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  1. #201
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    they have already stated that if not lfr harder content would probably be alreay scrapped or u would have 7-8 bosses content like FL or DS - they just couldnt justify to shareholders spending so much $$$$ on content that nearly nobody touched - u should be thankfull to lfr cause thx to it u can enjoy 14-16 bosses tiers.
    I'm not sure you've been reading what I've been typing.

    I don't want big tiers of hard bosses. I'm not "hating" on LFR because I believe "no scrubz in raidz lol", I'm saying that it's contributing to a very damaging development cycle; one that puts raids ahead of everything else or, in other words, putting a tiny percentage of players above the overwhelming majority.

    A six boss raid tier is fine with me (preferable, in fact), if meaningful dungeon content is where the development time then goes.

    Also:

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Also, I do not buy that reasoning to be honest. It feels like a cop out answer by blizzard to make people happy. Just because blizzard says somethig does not mean it is entirely accurate.
    I've been arguing this exact point since Blizzard first said it. There's simply no evidence to suggest that LFR means "big raids", even if that was what the game needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smudge View Post
    I think many players do enjoy touring the large group content, but very, very few of them are interested in playing in a manner that allows them to clear even normal difficulty.
    I think those players would enjoy content that they can contribute to the completion of. You can be wonderful at this game, and still flunk an LFR group because of 24 people whose ability you simply can't account for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smudge View Post
    It really sounds hollow to me that people use terms like "bad," "lazy," "retard" to characterize players who perform poorly in large group content and/or find it uninteresting. It's a damn game. Every minute you spend in it is a self-indulgent waste of life. You should be enjoying that time, and allowing it to be enjoyable for others while you're at it.
    I agree with every word, but it's the attitude that raiding promotes.

    Exclusivity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smudge View Post
    There are things that when you convince reluctant people to try, they often go "ah hell, that's cool, I'm gonna do this some more!" But organized raiding is not one of those things. It puts most players who have tried it off. Some immediately, some after a couple of years. A few persist at it for longer. It puzzles me that Blizzard continues to build the game around it. Maybe with GC and his most hardcore minions gone, and more of them sure to follow, the game -- which I believe could continue to be successful for a very long time for reasons in spite of raiding -- will turn its back on raiding and instead find something else "epic" that suits more people. Something that's more exciting and addictive than raging nerds on vent.
    What a great comment.

    Would you mind me using it as a signature?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    A six boss raid tier is fine with me (preferable, in fact)
    Hmm. I feel bad because I have a post in limbo that was supposed to go out to you a few pages back, but I have been so busy have not had time to complete it and got tests and stuff today.

    Anyways. The thing with a shorter boss tier as it allows for higher quality. What is currently bottlenecking raids is design. By having a smaller tier, the bosses and raid can have a more unique look, and the boss development team can spend longer time developing each boss making them more interesting. 6 great bosses over 14 meh bosses any day.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I've been arguing this exact point since Blizzard first said it. There's simply no evidence to suggest that LFR means "big raids", even if that was what the game needed.
    Too many people live under the illusion that customer support is there for the customer. Customer support is there to make the customer insert more money into the product / company, the companies do not have it out of the kindness in their hearts. It is directly to benefit the companies, and as such they will say whatever generates the most money to the company. Which is not always the truth.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I agree with every word, but it's the attitude that raiding promotes.

    Exclusivity.
    Gotta say I disagree while I agree a bit. It is not raiding that promotes that attitude, it is team activity. You make it sounds like this is something unique for raiding. In any team activity, people want to play with people with equal interest and skill. Team activities are by nature exclusive, be that football, raiding or joining grannys nitting team. It is nothing weird in it at all. People do not want to be dragged down in the interest by people worse than them in whatever said thing is. A team is only as strong as it weakest links. As such, they want to do said activity with people as good as or better than themselves. That might be called exclusivity, but I would just call it nature and natural selection.

    When I used to practice team sports such as football, handball or basket, whatever basically. I did not care if some kid completely sucked at playing that sport in his own backyard. But if that kid was playing on my team, not even being interested in what we were doing, payed no attention to becoming a better player, were just bad in general and dragged the entire team down to losses, then he would be called bad, lazy and such. Since in contrast to the rest of the team, he was bad and lazy. Again, I dont think that is exclusivity.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Anyways. The thing with a shorter boss tier as it allows for higher quality. What is currently bottlenecking raids is design. By having a smaller tier, the bosses and raid can have a more unique look, and the boss development team can spend longer time developing each boss making them more interesting. 6 great bosses over 14 meh bosses any day.
    Whole lot of BS. Remember Firelands? Those bosses sucked except for Ragnaros. Especially Rhyolith.

