will definitely not be as high in a more triage-style healing model like we've been told is to come, so that's something to look forward to provided they get it right unlike cata.
    Last edited by Bormes; 2014-04-26 at 08:44 PM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Bormes View Post
    But, come WoD, the healing model is changing, and while reaction time will always be a plus, it's value will definitely not be as high in a more triage-style healing model like we've been told is to come, so that's something to look forward to provided they get it right unlike cata.
    As always though, every extra ms you can squeeze out of your rotation will allow you to use more active mana regen. All be it in Paladin's case its not looking hugely promising so far, but as a general healing stance.

  14. #34
    Mechagnome Bormes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    IL, USA
    Posts
    532
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    As always though, every extra ms you can squeeze out of your rotation will allow you to use more active mana regen. All be it in Paladin's case its not looking hugely promising so far, but as a general healing stance.
    Of course, like i said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bormes View Post
    while reaction time will always be a plus
    that's why I didn't say it would not be important, just less in the future, and also my statement was in reference to the two paragraphs i wrote prior on target-change healing vs mouseover healing, not active regen. Your active regen capabilities shouldn't be affected by which of those two types of healing styles u use, provided you know how to use a focus target. Regardless tho, I'm on ur side, I believe mouseover healing to be superior, I was just noting it will be less crucial in the potential future healing model.
    Last edited by Bormes; 2014-04-26 at 10:14 PM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Bormes View Post
    that's why I didn't say it would not be important, just less in the future, and also my statement was in reference to the two paragraphs i wrote prior on target-change healing vs mouseover healing, not active regen. Your active regen capabilities shouldn't be affected by which of those two types of healing styles u use, provided you know how to use a focus target. Regardless tho, I'm on ur side, I believe mouseover healing to be superior, I was just noting it will be less crucial in the potential future healing model.
    Yeah, I was mainly expanding on your point for the purpose of clarity. Although it'll be much easier to see poor play-style choices if the mana bar shows it, from the active regen shortfalls.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Bormes View Post
    GCD could be nearing 1 sec with haste, even 1/10 of a second can make a difference in getting that heal off that would otherwise kill someone.
    That is exactly why it doesn't matter if you use mouse over macros. In your example, you are just standing there, not casting anything, instants or otherwise. You are just waiting for someone to take damage before you heal. In that cast the 1/10th of a second that mouse over gives you does matter.

    In reality, you are always casting, you are always limited by the GCD (unless you're bad) and no matter how much haste you get, you can't reduce the GCD to the levels where mousing over or not would make the difference.
    There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.

  17. #37
    Why is there a discussion about healing in WoD here? Does it matter? Some people act as if raid will be magically not at 100% all the times and everyone will be around the same % without any spikes because Blizzard said so. You know that they make promises to fix healing every expansion, right? There will always be people taking more damage(soaking damage for example) so saying extra reaction time is not valuable is just...wrong!

    Another thing.. And this has nothing to do with actually casting the healing spells. I give you protectors fight as an example. Granted, the fight is a joke at any level, but consider the situation when you need to dispel and you need to do that fast. My dispel is actually bound to a right click, so dispelling people by moving a mouse over the frame and just right clicking is godly!

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilan View Post
    #showtooltip
    /cast [@mouseover, exists, noharm][@target, exists, noharm] Divine Radiance; Divine Radiance
    I use exact same macros for all my healing spells for years now. I pair it with Clique (left click - holy shock, right click - dispel, ctrl+left - hand of freedom, ctrl+right - bop, alt+left - hand of salvation, alt+right - hand of sacrifice, shift+left - select target, shift+right - open menu)

    Works great in both PvE and especially in PvP. Lets me keep enemies targeted at all times to ensure I don't miss cc, interrupt flag cap etc.

    You could arrange it other way around I guess (mouse over for harmful spells) but I persnally dislike that becuase in PvP there is usually a lot of enemy frames around (eg. team fight vs. Mage, Hunter and Boomie - 3 treants, 3 images and the entire London zoo).
    Last edited by mezmer1411; 2014-04-28 at 08:17 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •