It's Supreme Court day! Hobby Lobby VS Obamacare.

[Felya]

If Hobby Lobby wins, it'll have to be a very narrow ruling. The fact is that if a company can ignore laws that violate their religious beliefs as a wide ruling... then meat factories owned by religious owners could ignore the FDA, additional medical procedures like transplants/etc could be avoided... all but holistic medical coverage for some companies.

However the court rules, the conservative justices will likely be trying any means possible to find a way to rule exceptionally narrow and convince the swing justice(s) that such a narrow ruling is legal fitting. It'll be shoving a square into the circle hole for the sake of their personal objects to birth control rather than their views of the law.

Corporations are people my friend...

[oujosh29]

Giving paper entities religious rights is game over.

Not really. I think too many people have too much faith in the goverment and not enough in people. Let companies decide what plans they want. If their awful no one will work for them. Their competitors will get the advantage and run them out of business.

[Halicia]

This isn't a family, it's a lobby and a corporation, who's whole point for existance is that they are not the family. Corporations are not people, regardless of who owns them. Does your pillow share your faith? Which inanimate objects have faith?

Even if they were a family, its absurd to claim that they are being 'forced' to do this, when they are specifically being given the option to opt out of it.

If everyone could choose EXACTLY what was covered by everyone else's health insurance, it would completely defeat the purpose of distributing the risk & costs via insurance.

In fact, its probably more in Hobby Lobby's favor that obamacare exists, since it is furthering the separation between employment and healthcare by pushing government plans for the individual.

I'm generally in defense of freedom of religion and personal faith, but this isn't personal faith. This a company capitalizing on political turmoil to try and remove the ability of its employees to make deeply personal decisions about their health and sex life.

Not really. I think too many people have too much faith in the goverment and not enough in people. Let companies decide what plans they want. If their awful no one will work for them. Their competitors will get the advantage and run them out of business.

HOBBY LOBBY HAS THE CHOICE. They simply refuse to follow it. Its like going into McDonalds and complaining that the Big Mac has meat in it. They show you they have a salad... or a veggie burger... but you continue to pout and say NO I WANT THE BIG MAC, BUT WITH NO MEAT!

[Symphonic]

If Hobby Lobby wins, it'll have to be a very narrow ruling. The fact is that if a company can ignore laws that violate their religious beliefs as a wide ruling... then meat factories owned by religious owners could ignore the FDA, additional medical procedures like transplants/etc could be avoided... all but holistic medical coverage for some companies.

However the court rules, the conservative justices will likely be trying any means possible to find a way to rule exceptionally narrow and convince the swing justice(s) that such a narrow ruling is legal fitting. It'll be shoving a square into the circle hole for the sake of their personal objects to birth control rather than their views of the law.

Religion aside, doesn't free speech apply to everyone? It doesn't matter why the object to certain things, that is what free speech is all about. Not just when the government agrees with their motivations.

[Wells]

Not really. I think too many people have too much faith in the goverment and not enough in people. Let companies decide what plans they want. If their awful no one will work for them. Their competitors will get the advantage and run them out of business.

This isn't just about health care. This ruling would give corporations grounds to get out of almost any government regulation they wanted.

And your claim is observably false.

- - - Updated - - -

Worth pointing out that Hobby Lobby's insurance covered this stuff until Obamacare said it had to. Its clearly a political move on their part.

[Kujako]

Corporations are people my friend...

Which makes Mitt Romney a slave owner.

[Felya]

Not really. I think too many people have too much faith in the goverment and not enough in people. Let companies decide what plans they want. If their awful no one will work for them. Their competitors will get the advantage and run them out of business.

Corporstions are free to provide conditions that are above the minimum government regulation. How many do? The point of business is not your welfare, but profit.

[THE Bigzoman]

A few idiot Mom & Pop stores do it all the time. It's just not legally or financially prudent.

Which is kind of why I think it's dumb to say to an expanding business "well, you don't have to incorporate."

[Symphonic]

Yeah, I don't understand why people feel they can't just make the purchase on their own if they want to have blood transfusions and their employer doesn't cover them.

