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  1. #281
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    There are still different levels of it. But nvm.

    You still seem to think this is a recent trend. One mistake and its a raid wipe is not something recent and has been around since a long time ago.
    I think, for casual-attitude groups, even things that one-shot players are enough to cause instant wipes and it's easy to forget those. The reason is because if a healer or tank dies then you can't taunt-swap or heal through raid damage, or if a DPS player dies you won't meet a damage requirement. For high-skill groups, these things can be recovered from; for newer, casual-attitude groups, it's extremely difficult.

    The best fight of the expansion, in my opinion of course, was Lei Shen. He was well designed, the mechanics were relatively obvious and quite clever, and the execution and output required was pretty high but not so bad that it felt insurmountable.

    I'd even go as far as saying it's Hazzikostas' only really-well designed encounter. Scott Mercer was simply better at the job in pretty much every meaningful way, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Ahh but what is a one shot to one group is just a bad recoverable hit to another.
    I think that's usually dictated by skill; good groups recover, casual-attitude groups can't (or will do so significantly less often). Alas, we're really talking about the latter which is why we're all arguing, hoho. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Depending on the fight we will sometimes keep going even if we know we won't down it. Just to get people more practice on the mechanics.
    I think there's a lot to be said for this and, as erstwhile hinted, many of these issues are community-driven rather than by design. We're just at the stage where mechanics are so gimmicky, that a wipe is very soon on the cards when something goes wrong. Lord Rhyolith was a good example of this; if one of your drivers died (and with all the shit going on, it could happen easily), he was in the lava before you had a chance to recover.

    Horrible fight.

    Horrible.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I think, for casual-attitude groups, even things that one-shot players are enough to cause instant wipes and it's easy to forget those. The reason is because if a healer or tank dies then you can't taunt-swap or heal through raid damage, or if a DPS player dies you won't meet a damage requirement. For high-skill groups, these things can be recovered from; for newer, casual-attitude groups, it's extremely difficult.

    The best fight of the expansion, in my opinion of course, was Lei Shen. He was well designed, the mechanics were relatively obvious and quite clever, and the execution and output required was pretty high but not so bad that it felt insurmountable.

    I'd even go as far as saying it's Hazzikostas' only really-well designed encounter. Scott Mercer was simply better at the job in pretty much every meaningful way, IMO.



    I think that's usually dictated by skill; good groups recover, casual-attitude groups can't (or will do so significantly less often). Alas, we're really talking about the latter which is why we're all arguing, hoho. :P
    In either way, this is not a recent trend. It has been the same since WotLK really.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I think that's usually dictated by skill; good groups recover, casual-attitude groups can't (or will do so significantly less often). Alas, we're really talking about the latter which is why we're all arguing, hoho. :P
    Try to refrain from generalising casual-minded groups as bad. I know a ton of casual players that are great at this game. Good groups recover. Bad groups do not. Being hardcore or casual is irrelevant. We have hardcore guilds on our realm that fall into the category that they would not recover, buy by throwing in insane amount of wipes they still get the bosses down.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  3. #283
    The lesson blizzard learned: You almost want strategy to be non-existent in LFR, even something like "kill the adds when they spawn, then attack the boss" is too tricky for people to understand

  4. #284
    Stood in the Fire Pyrophobia's Avatar
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    I beleive blizz are going in the right direction with the Silver Prooving grounds requried for Heroics and they should make GOLD required for LFR

    Further more in WoD there will be a specific place where boosted 90s will be released and will learn their abilities at some slow pace before being pushed into WoD's starting zones wich will help with the 90 boost problem that we have now.
    Blizz unleashed 90's into timless isle hoping they are ppl who know what the isle is about or will get friends to tell them but that got abused by the bloody coin farmers

    So overall it's looking good except they need to add proving groudns gold for LFR or make a quest line that unlocks LFR of some sort .... i have 12 alts and will probably be slightly anoyed to do either 12+ 10 times Prooving grounds (for hybrids you need to do it 2 or even 3 times) or a long quest line but it will be helpfull for everyone later on.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    The dungeon journal isn't useful as a guide to understanding how to kill a boss, it's there to understand individual mechanics entirely. It's not really relevant or helpful to the casual playerbase and klaxxi is an example of that.
    Well I would say it gives some Help, like I did it first time as a Healer this week and read the Journal about whose Essence to pick up and how to use it.

