View Poll Results: Which position do you favor?

Voters
389. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hobby Lobby should not be forced to pay for health care that they oppose on religious grounds.

    78 20.05%
  • The law should apply equally to everyone.

    303 77.89%
  • Other, more nuanced opinion (post and I will add options).

    8 2.06%
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  1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by oujosh29 View Post
    Ok I'm not sure what you mean. Do you really think that DC can design a reform that fits completely different states like California and texas in one bill? that the same kind of reform would work for both? what about north dakota and florida? Our state are different for a reason, people can vote for their feet and decide which state laws they want to live under. The federal government shouldn't try to force a one size fits all solution on all the states.
    I don't see a great reason why a nation can't provide basic healthcare. Being geographically large doesn't seem an obstacle for Canada, or at least one that's insurmountable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Real freedom only exists under a system where unavoidable medical expenses threaten to bankrupt people for being born into an increasingly permanent underclass.
    Hell, one doesn't even have to be in such an underclass to be threatened by our current healthcare system. I think I'm probably actually more underinsured than the average really poor person at present. It's a calculated risk on my part, which one could argue is a bad decision, but it's bizarre that it's a decision I have to (get to?) make at all.

  2. #602
    The Insane smrund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oujosh29 View Post
    Its getting further and further away is the problem. A city government knows how to handle their city better than a bunch of politicians a thousand miles away having lunch with lobbyists.
    It's not like there aren't lobbyists in my town, but whether the guys at home know what to do better than the guys far away is not as cut and dry as "distance increases knowledge". While that can be true, it can also be a "forest for the trees" issue. When you're in the city, it's easy to focus on fixing a single problem and miss the fact that there are dozens of problems affecting the entire city.

    The people up top should be better at handling the BIG THINGS, the things that affect the country as a whole. Health care is not a "local issue", it's a national issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    People in cars cause accidents. Accidents in cars cause people.
    Sometimes life gives you lemons, other times life gives you boobies. Life is always better with more boobies.
    Blizzard removed my subscription from WoD's features, it'll be added sometime later.
    And thus I give you: MALE contraception!

  3. #603
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    What evidence is there for this assertion? Many states have had crippling levels of poverty for a century.


    And when they fail to adequately work on their own, we have a federal government. We're not a confederacy.
    And states aren't just names. We have states for a reason with a federal government that's suppose to have a limited role. One of the problems we have is the federal government has been getting in the way on everything so its not fair to blame the states for all their failures.

  4. #604
    Quote Originally Posted by oujosh29 View Post
    And states aren't just names. We have states for a reason with a federal government that's suppose to have a limited role. One of the problems we have is the federal government has been getting in the way on everything so its not fair to blame the states for all their failures.
    We had a court case over this. Move on. Also blaming the federal government for states being shit holes is a god damn joke when those states get more money from the feds than they pay in taxes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  5. #605
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    It's not like there aren't lobbyists in my town, but whether the guys at home know what to do better than the guys far away is not as cut and dry as "distance increases knowledge". While that can be true, it can also be a "forest for the trees" issue. When you're in the city, it's easy to focus on fixing a single problem and miss the fact that there are dozens of problems affecting the entire city.

    The people up top should be better at handling the BIG THINGS, the things that affect the country as a whole. Health care is not a "local issue", it's a national issue.
    I think it should be a state issue, I think money should be block granted back to the states so they can decide what to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    We had a court case over this. Move on. Also blaming the federal government for states being shit holes is a god damn joke when those states get more money from the feds than they pay in taxes.
    Your right I'm more talking about what I think would be, in my opinion, a better approach. But yeah the courts have already ruled its legal and its the reality we live in. But I'm on the forum for discussion not well that's just how it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I don't see a great reason why a nation can't provide basic healthcare. Being geographically large doesn't seem an obstacle for Canada, or at least one that's insurmountable.

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    Hell, one doesn't even have to be in such an underclass to be threatened by our current healthcare system. I think I'm probably actually more underinsured than the average really poor person at present. It's a calculated risk on my part, which one could argue is a bad decision, but it's bizarre that it's a decision I have to (get to?) make at all.
    You really can't compare Canada to America. Canada may be a huge country but its population is a fraction of ours.

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by oujosh29 View Post
    You really can't compare Canada to America. Canada may be a huge country but its population is a fraction of ours.
    This is special pleading on its own. Canada is smaller. It is not small.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  7. #607
    Quote Originally Posted by oujosh29 View Post
    You really can't compare Canada to America. Canada may be a huge country but its population is a fraction of ours.
    The excuses, at some point, get kind of tiresome. Japan's right around half our size and does fine with a socialized system.

  8. #608
    What an idiotic case.

    Welcome to having an actual healthcare system America. Maybe the rest of the world can give you some tips, considering we've had it since before living memory.

    P.S. I strongly object to exemptions to anything based on religion. Religion is just an opinion, it should not be granted special favours that a personal opinion is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gheld View Post
    Actually this is kind of exciting.