    Crusader's Colliseum, 5 boss raid most of them bad and lazy.

    Dragon Soul, laziest raid Blizzard has ever created.


    One of my favourite tiers was Tier 11, which had 13? bosses and some of my favourites ever like Al'Akir, Ascendant Council, Omnotron, Cho'gall.

    Ulduar had 14 and was the most brilliant raid tier released ever.

  4. #204
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    Whole lot of BS. Remember Firelands? Those bosses sucked except for Ragnaros. Especially Rhyolith.
    What bosses?

    Oh, yeah, the ones I saw the week before DS. 14 overexposed bosses over 6 unseen bosses any day.
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  5. #205
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    OP this is just what happens when you do lfr without enough overgeared players to carry the raid. The vast influx of new 90s caused your lfr to be completely filled with new and inexperienced players.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    I don't think I know what the acronym "tsg" is. It's not RBG's or Arena, random battlegrounds, or any form of dungeon or raid that I can think of. What does it mean?

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Again, I dont think that is exclusivity.
    No, it's just inbred imanassholeivity.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Smudge View Post
    No, it's just inbred imanassholeivity.
    A.k.a. human nature. Welcome to the real world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    Whole lot of BS. Remember Firelands? Those bosses sucked except for Ragnaros. Especially Rhyolith.

    Crusader's Colliseum, 5 boss raid most of them bad and lazy.

    Dragon Soul, laziest raid Blizzard has ever created.


    One of my favourite tiers was Tier 11, which had 13? bosses and some of my favourites ever like Al'Akir, Ascendant Council, Omnotron, Cho'gall.

    Ulduar had 14 and was the most brilliant raid tier released ever.
    I never said Firelands was good. I said that I would prefer fewer good bosses over more bad bosses any day. T11 is imo the best raiding tier ever in terms of bosses, but ulduar still take my #1 spot due the the trash, voice and general feeling over the raid.

    ToC bosses also were not that bad. I just think the setting was bad combined with quad reset. The bosses were actually quite good. But they were a lot of experiments. They were trying out a lot of new things, some worked some didnt. I think that the ToC bosses was actually brilliant fights a few of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    What bosses?

    Oh, yeah, the ones I saw the week before DS. 14 overexposed bosses over 6 unseen bosses any day.
    6 Mona Lisas over 14 paintings my dog "painted" by tipping over a can of paint over some paper sheats any day.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  8. #208
    Anyways. The thing with a shorter boss tier as it allows for higher quality. What is currently bottlenecking raids is design. By having a smaller tier, the bosses and raid can have a more unique look, and the boss development team can spend longer time developing each boss making them more interesting. 6 great bosses over 14 meh bosses any day.
    I agree with Nitros - small tiers aren't always good. While I *did* like Firelands quite a bit, the rest of his examples are pretty spot on (ToC, DS versus Ulduar and T11). And if you consider the current tier you have to admit that despite people whining about it being old, boring, too long and whatnot, its quality is quite high. Fights are varied in terms of design, there's ample challenge, boss tuning is very good in comparison to previous tiers.

    A problem you always get with a small (6-8 boss) tier is that progress ends quickly, either because you've killed all 6 and have nothing to do, or you reach a brick wall boss you will NEVER kill (happened to my old guild with Ragnaros hc). Either way, once you reach that point, you won't have too much fun, either because you farm everything on reset night, or because your guild falls apart. More bosses give more variety and you have more to do - ofc I'm speaking about guilds that take months to clear a tier, not Method.

    And frankly, I don't really believe the dichotomy between getting larger tiers and getting some mid-xpac dungeons is a correct one. No new dungeons in MoP was a design decision, they thought more scenarios and other crap would be enough. If they wanted to, they could've reused some raid assets and put together a dungeon or three. If it came at the expense of 1-2 bosses that'd be acceptable. But slashing raid tiers by more than half and half-assing the raids just to make more 5-mans, which are fresh the first few times, but after that you farm them with your eyes closed? We already saw that in Cata's last tier. And it was shit.