    The Journal does not give guides, however. You have to look up which order you do the Deathwing Platforms in for example or record your logs from various platform orders, then compare them [which is too much work to ask for in a videogame]

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    The hard "one mistake and it's over" style of play is relatively recent, though.

    It also used to be on one or two bosses per instance, not every boss having a few of them. In addition, previous iterations of wow had mechanics that would get an individual one shot, not the whole group - and the group could often carry the mistake.
    Well I think it depends on the philosophy of what one mistake is. So for Example Jin-roth will wipe you if one Orb touches Pool, but each player has several seconds to start moving once the orb appears. Or Ragnaros will wipe you if one Ad touches Hammer, but each ad takes many Seconds to DPS it down or CC it, giving you some room for Error.


    The only thing I dislike are random success chances because of overtuned Fights. Like for Example, Madness of Deathwing is impossible to do Heroic if you progress (For WorldFirst it is impossible numbers wise as normal Mode/old Set Gear does not provide bigger Numbers, and for the others it is impossible because of their low skill) so the only way to bear Enrage when progressing Madness of Deathwing is to be lucky and have Tentacles spawn on top of each other so you can AoE/Spellweve them down.
    Capitalism, Ho!

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandrake View Post
    LFR is for people who don't have the time (or aren't willing to put in the time) to learn how to play their class or the game.

    The more nerfs, the better it is for everyone.
    Dude please >.> a fucking LFR wing takes more time than a full clear on Heroic... don't bring the time argument here. It's bullshit.

  7. #287
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    In either way, this is not a recent trend. It has been the same since WotLK really.
    Individual mechanics, or the volume of them, didn't kill people anywhere near as much throughout WotLK, certainly until the 2nd era of raiding began with heroic modes.

    They're not new, but they're certainly more numerous now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Try to refrain from generalising casual-minded groups as bad. I know a ton of casual players that are great at this game. Good groups recover. Bad groups do not. Being hardcore or casual is irrelevant. We have hardcore guilds on our realm that fall into the category that they would not recover, buy by throwing in insane amount of wipes they still get the bosses down.
    I've tried to be as clear as possible by using "casual-time" and "casual-attitude" when I've been talking about groups. Clearly, the odd exception will still exist and we both already know that.

    You're being needlessly pedantic here, and I'm not sure why. It looks like a thinly-veiled attempt at slighting people, which isn't going to make the discussion go any better.

    In fact, it'll bog it down in flaming. Let's try to avoid that.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I've tried to be as clear as possible by using "casual-time" and "casual-attitude" when I've been talking about groups. Clearly, the odd exception will still exist and we both already know that.

    You're being needlessly pedantic here, and I'm not sure why.
    Sorry if you took it as a direct offense, was nothing against you. Just grown overly tiresome of how the word 'casual' has been hijacked as a synonym for bad. I know so many people that are awesome players that play completely casual both in terms of time and attitude. It might be hard for you to believe considering our previous discussions but I consider myself to have quite the casual attitude myself.

    I just believe strongly that casual and bad should be seperated since it is not really nice to the people that are truely casual to put them in the same group as 'bad'.
    Especially in the example where I quoted you, where you first mention "Good groups", then you mention "casual-attitude groups" as they are the opposite of good, by extension bad.

    Either way, I apoligise if you took direct offense. More of a straw that broke the camels back than an attack towards you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Individual mechanics, or the volume of them, didn't kill people anywhere near as much throughout WotLK, certainly until the 2nd era of raiding began with heroic modes.

    They're not new, but they're certainly more numerous now.
    Again, I gotta say I disagree here. I do not think there are much more individual mechanics that kill people nowadays than since 3.1 (which is where modern raiding started)
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

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