    Theoretically all of the language is in place for the SCOTUS to rule that universal access to health care is a human right.
    Unlikely given the current bench.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oujosh29 View Post
    You really can't compare Canada to America. Canada may be a huge country but its population is a fraction of ours.
    Hardly relevant, larger population makes healthcare more expensive but it also provides a larger taxbase to pay for it. The US has a higher GDP per capita than Canada as well, so you're actually better positioned to afford quality healthcare. You just don't.

    And in terms of geographical size, lower population density over the same landmass means again, America is better positioned than Canada.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  9. #609
    Quote Originally Posted by Eviscero View Post
    Yes, because believing that the only reason people should have sex is for procreation is archaic, closed-minded, dangerous, anti-science, anti-society, fear-based nonsense.
    Its also close minded to think that religious freedom isn't important

  10. #610
    Pit Lord Packers01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by satimy View Post
    Its also close minded to think that religious freedom isn't important
    What religious freedom is being violated here?
    Everyone's an atheist, some people just take it one god further.


    You can't kill a debt collector and you shouldn't kill a child-Mall Security

  11. #611
    Quote Originally Posted by satimy View Post
    Its also close minded to think that religious freedom isn't important
    The only way religious freedom is an issue here is if you think corporations have it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  12. #612
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by satimy View Post
    Its also close minded to think that religious freedom isn't important
    Religious freedom isn't being infringed here. If anything Hobby Lobby is pushing their own.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...htsongg/simple https://twitter.com/Aeluron1989

  13. #613
    Quote Originally Posted by lakers01 View Post
    What religious freedom is being violated here?
    Im not sure that it is, im referring to that posters statement

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Religious freedom isn't being infringed here. If anything Hobby Lobby is pushing their own.
    No Sotomayor basically said that you still have the right to decline contraceptives but you have to pay a tax to do so. Thats a pretty scary thought, but I guess it happens everyday.

  14. #614
    Quote Originally Posted by satimy View Post
    No Sotomayor basically said that you still have the right to decline contraceptives but you have to pay a tax to do so. Thats a pretty scary thought, but I guess it happens everyday.
    Much like I can decline to kill Iraqis, but I have to pay for others to do it with my taxes.
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.

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  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by satimy View Post
    Im not sure that it is, im referring to that posters statement
    I also think it's interesting the way more NFL teams are shifting to base nickel packages.

    Oh, wait, we're not just doing non-sequiturs? My bad.

  16. #616
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oujosh29 View Post
    You really can't compare Canada to America. Canada may be a huge country but its population is a fraction of ours.
    This is total nonsense. The two are highly comparable. Yes, Canada's population is about 1/10th of America's, but that doesn't mean anything. Particularly since the Canadian system is implemented and managed provincially, with federal regulations mandating how those provincial systems have to run in terms of care provided and so on (so there's consistency of care between provinces).

    And even then, it's just scaling. These systems scale up (or down) just fine. There's a point you can't efficiently drop under, because certain pieces of equipment are expensive and rarely-used enough to require a certain population level to make them worth buying, but once you're over that level, there's no insurmountable problem with applying the system to a larger population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by satimy View Post
    Its also close minded to think that religious freedom isn't important
    The issue is primarily that religious freedom is important.

    Namely, the freedom, as an individual, to not be forced to abide by someone else's religious rules.

    Hobby Lobby isn't arguing for religious freedoms. They're arguing for the authority to infringe upon the religious freedom of their employees.

  17. #617
    Quote Originally Posted by Kujako View Post
    Much like I can decline to kill Iraqis, but I have to pay for others to do it with my taxes.
    Well when you put it that way Obamacare is a lot like Iraq, a mistake. Less innocent people will die though. I don't think you should celebrate it though.

  18. #618
    Quote Originally Posted by satimy View Post
    Well when you put it that way Obamacare is a lot like Iraq...
    Right. A lot. Definitely.

  19. #619
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    This is total nonsense. The two are highly comparable. Yes, Canada's population is about 1/10th of America's, but that doesn't mean anything. Particularly since the Canadian system is implemented and managed provincially, with federal regulations mandating how those provincial systems have to run in terms of care provided and so on (so there's consistency of care between provinces).

    And even then, it's just scaling. These systems scale up (or down) just fine. There's a point you can't efficiently drop under, because certain pieces of equipment are expensive and rarely-used enough to require a certain population level to make them worth buying, but once you're over that level, there's no insurmountable problem with applying the system to a larger population.

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    The issue is primarily that religious freedom is important.

    Namely, the freedom, as an individual, to not be forced to abide by someone else's religious rules.

    Hobby Lobby isn't arguing for religious freedoms. They're arguing for the authority to infringe upon the religious freedom of their employees.

    Should a catholic school have to hire an atheist teacher? Again I'm not even really on the side of the Christian people, but theres plenty of people on this forum that would love any law that would oppress them because of the minority dickhead Christians that act like pricks.

  20. #620
    Quote Originally Posted by satimy View Post
    Should a catholic school have to hire an atheist teacher? Again I'm not even really on the side of the Christian people, but theres plenty of people on this forum that would love any law that would oppress them because of the minority dickhead Christians that act like pricks.
    Hobby Lobby isn't a religious institution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

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