  9. #209
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    What bosses?

    Oh, yeah, the ones I saw the week before DS. 14 overexposed bosses over 6 unseen bosses any day.
    See, these are the types of comment that interest me.

    What do you mean by "unseen"? What was it about Firelands that caused you to only see it the week before Dragon Soul?

    It had a daily questing area with personal progression, there was the quest chain with Thrall, and there was the Hyjal quest line that introduced the zone as well as the creation of the Druids of the Flame. It was a very solo/new/casual friendly patch, with the exception of the boss tuning, and even had a legendary item put into it. It was what a patch should be.

    My problem with Firelands was purely that it was just one, boring, fiery zone, Rhyolith was one of the worst bosses ever designed and heroic Ragnaros was grossly overtuned.
    Last edited by The Caretaker; 2014-04-06 at 11:07 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    My problem with Firelands was purely that it was just one, boring, fiery zone, Rhyolith was one of the worst bosses ever designed and heroic Ragnaros was grossly overtuned.
    Can the final heroic boss of a raid be overtuned? :P It was not unkillable.

    The bigger problem was that there were no ramp up. The first 6 heroics were just a just. When all other heroics are that easy, ofc he will appear to be difficult. Imagine SoO being a 7 boss raid with Garrosh H right after Iron Juggernaut.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #211
    Boosted characters only show how ignorant a player is. If a character is boosted and played well, the person behind it probably knows what they're doing in general. They likely have done some research regarding their class and will play at a relatively decent skill-level. Those that boost and suck like we've all seen? They probably sucked at their last class anyway and will likely continue to do so as they get more and more characters.

  12. #212
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Can the final heroic boss of a raid be overtuned? :P It was not unkillable.

    The bigger problem was that there were no ramp up. The first 6 heroics were just a just. When all other heroics are that easy, ofc he will appear to be difficult. Imagine SoO being a 7 boss raid with Garrosh H right after Iron Juggernaut.
    Yeah, it was overcooked. I take your point about ramp-up (particularly with Staghelm being so comparatively easy), but that doesn't change the fact that Ragnaros was far harder than he needed to be. Hell, Blizzard just let people cheat the Geyser mechanic outside of how it was intended to work because it was so difficult; and even that didn't stop it from wrecking countless guilds before the big nerfs went in and people started to kill it.

    It's a shame, really, because I thought the normal version was what a final boss should be like for its place in progression.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  13. #213
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post


    Gotta say I disagree while I agree a bit. It is not raiding that promotes that attitude, it is team activity. You make it sounds like this is something unique for raiding. In any team activity, people want to play with people with equal interest and skill. Team activities are by nature exclusive, be that football, raiding or joining grannys nitting team. It is nothing weird in it at all. People do not want to be dragged down in the interest by people worse than them in whatever said thing is. A team is only as strong as it weakest links. As such, they want to do said activity with people as good as or better than themselves. That might be called exclusivity, but I would just call it nature and natural selection.

    When I used to practice team sports such as football, handball or basket, whatever basically. I did not care if some kid completely sucked at playing that sport in his own backyard. But if that kid was playing on my team, not even being interested in what we were doing, payed no attention to becoming a better player, were just bad in general and dragged the entire team down to losses, then he would be called bad, lazy and such. Since in contrast to the rest of the team, he was bad and lazy. Again, I dont think that is exclusivity.
    This is true for competitive activity but very far from true about people in general when they are doing things just socially (i.e. the vast bulk of wow players). Do most people playing wow raid in a competetive sense? Nope.

    Is LFR competitive raiding? Nope.

    The main issue in wows community is people engaged in a competitive endeavour extrapolating their mindset to everyone and everything else, which makes interactions toxic. The average wower who is just wandering around killing pretty dragons doesn't give a fuck what you think about their performance while the average competitive raider has to have an exclusionary mindset to get stuff done while raiding competitively raiding - the issues arise when you take that mindset beyond where it's appropriate.

    This is true for both sides. You can't expect heroic raiding boss kills while not giving a shit and it's equally as mad to expect casual gamers who will never really give a shit to bend to the hardcore raiding mindset. Because casual gamers have the cash, they always win once conflict arises, but it's the hardcore audience who create that conflict. Most players don't want to raid, they never have. Blizzard has shepherded them into it to save (hardcore) raiding. Fuck knows why, you are supposed to listen to your customers.