I agree. Actually, if I felt strongly about blood transfusions and I interviewed for a job and while looking at their health plan saw that blood transfusions weren't covered, I would not accept the job. Simple. Easy.

[Wells]

Which is kind of why I think it's dumb to say to an expanding business "well, you don't have to incorporate."

I don't see how incorporating being the best financial decision most of the time is relevant here.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree. Actually, if I felt strongly about blood transfusions and I interviewed for a job and while looking at their health plan saw that blood transfusions weren't covered, I would not accept the job. Simple. Easy.

Because everyone, especially low wage workers, have that luxury.

[Symphonic]

Because everyone, especially low wage workers, have that luxury.

Yes, even more-so, probably, than people who make more money. Low-wage work is in abundance. I see signs at every fast food place looking for people to work. That argument won't work.

Also, a little tidbit:

“Well, what if a Scientologist/Jehovah’s Witness/Whoever doesn’t want to provide health insurance that covers antibiotics, or blood transfusions, or whatever, due to their religious beliefs?”

Answer: Then that is their right. See, you can’t back me into a corner with this liberty thing. I’m not afraid to take my convictions to whatever extreme and unlikely conclusion you can conjure.

Now, it’s certainly ludicrous to compare contraceptives and Morning After Pills to antibiotics or blood transfusions, but go right ahead. The basis of my argument is NOT my own personal views on birth control. My basis is liberty, the constitution, and personal responsibility. If you choose to work for a Scientologist, you agree to play by the Scientologist’s rules, or else make other arrangements.

Pro tip: review a company’s health coverage package BEFORE YOU TAKE THE JOB. Don’t like it? Doesn’t work for you? GET A DIFFERENT JOB. Or resign yourself to obtaining your medication through some other avenue.

Simple, isn’t it?

[usiris]

Religion aside, doesn't free speech apply to everyone? It doesn't matter why the object to certain things, that is what free speech is all about. Not just when the government agrees with their motivations.

When we open that line, we get crap like citizens united...which has been a whole heap of good.

Corporations are not people, and should never be classified as such.

[Wells]

Yes, even more-so, probably, than people who make more money. Low-wage work is in abundance. I see signs at every fast food place looking for people to work. That argument won't work.

This is a joke right?

[cutterx2202]

In my opinion? Yes, so long as it is part of the law.

It does not matter what law is passed. This is pretty cut and dry win for Hobby Lobby. They are not telling people what they can and can't do, as the employee is always able to get health insurance on their own that covers whatever they want. It is a case of the owners being forced to give THEIR money to a practice against their religion and humanity. The constitution cannot be trumped by a law.

[Wells]

“Well, what if a Scientologist/Jehovah’s Witness/Whoever doesn’t want to provide health insurance that covers antibiotics, or blood transfusions, or whatever, due to their religious beliefs?”

Corporations can't be a Scientologist/Jehovah’s Witness/Whoever

- - - Updated - - -

It does not matter what law is passed. This is pretty cut and dry win for Hobby Lobby. They are not telling people what they can and can't do, as the employee is always able to get health insurance on their own that covers whatever they want. It is a case of the owners being forced to give THEIR money to a practice against their religion and humanity. The constitution cannot be trumped by a law.

Not their money. The corporations money.

[Kujako]

It does not matter what law is passed. This is pretty cut and dry win for Hobby Lobby. They are not telling people what they can and can't do, as the employee is always able to get health insurance on their own that covers whatever they want. It is a case of the owners being forced to give THEIR money to a practice against their religion and humanity. The constitution cannot be trumped by a law.

Hobby Lobby is saying that the law doesn't apply to them, because a corporation has religious freedom. Separate out your dislike for Obamacare and/or contraceptives and think that through.

[oujosh29]

Even if they were a family, its absurd to claim that they are being 'forced' to do this, when they are specifically being given the option to opt out of it.

If everyone could choose EXACTLY what was covered by everyone else's health insurance, it would completely defeat the purpose of distributing the risk & costs via insurance.

In fact, its probably more in Hobby Lobby's favor that obamacare exists, since it is furthering the separation between employment and healthcare by pushing government plans for the individual.