    Really, the raiders should get on their knees and thank god they still have raids at all and stfu about nerfs. Most players don't want to raid and don't give a fuck, even now it's so easy and all that's left to do.
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  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    This is true for competitive activity but very far from true about people in general when they are doing things just socially (i.e. the vast bulk of wow players). Do most people playing wow raid in a competetive sense? Nope.

    Is LFR competitive raiding? Nope.

    The main issue in wows community is people engaged in a competitive endeavour extrapolating their mindset to everyone and everything else, which makes interactions toxic. The average wower who is just wandering around killing pretty dragons doesn't give a fuck what you think about their performance while the average competitive raider has to have an exclusionary mindset to get stuff done while raiding competitively raiding - the issues arise when you take that mindset beyond where it's appropriate.

    This is true for both sides. You can't expect heroic raiding boss kills while not giving a shit and it's equally as mad to expect casual gamers who will never really give a shit to bend to the hardcore raiding mindset. Because casual gamers have the cash, they always win once conflict arises, but it's the hardcore audience who create that conflict. Most players don't want to raid, they never have. Blizzard has shepherded them into it to save (hardcore) raiding. Fuck knows why, you are supposed to listen to your customers.

    Really, the raiders should get on their knees and thank god they still have raids at all and stfu about nerfs. Most players don't want to raid and don't give a fuck, even now it's so easy and all that's left to do.
    I would disagree. Something does not have to be competetive for this mindset to apply.

    As long as there is there is some sort of loss/victory condition, some sort of challenge, time investment whatever. This will always hold true. Even in LFR. It does not have to be competitive raiding.

    Humans like to win, humans dont like to waste their time. When a person that is beneath them in whatever interest may have wastes their time and causes them to lose, this behaviour is only natural. It does not matter if it is hardcore competitive or not.

    It is not strange the terriby bad and uninterested players that endeavour into group content and waste the time of better players then gets called bad and shitty when they are bad and shitty. It is not something unique to WoW. Try joining a casual soccer game and pick the ball up with your hands, run into the goal post and lay down midfield starting to attempt to make snow angels on the grass. Guess what? The rest of the players would be annoyed by you, even though you have "no interest" or whatever in the game, guess what! The other players do! They would be mad at you for wasting their time and sucking ass not having an interest.

    If you are doing something together with anyone, it does not matter what it is. How casual or hardcore it is. If you have a lot more interest, passion and skill then another person in said group, and that said person is holding your entire group back, wasting time and/or rewards from winning, causing you to lose. You will get tired of said person. Is this a hard concept to grasp?

    The problem in WoW arises when the bottle feeding of uninterested and bad players collides with interested and better players.
    If you want your fairytale world to work, there needs to be a separation of the players actually interested in the game and knows how to play the game, and the bad players that are not interested at all. As long as they are mashed into the same content, there will always be friction. It is simple human nature.

    Sadly, the bad and uninterested players needs to be showered with rewards to keep interested in the game, and need better players to carry them since they perform so badly. So this will probably never happen.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2014-04-07 at 11:02 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  15. #215
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I would disagree. Something does not have to be competetive for this mindset to apply.
    That's not disagreeing because it's what I said. lol I just added that it's not appropriate.
    As long as there is there is some sort of loss/victory condition, some sort of challenge, time investment whatever. This will always hold true. Even in LFR. It does not have to be competitive raiding.
    I can't see much if any evidence for this view. The vast majority of people very obviously don't act this way, that's why theres so many "Waaah no one gives a shit and they are terrible in LFR" threads.
    Humans like to win, humans dont like to waste their time. When a person that is beneath them in whatever interest may have wastes their time and causes them to lose, this behaviour is only natural. It does not matter if it is hardcore competitive or not.
    Some humans are like that, but not very many. See wows hardcore versus don't give a shit playerbase for details. hardcores are say 30-300k people depending how you measure it, and the rest (several million) aren't like that. it's the competitive who are the unusual ones.
    It is not strange the terriby bad and uninterested players that endeavour into group content and waste the time of better players then gets called bad and shitty when they are bad and shitty. It is not something unique to WoW. Try joining a casual soccer game and pick the ball up with your hands, run into the goal post and lay down midfield starting to attempt to make snow angels on the grass. Guess what? The rest of the players would be annoyed by you, even though you have "no interest" or whatever in the game, guess what! The other players do! They would be mad at you for wasting their time and sucking ass not having an interest.
    But most people aren't doing this. Most people when faced with someone pushing for extra effort all round etc will just label them a dipshit and exclude them from their mediocrity. As much as the "elites" move "upwards" they are also pushed out by those who don't care and don't want them around. Imagine if you moved into a really coudn't give a fuck guild and tried to push them up the rankings - how long would you last? No time at all. Exclusionary works both ways and as I point out, the evidence is that people in general don't care.
    If you are doing something together with anyone, it does not matter what it is. How casual or hardcore it is. If you have a lot more interest, passion and skill then another person in said group, and that said person is holding your entire group back, wasting time and/or rewards from winning, causing you to lose. You will get tired of said person. Is this a hard concept to grasp?
    Most people don't do this. Is this undeniable fact hard to grasp? Some people do act in the way you outline, but the evidence is that most people do not.
    The problem in WoW arises when the bottle feeding of uninterested and bad players collides with interested and better players.
    If you want your fairytale world to work, there needs to be a separation of the players actually interested in the game and knows how to play the game, and the bad players that are not interested at all. As long as they are mashed into the same content, there will always be friction. It is simple human nature.
    I agree with this completely. After this agreement it all depends on what you think wow should be - a fantasy land theme park for the majority or a hardcore raiding game. Everyone knows what blizzards shareholders want (easier, more cash), what the majority of the playerbase wants (easier, leave me alone) and what the hardcore raiders want (hardcore raids and fuck the rest of it) blizzard tries to do all these things at the same time and as we know it doesn't work all that well. I think blizz should pick one and stick to it, but I suspect they naturally want hardcore raiding as people but also like to have swimming pools full of money, which leads to the compromised vision etc
    Sadly, the bad and uninterested players needs to be showered with rewards to keep interested in the game, and need better players to carry them since they perform so badly. So this will probably never happen.
    And because blizzard staff naturally incline towards the hardcore raiding mindset themselves they'll never purge the difficulty out of the game in the way that the majority of the playerbase would be more at home with.

    Pisser, isn't it? No one is quite as happy as they could be. Wows still a good game though.
    Last edited by Injin; 2014-04-07 at 12:42 PM.
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  16. #216
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Oh yes, Injins back. Between Injin and Firebert we practically have the Team Rocket of WoW raiding.

    Infracted; Don't post if you have nothing relevant to add to thread.
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2014-04-07 at 04:23 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  17. #217
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    The problem in WoW arises when the bottle feeding of uninterested and bad players collides with interested and better players.
    Yeah, that's the core of the entire community problem in this game. Too many players get in each others way because their demands are different. The raider who wants quick Valour wants in and out of a heroic ASAP, while the newly-dinged toon wants to kill all the bosses for gear. And while it's acceptable to have this issue, to an extent, the fact that Blizzard now shoves everyone into raids has exasperated the issue badly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Sadly, the bad and uninterested players needs to be showered with rewards to keep interested in the game, and need better players to carry them since they perform so badly. So this will probably never happen.
    Again, I don't think that's true and, actually, it encapsulates the divide in the community I'm talking about, while absolving Blizzard of any responsibility. It was Blizzard that decided rewards should be thrown around, it was Blizzard who decided that everything outside of raids would be meaningless, and it was Blizzard who publically blamed the casual or hardcore player base whenever something was done for the benefit of one side or the other.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Orcbert View Post
    People accidentally push Horridon to low while the mobs are up and the War-God drops while adds are still streaming out. Then Horridon starts to get healed by Dinomancers that are up while others are trying to down the war god.
    Back when ToT was current, I was in several groups that killed Horridon LFR during 2nd door. That isn't new.