I'm generally in defense of freedom of religion and personal faith, but this isn't personal faith. This a company capitalizing on political turmoil to try and remove the ability of its employees to make deeply personal decisions about their health and sex life.



HOBBY LOBBY HAS THE CHOICE. They simply refuse to follow it. Its like going into McDonalds and complaining that the Big Mac has meat in it. They show you they have a salad... or a veggie burger... but you continue to pout and say NO I WANT THE BIG MAC, BUT WITH NO MEAT!

Ugh this again. Seriously. Hobby Lobby says hey this is what we offer, do you want it? The employees says yes. And your trying to say thats "oppresives"? Again that doesn't mean what you think it means. And this is absolutely about personel faith. The family that owns Hobby Lobby aren't Christians who show up only on easter and christmas. They are very religious and are up front about it. The employee has the choice! Stop forcing YOUR beliefs on Hobby Lobby. And the opt out isn't an opt out, its Hobby Lobby asking for a waiver where the insurance would directly pay for the birth control. But Hobby Lobby would still be paying for it because their plans wouldn't be discounted for the pill, the goverment is telling them to shut up and just "pretend" they aren't paying for it. Believe it or not some people believe principals or more important than profits.

[Symphonic]

Corporations can't be a Scientologist/Jehovah’s Witness/Whoever

But corporations are run by people who surely share those beliefs. If I work for a corporation whose owners are Jehovah's Witnesses, shouldn't they be able to choose what health care coverage their company provides? I don't see anything wrong with letting companies decide what health plan they OFFER, and their employees either ACCEPT or DECLINE it. That is FREEDOM!

[Wells]

A friend wrote this the other day, seems worth repeating here:

The law Hobby Lobby is hiding behind, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) provides, ""government shall not substantially burden a person's exercise of religion even if the burden results from a rule of general applicability, except as provided in subsection (b)" (I provide section (b) below). Note, RFRA applies to persons, not secular corporations. As the DC Circuit provided in Gilardi v. United States HHS, this protection does not extend to secular corporations, as the owners "have voluntarily chosen to capitalize on labor, they have agreed to accept certain limitations on their conduct that arise from the Government's compelling interest in securing the safety and welfare of their employees." Moreover, *even if* the Supreme Court chose to extend RFRA to corporations (which would truly be an absurd holding), RFRA also provides (in section (b)) that so long as the "the burden to the person is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest, and is the least restrictive means of of furthering that compelling governmental interest," such religious freedom may be restricted. Indeed, the state has a compelling interest in protecting the private healthcare decisions of women, and ensuring they have AFFORDABLE access to the medications they need.

- - - Updated - - -

But corporations are run by people who surely share those beliefs.

So? They created a new entity. Its that entity's money. And who's beliefs will we use in this criteria? The CEO's? The stock holders? The founders?

- - - Updated - - -

Ugh this again. Seriously. Hobby Lobby says hey this is what we offer, do you want it? The employees says yes. And your trying to say thats "oppresives"? Again that doesn't mean what you think it means. And this is absolutely about personel faith. The family that owns Hobby Lobby aren't Christians who show up only on easter and christmas. They are very religious and are up front about it. The employee has the choice! Stop forcing YOUR beliefs on Hobby Lobby. And the opt out isn't an opt out, its Hobby Lobby asking for a waiver where the insurance would directly pay for the birth control. But Hobby Lobby would still be paying for it because their plans wouldn't be discounted for the pill, the goverment is telling them to shut up and just "pretend" they aren't paying for it. Believe it or not some people believe principals or more important than profits.

Stop confusing the owners with the legal entity that is Hobby Lobby. You're failing at the most fundamental aspects of corporate law.

[cutterx2202]

A little increased economic freedom thanks to a, as you put it, bullshit excuse is certainly more important than basic equality and personal liberty of the many.

No one will lose any equality or liberty with siding with Hobby Lobby. Health insurance that includes those items is ALWAYS available to ANYONE outside of work-supplemented.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait...what?

There's actually people trying to argue that religious freedom is grounds to deny women access to health care ?

Free speech: you get what you pay for.

No one is or can deny women specialized health care. It's still available, just not employer funded/aided.