    Quote Originally Posted by Woodgela View Post
    OP either you haven't played the game enough or you are straight up lying about your LFR experience. It does not matter how good of a player you are you cannot carry a group of retards in LFR. The chances of getting that lucky with decent LFR groups every single time you que are sooooooo slim its not even worth discussing. The fact of the matter is if you haven't had an LFR group that has wiped repeatedly at some stage then you must never play new content when it is new or you are a liar. Even playing at your absolute best your input in LFR is almost completely irrelevant.
    Sure, I've had repeated wipes occasionally the first week or two that new bosses were released, but I also got groups that *DID* one-shot or two-shot each of them early on. I'm still btag friends with my Garalon Tag-team buddies who I met when we two-shot it a couple days after it was released, before the crush and pheremones nerfs. We lost a bunch of people to Durumu's eyebeam my first time on him, but the 8 of us who were left were able to finish him off. Lei Shen took 2 pulls, and Garrosh needed 3. We had a wipe or two on Naz before people would listen to me to stay on adds rather than tunneling, but not 3 hours worth. The most determination stacks I've had is 5, and that's only happened a couple of times. IIRC I logged the early SoO and ToT fights, I can dig them up for you if you don't believe me that groups can handle them with a bit of handholding.

    I catherd groups with newbie tanks and boosted people a lot, and almost all of my runs go smoothly. I explain fights, put up location beacon and kill order markers, use raid warnings, and so forth. Once in a while, I get a group that won't listen, but most are happy to follow my lead. Perhaps all of them would have gone just as smoothly without my input, but that certainly hasn't been my impression from discussing it with other people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    A single character geared from the current normals and played well can generally accomplish about 50% of what is required to succeed in current LFRs. If I queue with two friends in similar gear and with similar skill, we can guarantee success in all but the most difficult LFR fights. One good player can make a world of difference in LFR.
    Adhemar, absolutely! I prefer going with a couple of friends, just because it is more sociable and fun, but even if I queue solo, my groups rarely struggle. I've run into a few groups with super-low DPS, usually they get booted or leave after people call them out on it. Most aren't stellar, but don't have issues with hitting enrage or anything. Usually there's at least a couple of geared people who are able to make it go smoothly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    The only alternative for gearing my ungeared alts is to endlessly farm burdens on timeless isle. Blizzard forces players like me to carry completely clueless players through LFR.
    Well, you can go directly to Flex, especially if you have friends/guildies willing to carry a bit, or even just through trade/openraid/oqueue for some of the "newbie" groups. ToT also is pretty decent for gearing up, either normal or heroic. ToES still has a few useful things to a fresh 90, especially if you haven't farmed gear ahead of time. You can grind dungeons for JP to convert to honor, or PVP. The world bosses (Celestials, Ordos, Oon, and Nalak) are farmable before you hit 90.
    Last edited by Candescently; 2014-04-09 at 03:15 PM.

  19. #219
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    What do you mean by "unseen"? What was it about Firelands that caused you to only see it the week before Dragon Soul?
    Something changed during Cataclysm that killed off PuGs. The only reason I saw Firelands the week before DS was because I was a tank at the end of the patch cycle with barely enough item level for a guild that I knew that had their tank go MIA. Completing the dailies didn't earn you enough item levels to get groups, let alone the achievement. The legendary was quickly completed by 25-mans and the raid just went disused for those that had finished getting staves for all their guild mains.

    Firelands didn't help the situation. Dragon Soul did. Hence why I think that Dragon Soul is a far better raid than Firelands.
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  20. #220
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Something changed during Cataclysm that killed off PuGs.
    It's called "tier 11".

    It absolutely smashed server PuG scenes because it was far harder than what they were used to in WotLK with raids like the Obsidian Sanctum, Naxxramas, Trial of the Crusader, Onyxia's Lair and (of course) Icecrown Citadel. After only a few short weeks, server PuG communities had taken an extraordinary hit because of the tuning of tier 11, and many guild groups with a more social edge also bit the dust.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    The only reason I saw Firelands the week before DS was because I was a tank at the end of the patch cycle with barely enough item level for a guild that I knew that had their tank go MIA. Completing the dailies didn't earn you enough item levels to get groups, let alone the achievement. The legendary was quickly completed by 25-mans and the raid just went disused for those that had finished getting staves for all their guild mains.
    I'm talking about "content" and not "rewards". Personal progression was a good idea, something that was never really expanded upon despite it looking pretty successful on the servers I played on. Also, a lot of your issues are simply a case of your inability to find a group and, honestly, I just can't see how a game designed for lots of people can be built around providing that same experience to those who won't try and make friends.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

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